Peter Collins In The Star

[nw42]

I'm no expert but it seems to me Mauger had the beating of what's his face if he had just been more patient and not gone for a gap that wasn't there. Don't like to tell riders how to ride bikes.

 

Agreed George, he had generated plenty of speed coming off the 2nd bend and you would have expected him to consolidate things on the next lap. Ivan was known for his cool head but perhaps because of what had gone on throughout the meeting, compounded by the ridiculous start, he had lost his composure and just went for the gap.

 

Also, what a great first lap by Olsen in heat 18, watched it many times and I still expect the Pole to pass him as they exit the 4th bend, good race.

[george.m]

On a positive note....

 

Isn't t'internet wonderful.

Getting to see all these riders and meetings from days gone by.

 

I only know of these sites - Pathe News, YouTube, Vimeo.

Can anyone advise of any others?

 

If we don't have a thread with links to meetings already on the forum, would anyone want one?

If there's demand I'll start it.

[moxey63]

 

I haven't read the article in question.

 

Given that PC has offered his opinion on a few aspects of the sport that he doesn't like. Did he offer any way to improve the sport for the better?

Like most of us who don't like some of the current rules, PC could only be speaking about what he feels served the sport best and were perhaps more worthy to its credibility and boasting of being a professional sport… and not some rule change dreamt up over a few ideas (they seemed good at the time, I can only assume) at some Promoters' cuddle session.

 

Perhaps PC is questioning why rules have been brought in that have just made the sport gimmicky and more likely doomed to a shelf-life equal to that of the latest X-Factor winner.

Edited December 27, 2013 by moxey63

[martinmauger]

Mauger ran a high gear that day so was slowish off the start but was passing almost for fun around turns 1 & 2. After yet another ragged start in the run off he caught Szczakiel half a lap ealier than he planned or expected, went for a gap that quickly closed and ended up on the track. In a World Final or SGP Final you may only get the one chance so you go for it, vis a vis Jason Crump v Rune Holta in 2003.

 

World Final races continuing with a rider prone on the track didn't end there: it happened to Ole Olsen in 1974, Egon Muller in 1976 & Mauger again in 1978.

 

Some weird starting procedures in the 1973 World Final, and some interesting referee decisions, but had he bided his time Mauger would surely have caught Szczakiel but as Mauger himself said "he (Szczakiel) became World Champ because I fell off and he didn't !"....

[SCOTLAND1314]

Like most of us who don't like some of the current rules, PC could only be speaking about what he feels served the sport best and were perhaps more worthy to its credibility and boasting of being a professional sport… and not some rule change dreamt up over a few ideas (they seemed good at the time, I can only assume) at some Promoters' cuddle session.

 

Perhaps PC is questioning why rules have been brought in that have just made the sport gimmicky and more likely doomed to a shelf-life equal to that of the latest X-Factor winner.

 

Sounds like the answer to my question was 'no'.

 

It is a pity that PC didn't offer up alternatives to the rules he doesn't like.

 

Interestingly he is critical of the play offs and yet indicates that they are a success.

 

Personally I like the concept of the play offs as they help keep interest in the season for many clubs.

 

Likewise the match result scoring is a positive for the sport imo. I don't know what the actual stats are but there can be fewer sports that an away win is harder to come by than speedway. Therefore to reward teams keeping it close is a major positive in my book.

 

The joker/tactical rule also helps keep meetings 'alive'.

 

Some of these rules have probably contributed to one of the most exciting finishes to any season i.e. Peterborough v Reading as well as keeping many more meetings interesting.

 

As for the movement at the start comment I would loathe to think that speedway goes back to riders moving all over the place at the start. Some of the old footage of riders pushing the tapes is just ... amateurish imo.

 

Speedway imo has a big task on its hands to make it more popular and personally I don't think the rules that have been mentioned have made too much difference either way.

 

It would have been nice to hear a positive comment or two coming from the old stars. For example the Edinburgh promotion made some interesting and popular changes to the way they run their Friday night entertainment and the public voted with their feet and crowds were up on the season before (maybe even seasons before).

 

It is the easiest thing in the world to criticise, personally I respect criticism more if it is accompanied by a credible alternative.

