Peter Collins In The Star

[E I Addio]

. Even Szczakiel, (sorry Sidney) deserved his title. It wasn't a one off performance as many, including you, would like to believe and on the day,

 

 

 

I don't want to wander too far off topic but that comment shows how the discussion is entering the realms of fantasy.

 

So Szczakiel's performance wasn't a one -off? Can you just remind us of his consistently world class performances outside of Poland ? Apart from his 0 points in the '71 Final that is. I can't find any reference to him in any other World Finals, unless he paid to get in.. And what did he score in the Daily Mirror World Series two moths before the winning the World Final ? Zero I believe. He then rode at Wembley in the WTC a couple of weeks after becoming world champion and managed another world class 0.. Hardly puts him among the all time greats but more importantly suggests his WC win was a bit of a one off performance.

 

His infamous run off with Mauger for the title is on youtube. Look at it carefully

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw

 

Was the Pole allowed to get a roller or whatt ? The rules require the riders to have an equal start. Is right that in a run-off to decide the Speedway Championship of the World this sort of roller should be allowed ?

 

Look at the start marshal. He stands still and doesn't even raise his arms to signify the riders are under starters orders, Szczakiel rolls and the ref lets the tapes go. Look at Maugers throttle hand. The riders are supposed to be allowed 1.5 seconds between coming under starters orders and the tapes going up, to allow them to get their engines spinning. Mauger is only just opening his throttle as he sees Szczakiel starting to roll. Clearly there was no proper signal to put the riders under starters orders.

 

The whole attitude of the referee is shown after Mauger crashes. He is lying unconscious on the track being attended by a doctor, For all anyone knew at that stage Maugers life could have hung in the balance yet the referee allows the "race" to continue. Szczakiel then demonstrates his arrogance by coming round on the next lap, on seeing the unconscious Mauger and the medics on the track , instead of shutting off he deliberately rides wide to within a couple of feet of Mauger and showers both him and the medics with shale. Disgraceful behaviour

 

Earlier in the meeting even Dave Lanning had commented that the Polish authorities were making up the rules as they went along. Putting all these facts together there is no doubt in my mind that the whole thing was a stitch up. The Poles were desperate to have a world champion and Szczakiel knew the ref was going to let the tapes go when he rolled..

 

To my mind this was the event that makes the case for the GP system. We had some good one-off finals after that but it was increasingly a game of chance.

[stratton]

I don't want to wander too far off topic but that comment shows how the discussion is entering the realms of fantasy.

 

So Szczakiel's performance wasn't a one -off? Can you just remind us of his consistently world class performances outside of Poland ? Apart from his 0 points in the '71 Final that is. I can't find any reference to him in any other World Finals, unless he paid to get in.. And what did he score in the Daily Mirror World Series two moths before the winning the World Final ? Zero I believe. He then rode at Wembley in the WTC a couple of weeks after becoming world champion and managed another world class 0.. Hardly puts him among the all time greats but more importantly suggests his WC win was a bit of a one off performance.

 

His infamous run off with Mauger for the title is on youtube. Look at it carefully

 

Was the Pole allowed to get a roller or whatt ? The rules require the riders to have an equal start. Is right that in a run-off to decide the Speedway Championship of the World this sort of roller should be allowed ?

 

Look at the start marshal. He stands still and doesn't even raise his arms to signify the riders are under starters orders, Szczakiel rolls and the ref lets the tapes go. Look at Maugers throttle hand. The riders are supposed to be allowed 1.5 seconds between coming under starters orders and the tapes going up, to allow them to get their engines spinning. Mauger is only just opening his throttle as he sees Szczakiel starting to roll. Clearly there was no proper signal to put the riders under starters orders.

 

The whole attitude of the referee is shown after Mauger crashes. He is lying unconscious on the track being attended by a doctor, For all anyone knew at that stage Maugers life could have hung in the balance yet the referee allows the "race" to continue. Szczakiel then demonstrates his arrogance by coming round on the next lap, on seeing the unconscious Mauger and the medics on the track , instead of shutting off he deliberately rides wide to within a couple of feet of Mauger and showers both him and the medics with shale. Disgraceful behaviour

 

Earlier in the meeting even Dave Lanning had commented that the Polish authorities were making up the rules as they went along. Putting all these facts together there is no doubt in my mind that the whole thing was a stitch up. The Poles were desperate to have a world champion and Szczakiel knew the ref was going to let the tapes go when he rolled..

 

To my mind this was the event that makes the case for the GP system. We had some good one-off finals after that but it was increasingly a game of chance.

