Peter Collins In The Star

[Tsunami]

Moxey

You are deliberately making the same mistake of a previous poster on this thread. Just because some of us do not want, or think, we can go back to the past, does NOT mean that we are all lovey dovey about the current situation. The sport needs freshening up, but everything that is introduced or required by our broadcasters, is opposed by the tradionalists who main about the current situation but champion what was on the old days. It is not an option to serve the same product and everyone, including the traditionalists, need to change as well to embrace it. Traditionalist think that they alone speak for everyone, but they are heavily outnumbered IMO by the rest if us, who either agree with them, or can put up with them as the product of 4 guys racing each other around 4 laps iis still on offer and the rest if trivial.

Listen or read what others really say, and don't tag them with what you want to believe is their view. We are NOT just defending what's on offer, more an acceptance that going and looking backwards is not the way forward.

[Dave the Mic]

Wrong as in one Off World final many a time a bad draw would leave you with two bad gates giving you little chance of winning ...most of the time it was a Lottery ..this is what I mean about old fans can't find nothing wrong with the old days. this is a classic example .

Sorry, but this is a very silly post. Mauger won 6, Fundin 5, Briggo 4, Olsen 3, Gundo 3, Hans 3, Moore 2, Penhall 2, Craven 2, Young 2 etc Never mind the great riders who won a single title, PC, Lee, Janno to name three. All of whom were fully deserving of their titles. Even Szczakiel, (sorry Sidney) deserved his title. It wasn't a one off performance as many, including you, would like to believe and on the day, the man who was arguably the bests around at the time made a massive error, whilst Jerzy didn't. So who deserved it more?

 

Analyse the best riders in the world over the one off period and the list of riders that won titles. They won't be much different. Do you think the likes of Olsen, Mauger, Briggo thought the way you do?

 

As an example, I was at Munich in '89, which was the worst track in one off final history. There wasn't a single genuine overtake in 21 races. Who won? Nielsen. Why? Because he had a load of bites at the cherry over 10 rounds? No, because he needed to make five starts and did so. The only other rider that could arguably have had a chance at Munich was Gundersen and Hans wasted him. Lottery? No, Hans had to make five starts to win that day and he did that better than the other 15.

 

Or as another example, take PC's win in '76. Lottery? Don't make me laugh. Do you think the gate positions mattered in heats 3 and 7, when he went past five riders for fun, including Louis and Simmo, arguably two of the best around at the time. No. He was just the best and gate positions meant nothing. And before you say they were both one off meetings. It matters not as Nielsen in '89 and PC in '76 were the best and demonstrated that all season, as the vast majority of winners of finals did too.

. A great post Dave, you are like me we both liked the Old Finals and we were both very lucky to see them.You also seem to acknowledge that things have moved on and you have also said like me that things were not always perfect back then.The GP series i have come around to liking it,but at some of the rounds i do get bored with it.The old World FInals what i liked about it there was a chance for the UNDERDOG national league riders could pitch in with the big boys they were involved.Now dress it up as much as you like it is a closed shop in reality,and your best point being we all know they're are a few in the field now like years ago that have zilch chance of winning the championship.In my memory i think JERZY was the only winner who in my mind didnt deserve to win a title.Even Egon who we all knew was a great motorcyclist deserved to win on the day he was the best.So in all those years of the old WC maybe? we had 1 undeserved winner that isn't bad is it all the true greats won with a load along the way that were unlucky.

I did enjoy the world finals and I enjoy the GP's too as it goes, both have flaws but I don't subscribe to the view that the current system is necessarily fairer. I don't see how it can be, when riders are handed a place in a championship rather than qualify. Incidentally, part of my enjoyment of the old system was the qualification system - I know it meant that some deserving riders fell by the wayside, including some of my favourites, which always disappointed me, but I still enjoyed it and the final, even though my favourite rider wasn't there. For me, that was part of the appeal. The GP is a closed shop as you say and also as you say, only a handful of riders in the GP, as in one off finals actually really have a chance of winning it.