[Grachan]

On a positive note....

 

Isn't t'internet wonderful.

Getting to see all these riders and meetings from days gone by.

 

I only know of these sites - Pathe News, YouTube, Vimeo.

Can anyone advise of any others?

 

If we don't have a thread with links to meetings already on the forum, would anyone want one?

If there's demand I'll start it.

 

Yeah. do it. Maybe in Years Gone By.

[Guest]

On a positive note....

 

Isn't t'internet wonderful.

Getting to see all these riders and meetings from days gone by.

 

I only know of these sites - Pathe News, YouTube, Vimeo.

Can anyone advise of any others?

 

If we don't have a thread with links to meetings already on the forum, would anyone want one?

If there's demand I'll start it.

 

 

 

Yeah. do it. Maybe in Years Gone By.

 

This also carries a little old time speedway debate.

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/oldtimespeedway/info

Edited December 27, 2013 by Guest

[moxey63]

 

Sounds like the answer to my question was 'no'.

 

It is a pity that PC didn't offer up alternatives to the rules he doesn't like.

 

Interestingly he is critical of the play offs and yet indicates that they are a success.

 

Personally I like the concept of the play offs as they help keep interest in the season for many clubs.

 

Likewise the match result scoring is a positive for the sport imo. I don't know what the actual stats are but there can be fewer sports that an away win is harder to come by than speedway. Therefore to reward teams keeping it close is a major positive in my book.

 

The joker/tactical rule also helps keep meetings 'alive'.

 

Some of these rules have probably contributed to one of the most exciting finishes to any season i.e. Peterborough v Reading as well as keeping many more meetings interesting.

 

As for the movement at the start comment I would loathe to think that speedway goes back to riders moving all over the place at the start. Some of the old footage of riders pushing the tapes is just ... amateurish imo.

 

Speedway imo has a big task on its hands to make it more popular and personally I don't think the rules that have been mentioned have made too much difference either way.

 

It would have been nice to hear a positive comment or two coming from the old stars. For example the Edinburgh promotion made some interesting and popular changes to the way they run their Friday night entertainment and the public voted with their feet and crowds were up on the season before (maybe even seasons before).

 

It is the easiest thing in the world to criticise, personally I respect criticism more if it is accompanied by a credible alternative.

 

As I said, the current rules are silly if your preferred the ones they replaced.

 

The 2006 Reading v Peterborough match was exciting, but it also made the sport appear silly.. and indeed those rules were quickly tinkered with in speedway's off season - when I think 93 per cent of fans polled said they disagreed with them.

 

As for keeping the season alive - I recall 1993, Wolves v Belle Vue, went right down to the wire... and no silly gimmicks either. Proper league.

 

Give me a cup of tea with sugar, followed by a cup without, and I'd prefer the original, but wouldn't need to say I preferred the original - even if I said its replacement was horrid.

 

 

Just saying I didn't like the next cuppa - the te without sweet - would have told you that I preferred the tea that had sugar. Get it?

 

Reading PC's article, I knew by it that he didn't like some of the modern rules - the word "modern" telling me he preferred unmodern rules, meaning the old ones.

 

Perhaps PC needn't have said he liked the old ways best... in that he said he didn't like the new system was eough for me.

 

We have all said it... "I don't like so-and-so's new music."

 

In itself, a comment that says you prefer the old stuff...

 

Class ended.

Edited December 27, 2013 by moxey63

[george.m]

 

 

 

This also carries a little old time speedway debate.

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/oldtimespeedway/info

Cheers for the link. Have requested membership.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Thanks for your balanced reply Dave. Many good points that I also agree with.

BTW the green helmet was not at the request of SKY. There was going to be software produced and a virtual race produced with graphics from equipment on the bikes and at the track. The green helmet cover was required for punters to use their remotes in the the UK and especially the Far East for betting. I saw the demo of it and it did look promising but never delivered

the introduction of the green helmet colour helped colourblind people of which i am one. Just another example of stupid idea's of which speedway seems to have cornered the market. I said it before speedway has always been a garden shed raw type of sport .its dirty and basic and thats it apeal .its trying to be something its not ,its trying to be like F1 and failing and in the process its also alienating the people who love it Edited December 28, 2013 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[bellevueace]

We can't go back to that because the world has moved on.