You are right about the rollers,but lets be honest Ivan had his fair share over the years.Also in that run off it was his riding that cost him the title.

[SCB]

Ivan won a lot down to psychology. People knew you couldn't beat Ivan, Ivan was a pro. But in that race the Poles beat Ivan, wound him up and he made a silly mistake. Ivan threw that away.

[Gemini]

First time I've watched that clip and I can't believe how the referee allowed that start - well it wasn't really a start as the riders didn't come to a stop beforehand at the gate anyway. Terrible also how the 'race' was allowed to continue for another two laps while Ivan lay on the track.

[E I Addio]

You are right about the rollers,but lets be honest Ivan had his fair share over the years.Also in that run off it was his riding that cost him the title.

 

I agree Ivan had more than his share of rollers and I didn't like him for that reason.

 

The point is though, should the World Championship be decided on that sort of unsatisfactory start ? In the context of the discussion we are having my point is that the GP system does away with a rider becoming World Champion by a bit of luck or cheating on the day. I understand the arguments about selection and qualification but nobody can say that Tai won his title on the basis of luck or gate positions. These things even themselves out over a GP series.

[moxey63]

The way I see it, PC was saying what I agreed with... so I liked his opinions. In a way, it's like many posters on this forum, when a celeb says he eith likes or dislikes speedway... and said posters either send them flowers of tribute or angry letters to their 90 year-old grannies, depending on the celeb's opinion.

 

I am not saying PC is right with his views... but I agree with them. Those saying there were just as many daft rules about when PC was active... tells me our medical and mental care has improved over a couple of decades, cos the terraces were pretty healthily busied with a mass sprinkling of daft people. But we still have daft people prepared to stand there, watching Golden Doubles, Jokers and Tug-O'-Wars between races.

 

Thing is... where have all those daft people gone, people who put up with as many daft rules in the 70s and 80s? In fact, is it that the daft people remain on the terraces and that the sane ones (including myself) have gone? If so, perahps these are the ones our National Health should be focusing on and GPs encouraged to presribed MORE pills to. . those paying sums of £17 per week to enter a sport... only popular because it is staged away from pantomime season. Can hear fans now... "He's behind you"... in the next Golden Double race that's been already scripted.

 

You decide...

 

I'll be here until the medication finally kicks in

Edited December 26, 2013 by moxey63

[stratton]

I agree Ivan had more than his share of rollers and I didn't like him for that reason.

 

The point is though, should the World Championship be decided on that sort of unsatisfactory start ? In the context of the discussion we are having my point is that the GP system does away with a rider becoming World Champion by a bit of luck or cheating on the day. I understand the arguments about selection and qualification but nobody can say that Tai won his title on the basis of luck or gate positions. These things even themselves out over a GP series.

No you are right and i was as chuffed as anyone,but in all honesty Tai should not of even been in lasts years WC was that fair.?Like the old WC you know the rules take your good fortune as it comes along Tai did and he was a deserved winner. Edited December 26, 2013 by sidney

[RobMcCaffery]

We can't go back to that because the world has moved on.

 

People have more choices on how and what to do with their leisure time. Going back to the old days is not an option.

 

Just opening the doors and expecting punters to flood in is about as likely as George Formby releasing a no 1 album.

 

Yes learn from the past but for gods sake stop trying to re-create it, it ain't gonna happen. Don't forget that for every old boy who has years of experience and seen it and done it , there's also a handful of promoters who think the same. Just look at every other sport that has left speedway trailing in its wake, has it stayed the same as 30. 40,50 years ago ??

There's a heck of a lot of difference between correcting appalling mistakes and re-creating the past.

 

Anyway, it's clear that I'm wasting my time here - the sport's doing fine and can carry on blithely as it is.with no need for change, just a bit of tinkering round the edges. Ignore anyone who recommends a tougher course, after all the world's moved on and nobody can achieve anything.

 

The sport's trying to live on gates that would have closed any track in the not too recent past. At what point does anyone accept there's a problem - when the gates hit single figures? I listed ideals earlier that I still believe in. Obviously I'm very much in the minority so it's pointless to try to help.

 

"Mr.Speedway, I have news, you're seriously ill and need to change your lifetstyle"

 

"No, why should I? The world's moved on and I can't do anything about it. I was healthy once, no need to re-create that, it's in the past"

Edited December 26, 2013 by rmc

[orion]

There's a heck of a lot of difference between correcting appalling mistakes and re-creating the past.