 

You may have read my other post about Jerzy. He may not have had the stellar career of Mauger or PC even, but he was no mug and he made Ivan look silly that day, simply by not budging. As such, I sort of feel he deserved it that day as Ivan made a massive mistake and Jerzy didn't. That said, I fully accept your view and that of countless others who have lamented his victory.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Dave the Mic

[orion]

Football, both rugby codes, ice and field hockey, NFL. That enough? The point you can change your side at any time regardless of being in front or behind is exactly the point. So my point isn't void. In any case, you can bring a reserve in a any time in speedway, even if you are 20 in front. So the difference is?

 

 

Sorry the rule we are talking is about double points ..I watched Football and sports all my life I can't remember a player coming on scoreing a try or a goal that counts double of what is normally scores so unless you can show me when that has happened the point you were trying to make is void .

[george.m]

Human nature being what it is we all tend to remember the key moments, good and bad, in the past and relate to them.

The past isn't one finite moment in time.

Life moves in the circles, there are few new ideas. Most have already been thought of or tried in one way or another before.

Some are appropriate for short spells some for longer.

Discussions about improvement are human nature.

I can remember discussions about improving speedway since I first started to go in the '60s.

The sport wasn't perfect then and it never will be.

The only thing that is consistent is ... Change.

 

What is important is that we learn from our mistakes, have an open mind and consider all options for improvement in this continually moving feast ... Better known as "life".

Edited December 25, 2013 by george.m

[Halifaxtiger]

Are you suggesting the tac sub rule where a team 6 points down could replace a rider with another in better form? I'm sure you aren't, perhaps I have misunderstood your posting. If, however, you are suggesting that rule was a laughing stock, then you can't be serious? A team member performing poorly, replaced by another on a like for like basis - doesn't that happen in the biggest sport in the world?

Indeed i did. And there are those who have not only suggested he has nothing to offer (SCB wasnt one of them) but some on here also simply insulted one of the best speedway riders ever, which they should be ashamed of, regardless of his opinion being being good, bad or indifferent.

Tsunami, most of the changes of a tactical nature were done simply to appease Sky, such as the green helmet cover and double points rules. The reserves plan is a good plan, but in Sweden and Poland, they are of a higher standard in most cases and many of these youngsters will trail round half a lap behind. Not that the principle isn't a good one, because clearly it is. I don't think anyone is angry with the sport as such, just the way it has been run into the ground by those in charge.

 

I don't thnk anyone is advocating a return to some of the things you refer to per se, but the reality is, much of what was good about speedway then has disappeared from the sport today and it is on its knees in many ways. Coincidence? Possibly, possibly not, but the reality is, many of the changes made have not helped one bit.

I'm not narrow minded, not at all. I have spoken to many outside the sport, that I have tried to introduce to it, but have lasted one meeting because some of the rules don't make any sense. I isn't about my opinion but common sense. Riders riding for two or three different teams a week for one team and against it in the same week and riders finishing second scoring more than those that win a race. Even in the GP's riders winning GP's but not scoring the most points. It's not my opinion, but those of neutral fans who haven't seen speedway and I have no argument against them, because THEY are right. And they won't go back.

 

It won't stop me either. I love speedway and that is why these kind of issues are so vital. PC didn't suggest going back, but suggested that the steps "forward" we're anything but. I suspect if someone asked him for input for some new ideas he would proffer some.

So having to qualify for the World Final was stupid? Of course. And replacing an out of form rider with another in better form was stupid too. Presumably substitutes of a similar nature in football and rugby, to name two other sports, are stupid too?

 

The reasons for many of the changes made were to halt the slide in people coming through the turnstiles as it was felt something new was needed. Others were made due to the demands of Sky. The truth is, value for money has been eroded over time and we get 15 races for our £15+ now, rather than 20 plus. Perhaps if promoters actually promoted as they did many years ago and provided an evenings entertainment that represented decent value, rather than 30% less races and a watered down product at the top level, falsely called an Elite League, more people might turn up. A bit of advertising, promotion and trying to attract new fans, rather than preaching to the long converted might help a bit too.

 

I'd say the principal reason we have double points rather than tactical substitutes is the cost, nothing to do with Sky at all. Most riders do tactical rides for no more pay, but introduce them instead of another rider and they will want adequate reward. Based upon a simple calculation, returning to tactical substitutes would cost tens(possibly hundreds) of thousands of pounds every season that the sport simply doesn't have. As SCB has pointed out many times, tactical rides are also less destructive and affect scores less than tactical substitutes and I must admit I wonder how anyone who is an advocate of tactical substitutes can actually justify them over tactical rides at this time.