 

People have more choices on how and what to do with their leisure time. Going back to the old days is not an option.

 

Just opening the doors and expecting punters to flood in is about as likely as George Formby releasing a no 1 album.

 

Yes learn from the past but for gods sake stop trying to re-create it, it ain't gonna happen. Don't forget that for every old boy who has years of experience and seen it and done it , there's also a handful of promoters who think the same. Just look at every other sport that has left speedway trailing in its wake, has it stayed the same as 30. 40,50 years ago ??

The world has not moved on in so much that paying punters want value for money, they want to see the worlds best riders on well prepared race tracks, and want good racing rather than the processions we get all to often nowadays. To think we should go back to black leathers, two valve japs and monkey masks is missing the point, going back would mean having the worlds best riders in the elite league, better racing on better prepared tracks and having a British team that could actually compete. Take football has it stayed the same for 50 years you ask well generally yes, the basic principle of the game remains the same now as when finney and mathews played, mind if they had brought in ludicrous rules like a goal counting double, an equivalent joker rule to be used in world cups etc it certainly wouldnt be taken seriously. The actual fact is modern day speedway does not hold the same appeal at all to the general public immeterial to what other activities are around, if the product was right people would support it that the crowds at the top level mainly fall below 1000 in many cases shows the sport has deteriorated dramatically over the years. Sometime you have to take two steps back to take a big step forward.

[stratton]

Indeed, if promoters put more effort into making sure the basics were right then we wouldn't need stupid gimmicks.

That is what the sport is judged on in my opinion,decent racing well prepared tracks having a great night out and believing i have had value for Money.I am not that bothered about the facilities angle,god i have put up with Swindon long anough i don't know how others feel but at times last year at meeting,s i could not wait to get home.

[Ray Stadia]

That is what the sport is judged on in my opinion,decent racing well prepared tracks having a great night out and believing i have had value for Money.I am not that bothered about the facilities angle,god i have put up with Swindon long anough i don't know how others feel but at times last year at meeting,s i could not wait to get home.

I take it you mean you wanted to get home due to poor racing and badly prepared track, not the stadium facilities Sidney?

[E I Addio]

The world has not moved on in so much that paying punters want value for money, they want to see the worlds best riders on well prepared race tracks, and want good racing rather than the processions we get all to often nowadays.

 

........but a lot of them are not prepared to pay for it. Therein lies a large part of the problem. The forum is full of people who say £17 is too much to pay. In a difficult economic climate it is understandable that many can't afford it. Those are the ones that expect to see world class riders being paid peanuts.

 

There is also a fair body of opinion that says they prefer NL or PL meetings because in their opinion the racing is better, so world class riders are not a draw as far as they are concerned.

 

Do the sums. After you deduct VAT the promoter is left with a little over £14 from the original £17. By the time you allow for concessions and season tickets the admission per punter averages out at around £13 per head. Now, instead of making bald statements about what you think would happen, tell us how much it would cost to attract the "worlds best riders" (those are your words not mine) and how many extra punters it would take through the gate to balance the books, taking into account rain-offs and cold wet evenings where a lot are put off by the weather, but stadium rents etc still have to be paid.

 

This is part of the problem. People have these grand ideas about getting big crowds back but nobody is prepared to put pen to paper and work out what it would all cost. Have you any idea at all what it would cost to get the worlds best e.g. Greg, Emil, Nicki etc to commit to a full season over here.? I doubt it.

 

The bottom;line is that you can you can't please everyone, and speedway now probably has more diverse opinions among the fans than almost any other sport. Of course seeing the worlds best for £10 admission is a great idea, but whether it would pay is a totally different matter.

[chunky]

The funny thing here is how people are constantly referring to the ragged start in the Mauger/Szczakiel runoff, like it was something unique. When I look at other old footage - particularly from FIM events, it's incredible to see how poor many of the starts were.

 

Steve

[stratton]

I take it you mean you wanted to get home due to poor racing and badly prepared track, not the stadium facilities Sidney?