 

Anyway, it's clear that I'm wasting my time here - the sport's doing fine and can carry on blithely as it is.with no need for change, just a bit of tinkering round the edges. Ignore anyone who recommends a tougher course, after all the world's moved on and nobody can achieve anything.

 

The sport's trying to live on gates that would have closed any track in the not too recent past. At what point does anyone accept there's a problem - when the gates hit single figures? I listed ideals earlier that I still believe in. Obviously I'm very much in the minority so it's pointless to try to help.

 

"Mr.Speedway, I have news, you're seriously ill and need to change your lifetstyle"

 

"No, why should I? The world's moved on and I can't do anything about it. I was healthy once, no need to re-create that, it's in the past"

I Think every fan accepts there are problems in the sport what most understand thou is going back to the rules 25 years ago won't work now .

[Ray Stadia]

There's a heck of a lot of difference between correcting appalling mistakes and re-creating the past.

 

Anyway, it's clear that I'm wasting my time here - the sport's doing fine and can carry on blithely as it is.with no need for change, just a bit of tinkering round the edges. Ignore anyone who recommends a tougher course, after all the world's moved on and nobody can achieve anything.

 

The sport's trying to live on gates that would have closed any track in the not too recent past. At what point does anyone accept there's a problem - when the gates hit single figures? I listed ideals earlier that I still believe in. Obviously I'm very much in the minority so it's pointless to try to help.

 

"Mr.Speedway, I have news, you're seriously ill and need to change your lifetstyle"

 

"No, why should I? The world's moved on and I can't do anything about it. I was healthy once, no need to re-create that, it's in the past"

To be honest Rob, although some forum members suggest Speedway has moved on from the past, the truth is, it hasn't. The most spectacular changes to Speedway is the engine is laid down, the riders now wear Kevlar suits and not leather suits and the suits are team co-ordinated. Air fences, oh and the helmet covers don't ping off anymore. Speedway's biggest problem is not enough people are watching it and too many tracks are wobbly and their future is on a knife edge. At the end of the day and has been mentioned by many, what we want to see is 4 guys, doing 4 laps, racing each other on a machine that resembles and sounds like a Speedway bike. And leaves a nice smell in the air! The problem with the 'Speedway Industry' is the cost is too high for the promoters, the riders and I think the fans too. I still believe you can see 4 blokes going round a track, providing entertainment and enjoying their racing, at a reduced cost. How? Strictly regulate pay. Promoters, so I have been told, on this forum, insist riders have at least 2 machines, well that should be outlawed and a rider should be allowed to run one good machine. If he wants more in his workshop, up to him, but he turns up with one only. The track, ideally, has a track spare for breakdowns or if not possible, team members lend their bikes on breakdowns, crashes etc. And a sensible reserve back-up. Additionally, try and encourage team members to travel together to reduce the travel cost.

[george.m]

I don't want to wander too far off topic but that comment shows how the discussion is entering the realms of fantasy.

 

So Szczakiel's performance wasn't a one -off? Can you just remind us of his consistently world class performances outside of Poland ? Apart from his 0 points in the '71 Final that is. I can't find any reference to him in any other World Finals, unless he paid to get in.. And what did he score in the Daily Mirror World Series two moths before the winning the World Final ? Zero I believe. He then rode at Wembley in the WTC a couple of weeks after becoming world champion and managed another world class 0.. Hardly puts him among the all time greats but more importantly suggests his WC win was a bit of a one off performance.

 

His infamous run off with Mauger for the title is on youtube. Look at it carefully

 

Was the Pole allowed to get a roller or whatt ? The rules require the riders to have an equal start. Is right that in a run-off to decide the Speedway Championship of the World this sort of roller should be allowed ?

 

Look at the start marshal. He stands still and doesn't even raise his arms to signify the riders are under starters orders, Szczakiel rolls and the ref lets the tapes go. Look at Maugers throttle hand. The riders are supposed to be allowed 1.5 seconds between coming under starters orders and the tapes going up, to allow them to get their engines spinning. Mauger is only just opening his throttle as he sees Szczakiel starting to roll. Clearly there was no proper signal to put the riders under starters orders.

