Objects Of Ridicule ?

[Halifaxtiger]

... maybe they don't like the often unjustified criticism (and abuse) from people who proudly proclaim they haven't been for years, but will only post when they see the opportunity to put the boot in. Sometimes I don't know whether .to laugh or cry, there are so many genuine problems with the sport that are worthy of intelligent discussion yet so many posts are on the lines of "Whoa yeah gor blimey mate I fink the promoters are a bunch of idiots........" then go off on some incorrect tangent about some rule they think exists but doesn't or that Golden era when only Englishmen won the world final. The T/R ,Tac sub is classic example. SCB and Bwitcher have explained in the clearest possible terms, that even I can understand why the Tac Sub rule was even more unfair than the T/r rule but still we get people banging on about tac subs, and of course we get thread after thread like this one where mythical friends or blokes in the office are collapsing with laughter because of guest riders or something. That fact is that there are maybe a dozen or so posters that are really on the ball with different aspects of the sport and come up with some really constructive criticisms or realistic suggestions which make for interesting debate, whether you agree with them or not but many more only seem intent on chipping away at our favourite port with nonsense like this thread.

As I said to the aforementioned co-promoter, its a matter of sorting out the wheat from the chaff. True, there are a lot of people who never attend (and will never attend again) who choose to be critical and there are others who simply use the forum as method of spouting off about their own hang ups and prejudices about the sport.

 

But its not all like that (anything but) and its not difficult to see who is making fair point and who genuinely cares. On this thread alone, we have some of our best posters (and there's far more than a dozen decent ones) making reasoned comment about (and, in my view, completely rebutting) the initial issue raised. This forum is worth reading for their comment alone, and they certainly do not deserve to be lumped in with the others.

 

Personally, I greatly value the occasional post we get (especially on the NL threads) from members of the speedway establishment (for want of a better description) and as I have indicated, when the co promoter did respond it attracted copnsiderable praise.

 

Surely it is better to read your fans feedback and engage with them than take them for granted and treat them with contempt and derision.

 

Sadly, in my experience there's an awful lot of the latter in speedway.

[BWitcher]

Not a rant it is just my OPINION, ( you have never quite grasped that word ) you on the other hand on this thread have shown your true colours totally out of order with your comments about Catseyes.A decent thread why would you react like that? border lining on nastiness would not be so bad but you are only a Part time supporter.

No Sidney, you haven't grasped the word.

 

IT IS NOT AN OPINION. 2 x 2 is 4. That is a fact. Not an opinion. Did you argue that at school, that in your opinion it was different?

 

The old rule was more unfair than the current one. That is STONE COLD FACT.

I understand different sports have rules which are hard to understand, I have never understood Cricket and probably never will. I don't really understand Rugby either. However, the rules of most sports have been 'hard coded' for many years and to me, haven't really changed. Speedway seems to be constantly tinkering with the rules to try and make the sport more exciting and less one sided at certain meetings. But it obviously isn't working as, sadly, fans are not flocking to the tracks to witness these new rules in action and in fact are creating the opposite. Many hard core fans just want a simple 3,2,1 system of scoring and with a team of riders who, barring injury, turn up at each meeting. Ideally local lads, who the fans and more importantly, the youngsters can relate to. Is that really such a terrible wish? It was what Speedway began with!

Once again, another incorrect post.

 

Rules across all sports are consistently changing.

What a nasty , poisonous little thread , even by BSF's standards .

Somebody can come on here and attempt to kick start a debate, among like minded individuals, about the more outlandish practices in our sport - and what does he or she get in responce ? The jackbooted playground bullies wading in to run he or she out of Dodge with jibes of " Liar , Liar " ringing in his or her ears .

Now i don't know the opening poster , or the speedway challenged acquaintances . But it was an interesting wee story to start a debate . Whether it was fiction or not , i don't really care . But surely the responce it got was completely unnecessary .

 

It may have been interesting the first time, the 2nd time.. but its about the 8th time the 'story' has popped up in the last year. Pretty much word for word the same. Its like one of those 'Facebook' stories that do the rounds time and again, with just a few words changed here and there.

[pugwash]

 

 

I bet you still believe in Father Christmas Ian

He is father Christmas.

[Ray Stadia]

No Sidney, you haven't grasped the word.