 

The rules don't make any sense to outsiders because the sport is so different to those they are used to. Football fans might be critical of double points, but away goals counting double is fine. What's the difference ? Why not have a rule in speedway where certain riders are only allowed on certain parts of the track at certain times, and then it is dependant on where opposition riders are. Stupid ? Football has it, its called offside. My point in reality is that you simply cannot judge one sport's rules against another's and say they make no sense, they have to be judged within the context of the sport itself and very valid reasons can be made for double points, points limits, guests etc.

 

There's every argument against people who criticise speedway's rules and they are not right, they just think they are.

 

I have seen many, many posts on here from people who blast the BSPA for their lack of foresight and offer up all the solutions in the world to turn things around. Never seen one of them put their money where their mouth is yet.

 

I'd say the play offs have been hugely successful, and its sheer nonsense to suggest that they have downgraded the league itself. You have to get into the top four, so every match is as important as it used to be - indeed, it is very much the case that a lot more matches are important. When I went to the Workington-Ipswich play off match last season, the gate was up 25%. People criticise them because they personally don't like them, they brush aside any question of an objective opinion of what is actually good for the sport.

 

The change to the points system is another that has been very successful. Back in Collins day, 6 points up or down with one heat to go meant you either got 2 points or nothing. Now, you can gain or lose as much as two points on one race, meaning that the number of last heat deciders (and hence riders putting more in on the track) has rocketed.

 

Personally, I'd say one of the reasons why the sport is on its knees today is the failure to invest long term when things were good - ie when Collins was riding. Money was poured into riders and promoters pockets - Collins himself never came cheap, I can remember him disputing wages in 1982-3 when he didn't want to swallow a contract whereby he was to be paid the same as Morton and Ross despite the fact that his average was lower - instead of investing in the infrastructure of the sport.

 

As a final thought, I think you have to have one eye on the past, but you can't live in it.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Halifaxtiger

[Dave the Mic]

Sorry the rule we are talking is about double points ..I watched Football and sports all my life I can't remember a player coming on scoreing a try or a goal that counts double of what is normally scores so unless you can show me when that has happened the point you were trying to make is void .

Precisely, which is what I have been saying all along, that double points is ridiculous. You have been saying the "old TS" rule was a poor one, saying that there were daft rules in "PC's day"' - the rule you refer to is a modern day phenomena and had nothing to do with era in which PC raced or ran BV speedway, so what has it to do with him? So perhaps you should check your historic facts before you comment. You obviously don't watch that much football as away goals count double in all European cup competitions when the scores are tied after two legs.

[stratton]

Thanks for explaining why the double points tr was brought in, I thought it was common knowledge though but for those that missed it every time it was discussed previously it might have helped a bit.

Do you really not know the difference between the double points tr and away goals in European Cup football or are you just being obtuse? Even football aficionados don't like the away goals rule but it is the lesser of two evils isn't it? Nobody is trying to judge one sports rules against another are they? It is the principle of replacing one player with another in the hope of influencing the result, almost every team sport follows that same principle. Doubling a score just because they are loosing is one 'principle' you will struggle to find anywhere else.

Eh? A bit like you not being right but just thinking you are lol!

I have, there have been several forum members who have been promoters haven't there? Not to mention the hundreds (thousands?) of us who have sponsored speedway in one form or another.

Aaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhh! The gate was 25% up because the regular league meeting had been devalued by the pokc, derrrr! When a rider announces in an interview that his team are 'just testing set ups' in a meeting between the top two teams, has that meeting not been 'downgraded'? When a fan posts that he is not bothered by the result of a meeting when if his team won it would go top of the league, is that meeting not downgraded?

Quite, PC did say the points system was debatable, thanks for debating it although you seem to relating your debate directly to what 'Collins' experienced, why is that relevant?

FFS! I 'dispute' my 'wages' every year, it's called a pay negotiation. How pathetic to relate a riders value only to his average. Okay, if might be reasonable when dealing with some riders but are you not aware of the concept of the draw a 'name' can have on the attendance, even one who is not quite at his peak? I wonder how much Ivan was paid when he rode that last season for Exeter, his pay wasn't based on his average was it? Ha ha. Good luck with your fantasy of getting riders to agree to less pay which will then be invested in the infrastructure of the sport. Have you ever willingly taken less pay to invest in the infrastructure of your bosses business, no didn't think so lol!