 

The whole attitude of the referee is shown after Mauger crashes. He is lying unconscious on the track being attended by a doctor, For all anyone knew at that stage Maugers life could have hung in the balance yet the referee allows the "race" to continue. Szczakiel then demonstrates his arrogance by coming round on the next lap, on seeing the unconscious Mauger and the medics on the track , instead of shutting off he deliberately rides wide to within a couple of feet of Mauger and showers both him and the medics with shale. Disgraceful behaviour

 

Earlier in the meeting even Dave Lanning had commented that the Polish authorities were making up the rules as they went along. Putting all these facts together there is no doubt in my mind that the whole thing was a stitch up. The Poles were desperate to have a world champion and Szczakiel knew the ref was going to let the tapes go when he rolled..

 

To my mind this was the event that makes the case for the GP system. We had some good one-off finals after that but it was increasingly a game of chance.

You raise a few interesting points there EI Addio, and difficult to argue against.

I always thought it was strange that the race continued with Mauger lying on the track.

However I'd always put it down to my lack of knowledge of the finer details of the rules back then.

I've always though that the start was farcical. From the point of view that it is such an unsatisfactory way to start a race, especially one of this importance, and it seemed acceptable back then compared with what we have today. Again though, Through my lack of rule understanding I've never thought it was anything but legitimate.

 

Got me thinking there.

[YerRopes]

DtC

 

If PC is against all the main changes that have been brought in in later decades, it can only mean

A, he wants to return to the 'good old days' which his supporters on this thread seem to think he meant ,or,

B, he has some other suppa duppa solutions that he is keeping to himself.

 

As that guy from Sunderland keeps saying "You decide"

 

 

Have only got to Page 6 on this thread - ie. the above post from the BSF's self promoted 'know it all' on every subject..

 

As I currently have some spare time as the wife is getting ready..

 

Tsunami, please get out of your arse - don't tell us what PC said - we can all read

[Tsunami]

Yerropes

 

If that had come from anybody else, it might have had a bit of credibility. As it's you, who cares.

 

NB my favourite stalker

[george.m]

Yerropes

 

If that had come from anybody else, it might have had a bit of credibility. As it's you, who cares.

 

NB my favourite stalker

Not Norris123?

Spoilt for choice handsome!

[Grachan]

 

 

I don't want to wander too far off topic but that comment shows how the discussion is entering the realms of fantasy.

 

So Szczakiel's performance wasn't a one -off? Can you just remind us of his consistently world class performances outside of Poland ? Apart from his 0 points in the '71 Final that is. I can't find any reference to him in any other World Finals, unless he paid to get in.. And what did he score in the Daily Mirror World Series two moths before the winning the World Final ? Zero I believe. He then rode at Wembley in the WTC a couple of weeks after becoming world champion and managed another world class 0.. Hardly puts him among the all time greats but more importantly suggests his WC win was a bit of a one off performance.

 

His infamous run off with Mauger for the title is on youtube. Look at it carefully

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw

 

Was the Pole allowed to get a roller or whatt ? The rules require the riders to have an equal start. Is right that in a run-off to decide the Speedway Championship of the World this sort of roller should be allowed ?

 

Look at the start marshal. He stands still and doesn't even raise his arms to signify the riders are under starters orders, Szczakiel rolls and the ref lets the tapes go. Look at Maugers throttle hand. The riders are supposed to be allowed 1.5 seconds between coming under starters orders and the tapes going up, to allow them to get their engines spinning. Mauger is only just opening his throttle as he sees Szczakiel starting to roll. Clearly there was no proper signal to put the riders under starters orders.

 

The whole attitude of the referee is shown after Mauger crashes. He is lying unconscious on the track being attended by a doctor, For all anyone knew at that stage Maugers life could have hung in the balance yet the referee allows the "race" to continue. Szczakiel then demonstrates his arrogance by coming round on the next lap, on seeing the unconscious Mauger and the medics on the track , instead of shutting off he deliberately rides wide to within a couple of feet of Mauger and showers both him and the medics with shale. Disgraceful behaviour

 

Earlier in the meeting even Dave Lanning had commented that the Polish authorities were making up the rules as they went along. Putting all these facts together there is no doubt in my mind that the whole thing was a stitch up. The Poles were desperate to have a world champion and Szczakiel knew the ref was going to let the tapes go when he rolled..

 

To my mind this was the event that makes the case for the GP system. We had some good one-off finals after that but it was increasingly a game of chance.

 

The incident that caused Dave Lanning to accuse the Poles is here at about 3 minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eOmHuX2Lk

 

To be fair, Dave Lanning's commentary on that World Final was nonsense. The original referee's decision (which Lanning was complaining about) seemed fine to me. Plech was leading, was brought off by the Chlynovski. The ref excluded the Russian and ordered a re-run. What's the problem with that? It was only when everyone started going crazy about it that the ref changed the decision under pressure, so it was a weak referee. The original decision seemed ok to me.