Yes Ray the odd good race here and there,but the stoppages and never being prompt on time with there start time was frustrating.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Thought the PC article was pretty vapid to be honest - whether it was the raw material or editorialised that way.

 

In general, I've found competitors to be last who should be asked about how to run their sport. With the odd exception, they've very little grasp of promotional and administrational complexities, and even more so for those at the top end of their profession. If it were so easy in speedway, then why don't riders put their money where their mouths are and show everyone how things should be done, but the reality is very few will.

 

PC is entitled to his opinion - probably more so than some - but I seriously doubt speedway would be in much better shape if things revered back to the way they were in his day. There's been a whole host of social and economic changes in the past 30 years that have done for the sport, and whether or not there's a KOC or not is not going to change that.

 

Reminiscences about the 'good old days' no doubt appeal to many of those buying the Star, but are not really any blueprint for the future. There are undoubtedly some things in the past that did work better, but the sport still went into decline before 'playoffs', tactical rides and all sorts of other paraphernalia were thought of.

[E I Addio]

Yes Ray the odd good race here and there,but the stoppages and never being prompt on time with there start time was frustrating.

 

That is a good point Sidney, but something PC never mentioned. I am sure you are old enough to remember the days when riders like Terry Betts would change into their leathers in the car on the way down, arrive a few minutes before the start, get the bike off the car and go straight out on parade. I am not saying it should be last-minute stuff like that today but it always amazes me how riders can be arriving from around 5 pm onwards and by 7-30 or 8 pm some of them are still not ready to go out on parade.

[stratton]

That is a good point Sidney, but something PC never mentioned. I am sure you are old enough to remember the days when riders like Terry Betts would change into their leathers in the car on the way down, arrive a few minutes before the start, get the bike off the car and go straight out on parade. I am not saying it should be last-minute stuff like that today but it always amazes me how riders can be arriving from around 5 pm onwards and by 7-30 or 8 pm some of them are still not ready to go out on parade.

 

Good point i can always remember the riders having a skid before the start.Parades were never as boring as they are now, usually 7.35 tops now yawn yawn you are lucky to be home at 10 o'clock.

[bellevueace]

 

........but a lot of them are not prepared to pay for it. Therein lies a large part of the problem. The forum is full of people who say £17 is too much to pay. In a difficult economic climate it is understandable that many can't afford it. Those are the ones that expect to see world class riders being paid peanuts.

 

There is also a fair body of opinion that says they prefer NL or PL meetings because in their opinion the racing is better, so world class riders are not a draw as far as they are concerned.

 

Do the sums. After you deduct VAT the promoter is left with a little over £14 from the original £17. By the time you allow for concessions and season tickets the admission per punter averages out at around £13 per head. Now, instead of making bald statements about what you think would happen, tell us how much it would cost to attract the "worlds best riders" (those are your words not mine) and how many extra punters it would take through the gate to balance the books, taking into account rain-offs and cold wet evenings where a lot are put off by the weather, but stadium rents etc still have to be paid.

 

This is part of the problem. People have these grand ideas about getting big crowds back but nobody is prepared to put pen to paper and work out what it would all cost. Have you any idea at all what it would cost to get the worlds best e.g. Greg, Emil, Nicki etc to commit to a full season over here.? I doubt it.

 

The bottom;line is that you can you can't please everyone, and speedway now probably has more diverse opinions among the fans than almost any other sport. Of course seeing the worlds best for £10 admission is a great idea, but whether it would pay is a totally different matter.

Overheads still had to be met by promoters of yesteryear and also when the entertainment tax was brought in, the difference now is modern day promoters dont actually promote, they bring in some ludicrous rule ie the T/R or joker open the gate and expect people to flock in, im betting all those that prefer PL as the racing is better would change their minds if the likes of saufutinov and all the other top riders that dont race in the UK were in our league, presently people are being asked to pay elite prices for a premier product, lets not also forget even with 15 heats compared to the 13 of old fans are still short changed as the old second halves now dont exsist, its a simple sport with four riders turning left for 60 seconds, that the sport has gone from 60,000 to under 1,000 for league meetings shows instead of writing off yesteryear as people looking through rose tinted specs theres lessons from that era to be learned today.