A user name can be misleading but did you go and watch Halifax in the 70s by any chance? It will explain the undercurrent of bile in your post if you did.

What makes you think your opinion is anymore worthy than Halifaxtiger?

[Sotonian]

Precisely, which is what I have been saying all along, that double points is ridiculous. You have been saying the "old TS" rule was a poor one, saying that there were daft rules in "PC's day"' - the rule you refer to is a modern day phenomena and had nothing to do with era in which PC raced or ran BV speedway, so what has it to do with him? So perhaps you should check your historic facts before you comment. You obviously don't watch that much football as away goals count double in all European cup competitions when the scores are tied after two legs.

The point he was making was that those goals do not count for double *at the moment they are scored*, which they would have to to make them equivalent to the double points ride.

[stratton]

Sorry, but this is a very silly post. Mauger won 6, Fundin 5, Briggo 4, Olsen 3, Gundo 3, Hans 3, Moore 2, Penhall 2, Craven 2, Young 2 etc Never mind the great riders who won a single title, PC, Lee, Janno to name three. All of whom were fully deserving of their titles. Even Szczakiel, (sorry Sidney) deserved his title. It wasn't a one off performance as many, including you, would like to believe and on the day, the man who was arguably the bests around at the time made a massive error, whilst Jerzy didn't. So who deserved it more?

Analyse the best riders in the world over the one off period and the list of riders that won titles. They won't be much different. Do you think the likes of Olsen, Mauger, Briggo thought the way you do?

As an example, I was at Munich in '89, which was the worst track in one off final history. There wasn't a single genuine overtake in 21 races. Who won? Nielsen. Why? Because he had a load of bites at the cherry over 10 rounds? No, because he needed to make five starts and did so. The only other rider that could arguably have had a chance at Munich was Gundersen and Hans wasted him. Lottery? No, Hans had to make five starts to win that day and he did that better than the other 15.

Or as another example, take PC's win in '76. Lottery? Don't make me laugh. Do you think the gate positions mattered in heats 3 and 7, when he went past five riders for fun, including Louis and Simmo, arguably two of the best around at the time. No. He was just the best and gate positions meant nothing. And before you say they were both one off meetings. It matters not as Nielsen in '89 and PC in '76 were the best and demonstrated that all season, as the vast majority of winners of finals did too.

I did enjoy the world finals and I enjoy the GP's too as it goes, both have flaws but I don't subscribe to the view that the current system is necessarily fairer. I don't see how it can be, when riders are handed a place in a championship rather than qualify. Incidentally, part of my enjoyment of the old system was the qualification system - I know it meant that some deserving riders fell by the wayside, including some of my favourites, which always disappointed me, but I still enjoyed it and the final, even though my favourite rider wasn't there. For me, that was part of the appeal. The GP is a closed shop as you say and also as you say, only a handful of riders in the GP, as in one off finals actually really have a chance of winning it.

You may have read my other post about Jerzy. He may not have had the stellar career of Mauger or PC even, but he was no mug and he made Ivan look silly that day, simply by not budging. As such, I sort of feel he deserved it that day as Ivan made a massive mistake and Jerzy didn't. That said, I fully accept your view and that of countless others who have lamented his victory.

Dave i can't disagree about Jerzy, i can remember Ivan saying that he knew Sczcakiel was a force and knew he had as much chance as Plech for that final.Ivan if he had used his head would of picked him off i have no doubt but as in life it is sometimes swings and roundabouts.Ivan in my opinion was lucky in 72 but your good point about the old qualifying system is so true.Riders knew the rules before they set out on they're path and real favourites of mine in all honesty had poor records in WFinals (ie) E.Boocock, P.Crump,S.Autrey, relative to there real ability so as you said all of the real greats won it at least once? Farndon and Duggan would of no doubt? and often wondered why Jack Parker did not ever win it.

What makes you think I think my opinion is worth more that HT's?

Ah! It's okay I can see why.