 

IT IS NOT AN OPINION. 2 x 2 is 4. That is a fact. Not an opinion. Did you argue that at school, that in your opinion it was different?

 

The old rule was more unfair than the current one. That is STONE COLD FACT.

Once again, another incorrect post.

 

Rules across all sports are consistently changing.

 

It may have been interesting the first time, the 2nd time.. but its about the 8th time the 'story' has popped up in the last year. Pretty much word for word the same. Its like one of those 'Facebook' stories that do the rounds time and again, with just a few words changed here and there.

I accept that and I said the word 'really' to indicate no major changes. Or radical changes that alters the possible result of the event. F1 has many radical changes, which are usually technical changes and has allowed the teams to be a bit closer in competitive terms, more so down the lower ranks. The point is and I would say the point of the OP is to create discussion on the sport as a whole, both good and bad. If you are happy with what is being 'served up' then fine. Many don't seem to be. There are many 'old chestnuts'. I think the overall frustration for many fans is it looks like Speedway will enter the 2014 season, actually, with very little change! But carrying some of the 'baggage' which is, perhaps, holding Speedway back.

[oldace]

 

 

Once again, another incorrect post.

 

Rules across all sports are consistently changing.

 

 

 

 

Like both Rugby codes changing the value of a try many times over the years

 

Or Tennis introducing a tie break in all except deciding sets

 

Or football with the no back pass rule and constant tinkering with offside

 

I doubt a sport exists today in exactly the same format as it did in years gone by, except in Rays world

I accept that and I said the word 'really' to indicate no major changes.

 

What you mean is you haven't got a clue about other sports and made a totally incorrect assumption. Most sports have had radical changes to rules over the years, its called evolving

Edited December 4, 2013 by Oldace

[BWitcher]

I accept that and I said the word 'really' to indicate no major changes. Or radical changes that alters the possible result of the event. F1 has many radical changes, which are usually technical changes and has allowed the teams to be a bit closer in competitive terms, more so down the lower ranks. The point is and I would say the point of the OP is to create discussion on the sport as a whole, both good and bad. If you are happy with what is being 'served up' then fine. Many don't seem to be. There are many 'old chestnuts'. I think the overall frustration for many fans is it looks like Speedway will enter the 2014 season, actually, with very little change! But carrying some of the 'baggage' which is, perhaps, holding Speedway back.

F1 has changed their entire scoring system a number of times.

 

They've change qualifying rules and regs many times also.

 

I see what you are saying though and as said earlier, personally I think there is too much doubling up/down going on but its going to take some time to fix it, the only way to do so is to increase the stream of British riders coming through. The problem is, are there enough British riders with the right attitude to do this, we're already seeing signs of complaints from them again. All along I've felt this is the difference between some (not all) young British riders and there foreign counterparts who have more get up and go get it about them.

Edited December 4, 2013 by BWitcher

[Humphrey Appleby]

I don't really understand Rugby either. However, the rules of most sports have been 'hard coded' for many years and to me, haven't really changed.

I'm not sure it's the case the rules haven't changed in other sports. Rugby union is forever tinkering with the number of points for a try, as well as scrum, ruck and maul rules even though hardly anyone understands them anyway. Rugby league has had massive changes with things like the four and then six tackle rule, zero tackles, 40/20 kicks, unlimited then limited interchanges, and if you go back far enough, the introduction of the play-the-ball rule actually created a new sport.

 

Even football with its relatively stable laws has probably more changes than people imagine - banning of back passes, abolition of the goalkeepers' steps rule, tinkering with the interpretation of offside, different numbers of substitutes, penalty shoot-outs, and 'away goals count double' - all to ostensibly make the sport more entertaining.

 

The basic rules of speedway probably haven't changed in decades. It's the team formation and match formats where most of the tinkering has gone on, but whilst some of the ideas are a bit farcical, you can find similar analogues in limited overs cricket - 60/55/50/45/40/20 overs, fielding circles, powerplays in various formats, supersubs, free hits, wides called down the leg side, white balls and coloured kit, and so on.. Some of these have been good innovations, others don't particularly add much as far as I'm concerned (e.g. free hits), whilst others (e.g. supersubs) were a complete joke.