 

And as for the Poles trying to get a champion and it being a stitch up - had that been the case, then Plech would have been awarded heat 19 to put him in the title run-off, but wasn't. He was leading at the time of incident after all.

 

As for Szczakiel, he was definitely a bit of a surprise champion, but he had scored a maximum in a World Pairs Final previously so he certainly wasn't a no hoper.

 

And regarding the run off. Mauger fell off. Yes, the race should have been stopped, but even if it had Szczakiel would still have won. There was some strange refereeing going on that night, but Jerzy Szczakiel won the tile fair and square and it was another Pole - Zenon Plech - who suffered most from the poor refereeing.

[Grachan]

As you know nobody has suggested 'going back' but as a matter of interest which 25 year old rule "won't work now"?

 

 

 

The one about putting British juniors in the reserve berths of top flight teams? That must be been about 25 years ago.

[stratton]

The incident that caused Dave Lanning to accuse the Poles is here at about 3 minutes:

 

To be fair, Dave Lanning's commentary on that World Final was nonsense. The original referee's decision (which Lanning was complaining about) seemed fine to me. Plech was leading, was brought off by the Chlynovski. The ref excluded the Russian and ordered a re-run. What's the problem with that? It was only when everyone started going crazy about it that the ref changed the decision under pressure, so it was a weak referee. The original decision seemed ok to me.

 

And as for the Poles trying to get a champion and it being a stitch up - had that been the case, then Plech would have been awarded heat 19 to put him in the title run-off, but wasn't. He was leading at the time of incident after all.

 

As for Szczakiel, he was definitely a bit of a surprise champion, but he had scored a maximum in a World Pairs Final previously so he certainly wasn't a no hoper.

 

And regarding the run off. Mauger fell off. Yes, the race should have been stopped, but even if it had Szczakiel would still have won. There was some strange refereeing going on that night, but Jerzy Szczakiel won the tile fair and square and it was another Pole - Zenon Plech - who suffered most from the poor refereeing.

Spot on Grachan, i think Addio forgot about Szczakiel,s performance in the World Pairs.? Mauger said himself on home soil he was a threat, but you are right about Plech he was the darling of the Poles and he came out with the rough edge of the stick in this meeting.Looking back Mauger really should of won 7 titles? saying that i don't class him the best of all time anyway so maybe it was justice.

[SCOTLAND1314]

I have often been regarded as a dinosaur, a misery guts, a speedway-caller-of-names, but after reading Peter Collins’ article in the current Speedway Star, I am not alone in my honest views of the sport, which we all love.

 

The Master of Belle Vue’s Past has opinions that mostly echo mine – he thinks the Play-Offs have been detrimental to the British season, although admits they have been a success. He says (and I agree) that most league meetings are of no importance and that teams can fine-tune for the October PO showdown.

 

He believes also that the Play Offs have shoved the KO Cup onto the backburner and dwarfed it in importance, that the Golden Double and Joker rules are pathetic for serious speedway connoisseurs (like me and PC), and that the four, three, two and one match points for a team winning depending on how big of a win it attains is also debatable.

 

Another one of his gripes, races being called back for false starts/riders jumping the start. PC (and again I agree) says if a riders makes the starts (long as he doesn’t touch the tapes), then it is anticipation and not a jump-start. I have seen Stuart Robson punished several times on SKY for anticipating the start, the race being re-run despite Robson not doing anything other than having quick reflexes at that perfect time.

 

Happy Christmas PC… and Best Wishes for 2014.

 

Least I can sleep now knowing I’m not talking tosh, and somebody agrees with my views.

 

What better man to have agreeing with old moxey63

 

I haven't read the article in question.

 

Given that PC has offered his opinion on a few aspects of the sport that he doesn't like. Did he offer any way to improve the sport for the better?

[Grachan]

 

The problem was the Russians, as their man emerged as a contender they decided it was going to be a Russian champion. When their man was (correctly?) excluded from heat 19 they threw their teddy out and decided that if the champion wasn't going to be Russian then it wasn't going to be a Pole either, hence the referees 'cough' change of mind. No doubt the delegation that visited the referee's box mentioned something about Siberia being quite cold in the winter.

 

 

 

Ha! Yes, you could well be correct about the Russians.

[george.m]

I'm no expert but it seems to me Mauger had the beating of what's his face if he had just been more patient and not gone for a gap that wasn't there. Don't like to tell riders how to ride bikes.