The other point is that the 'PC just want us to go back to the good old days' brigade have conveniently missed is he hasn't criticised the 15 heat formula, the nominated race, the 15 meter handicap for tapes offences, the yellow flashing light for the two minutes warning, dirt deflectors, kevlars, cut outs, new silencers, the GP, the draft, the.........

Those idiots think that just because PC points out the bleedin obvious about the pokc and double points tr bollox he wants to 'go back to the good old days'.

To use their simpleton logic PC prefers NOT to 'go back to the good old days' because he has only criticised one or two aspects of modern speedway.

Burp!

You still have not answered the question, why is your opinion more worthy? They're are other members who have commented on this thread who are well respected in speedway and are still involved.They know more than most what is happening now and what has happened in the past but they listen to others opinions which is what debate is about isn't it.?

[orion]

Precisely, which is what I have been saying all along, that double points is ridiculous. You have been saying the "old TS" rule was a poor one, saying that there were daft rules in "PC's day"' - the rule you refer to is a modern day phenomena and had nothing to do with era in which PC raced or ran BV speedway, so what has it to do with him? So perhaps you should check your historic facts before you comment. You obviously don't watch that much football as away goals count double in all European cup competitions when the scores are tied after two legs.

Yet again just because a rule is daft now does not mean that the rules back then were not ...as I said before thou the new tac rule is ridiculous the old rule was just as stupid as you could bring a World Champion for your worst rider you also score more points overall and you also only had to be six behind so it changed the results far more than the new rule .. this is why people question Collins and the likes of you and say you are stuck in past because you can't accept that rules in the past were just as bad

 

By the way away goals counting double has nothing to with picking a rider to score double points ...as I said before show me the sport when a manager picks a player to do so .

Edited December 26, 2013 by orion

[george.m]

We're not worthy!

[stratton]

I didn't say my opinion is more worthy but I can understand why you THINK (rather than know) I think my opinion is more worthy but that's your problem isn't it?

A bit like the pillocks who THINK (rather than know) that because PC has criticised the pokc and tr he wants to 'go back to the good old days', that is their problem as well.

I don't pretend to know,all i know is they're are others who have commented on this thread who have years of experience who join in the debate and listen to others opinions whether they are right or wrong do you.?

[Dave the Mic]

.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Dave the Mic

[orion]

.

One of your better posts on the subject

[stratton]

Obviously!

Most of the time I even quote the other right or wrong opinions when I join in the debate.

Right was that when you used the word Pillocks and being worthy!!

[bellevueace]

Ah the good old days, remind me that was when we had packed terracing, all the worlds top riders in the British league, many more meetings, an abundance of world class English riders, dirt on tracks, great racing, team riding, and characters, not to mention far more press coverage in a sport not seen as a minority interest, yes why would we want to go back to that?

[george.m]

One of your better posts on the subject

PMSL!!

Edited December 26, 2013 by george.m

[Jonny the spud]

Ah the good old days, remind me that was when we had packed terracing, all the worlds top riders in the British league, many more meetings, an abundance of world class English riders, dirt on tracks, great racing, team riding, and characters, not to mention far more press coverage in a sport not seen as a minority interest, yes why would we want to go back to that?

We can't go back to that because the world has moved on.

 

People have more choices on how and what to do with their leisure time. Going back to the old days is not an option.

 

Just opening the doors and expecting punters to flood in is about as likely as George Formby releasing a no 1 album.

 

Yes learn from the past but for gods sake stop trying to re-create it, it ain't gonna happen. Don't forget that for every old boy who has years of experience and seen it and done it , there's also a handful of promoters who think the same. Just look at every other sport that has left speedway trailing in its wake, has it stayed the same as 30. 40,50 years ago ??

[E I Addio]

We can't go back to that because the world has moved on.

 

People have more choices on how and what to do with their leisure time. Going back to the old days is not an option.

 

Just opening the doors and expecting punters to flood in is about as likely as George Formby releasing a no 1 album.

 

Yes learn from the past but for gods sake stop trying to re-create it, it ain't gonna happen. Don't forget that for every old boy who has years of experience and seen it and done it , there's also a handful of promoters who think the same. Just look at every other sport that has left speedway trailing in its wake, has it stayed the same as 30. 40,50 years ago ??

 

 

Absolutely spot on.

[Agrotron]

PC is a legend