 

So it's not by any means unique to speedway, although admittedly few sports have a double score rule when a team or player is behind...

Or Tennis introducing a tie break in all except deciding sets

In fact, I think most tournaments even have a tiebreak in the final set these days, and aren't super-tiebreakers increasingly used in the place of the final set in mixed doubles?

F1 has many radical changes, which are usually technical changes and has allowed the teams to be a bit closer in competitive terms, more so down the lower ranks.

They're not having the desired effect as Red Bull are miles ahead of everyone, and the likes of Marussia are barely in the same race. I think most technical changes are to rein in speeds and in principle reduce costs, although there's still vast differences in F1 team expenditure.

[Gemini]

 

The trouble is you HAVE to tell them about the TR otherwise they get the score wrong. That's the problem with the TR.

 

Only when it crops up though surely as a lot of matches are run without any being used at all? If I was trying to encourage someone to give speedway a try I wouldn't be telling them all the so called bad points. Get them there first and if a T.R. is used explain it then. Anyway, all irrelevant really because I think this story is just like one of those Facebook hoaxes that some people believe are true.

[stratton]

Like both Rugby codes changing the value of a try many times over the years

 

Or Tennis introducing a tie break in all except deciding sets

 

Or football with the no back pass rule and constant tinkering with offside

 

I doubt a sport exists today in exactly the same format as it did in years gone by, except in Rays world

 

 

What you mean is you haven't got a clue about other sports and made a totally incorrect assumption. Most sports have had radical changes to rules over the years, its called evolving

Your arrogance Oldace makes me laugh, how do you know Ray has a low knowledge about other sports? i don't see alot of past evidence showing that you are that knowledgeable you i think are in your own little world.

[orion]

Not a rant it is just my OPINION, ( you have never quite grasped that word ) you on the other hand on this thread have shown your true colours totally out of order with your comments about Catseyes.A decent thread why would you react like that? border lining on nastiness would not be so bad but you are only a Part time supporter.

Says the person who keeps getting ban ...the irony .two weeks before the normal you know nothing about the sport rants and how people are not knowledgeable etc etc ..same old Sid .

Edited December 5, 2013 by orion

[Ray Stadia]

Your arrogance Oldace makes me laugh, how do you know Ray has a low knowledge about other sports? i don't see alot of past evidence showing that you are that knowledgeable you i think are in your own little world.

Thanks Sidney. Oldace is right I haven't got much knowledge of sports like Rugby and Football, but I do think I am right in saying that when a Football team or Rugby team take to the field, the players are not a 'hotch potch' of players from other Football or Rugby Teams. I also think I am safe in saying that, in certain circumstances, a goal won't count as 2, a try won't count as 2 or a conversion won't count as 2.

[stratton]

Says the person who keeps getting ban ...the irony .two weeks before the normal you know nothing the sport rants and how people are not knowledgeable etc etc ..same old Sid .

You ain't certainly Orion, the Robins sign two youngsters in Worrall and Bates and you say before they have turned a wheel they are NO HOPERS.I have also only had one ban mainly because idiots like you get on my goat never a good word to say.

[waiheke1]

Rugby league nines is bringing in a rule where a try under the post is worth five points not four. Football has tha away goal rule. Cricket has the duckworth lewis system where u can score more runs at a better run rate than the opposition and still lose. A six hit off a no ball brings a team 7 runs not 6. A wide where the batsmsn run a single is now worth two, but a bye only one.

It is fair to say that the guest system used in speedway is rare, if not unique, but I havent yet seen a viable alternative proposed.

Back to the orinal poster an nz cricketer may play cricket for a club, his province, an english county side and an ipl franchise all in the same season. He may play 20 over games, 50 over games and three four or five dsy games. Some matches the tesms where the ssme colour uniform. Some games the team scoring the most runs does not win. The lbw rule is conceptuslly easy but the finer nuances and exceptions not .

[E I Addio]

Says the person who keeps getting ban ...the irony .two weeks before the normal you know nothing the sport rants and how people are not knowledgeable etc etc ..same old Sid .

 

 

I

 

I creased up at that one. Poor old Sidney. Walks straight into them every time

[stratton]

I

 

I creased up at that one. Poor old Sidney. Walks straight into them every time

Not really Addio it would be great to have a debate with him but what's the point same old doom and gloom.As for you are you still on the side of promoting NL riders? i did see a reaction from you getting a bit hot under the collar!! so you can be wound up also made i chuckle ( ie Cook can do do no wrong).!

[SteveEvans]

I haven't read through all the pages but the answer to original question is simple.

 

Speedway Riders have the ability to race up to 7 days a week or over 100 meetings during the season if they so choose. None of the leagues or competitions run enough meetings to give this amount of work so hence they are able to multi task and ride different leagues or competitions. Its only lack of coordination between the organizers of the competitions that gives a problem.

 

If the EPL only ran 1 match per fortnight footballers could be potentially double up (all hypothetical and suppositional) but 1-2 matches per week is plenty!

[Ray Stadia]

Rugby league nines is bringing in a rule where a try under the post is worth five points not four. Football has tha away goal rule. Cricket has the duckworth lewis system where u can score more runs at a better run rate than the opposition and still lose. A six hit off a no ball brings a team 7 runs not 6. A wide where the batsmsn run a single is now worth two, but a bye only one.

It is fair to say that the guest system used in speedway is rare, if not unique, but I havent yet seen a viable alternative proposed.

Back to the orinal poster an nz cricketer may play cricket for a club, his province, an english county side and an ipl franchise all in the same season. He may play 20 over games, 50 over games and three four or five dsy games. Some matches the tesms where the ssme colour uniform. Some games the team scoring the most runs does not win. The lbw rule is conceptuslly easy but the finer nuances and exceptions not .

I wonder how the fans in the above sports feel about the rule changes? Do they also think...aggghhh! 'more tinkering'. At the end of the day, if you are happy with the way Speedway is run and the current way teams are constructed and points are earned, fine, I respect that. If Speedway was flourishing, new tracks were coming on stream and there was an abundance of British Speedway Rider talent, I would say 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. Do you think that is where we are?

[E I Addio]

Not really Addio it would be great to have a debate with him but what's the point same old doom and gloom.As for you are you still on the side of promoting NL riders? i did see a reaction from you ge a bit hot under the collar!! so you can be wound up also made i chuckle ( ie Cook can do do no wrong).!

Never was on the side of promoting NL riders as such, but given the state of British speedway, if that is the price we have to pay for 36 league meetings a season a instead of 28 then we have to get behind the idea and run with it. Its the only show in town. At least I'll be there every meeting to see how it works out in practice before passing judgment, unlike the moaning minnies who tell us its doomed to fail before a wheel is turned.

 

As for Jon Cook he has, unlike other promoters, at least bothered to go out and organise a fans forum for his club within a week after the AGM finishing to explain the new formats and answer anything else the fans wanted to ask.

[george.m]

Never was on the side of promoting NL riders as such, but given the state of British speedway, if that is the price we have to pay for 36 league meetings a season a instead of 28 then we have to get behind the idea and run with it. Its the only show in town. At least I'll be there every meeting to see how it works out in practice before passing judgment, unlike the moaning minnies who tell us its doomed to fail before a wheel is turned.

 

As for Jon Cook he has, unlike other promoters, at least bothered to go out and organise a fans forum for his club within a week after the AGM finishing to explain the new formats and answer anything else the fans wanted to ask.

Good on him, a few more promoters could do with replicating that.

[stratton]

Never was on the side of promoting NL riders as such, but given the state of British speedway, if that is the price we have to pay for 36 league meetings a season a instead of 28 then we have to get behind the idea and run with it. Its the only show in town. At least I'll be there every meeting to see how it works out in practice before passing judgment, unlike the moaning minnies who tell us its doomed to fail before a wheel is turned.

 

As for Jon Cook he has, unlike other promoters, at least bothered to go out and organise a fans forum for his club within a week after the AGM finishing to explain the new formats and answer anything else the fans wanted to ask.

Good points and i will never deny that you talk alot of sense.I am all for the Brits getting a chance i pray for this to work maybe it will maybe it won't.My main gripe is that the public never got a say in the matter no real research on what the fans wanted.Saying that as the PL are not not on the same wavelength as the EL which for me is a disgrace the sport should be united together.But the PL have they're own agenda (which they have earned) and as it stands they're product is pretty good myself i would love the leagues to work together.