Mike.Butler Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I think this is fine as a fan for this season, but i'm glad i haven't got to sort it all out this time next year! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pedaler Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Q: What happens if a reserve is injured during the meeting? Q: what happens if a top 5 rider is injured during a meeting? Q: How will R/R work? Or will it simply be guests all round? Q: what happens to averages, which will clearly be affected by the new format? Interesting to see that the home number 6 only races against away 2 plus 6 & 7, while home 7 only meets away 4 plus 6 & 7. Away reserves both meet home 2 and 4 once each. 1, 3 & 5 all meet each other twice, which is well balanced. All your answers and more besides ought to be contained within the SCB regulations for speedway, which can be downloaded from here http://www.scbgb.co.uk/download_regulations.asp ..one day.... (useless organisation and communication seems to be endemic even at the SCB) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 The new rules will be released this afternoon. Hopefully the whining anoraks will be much happier They will still moan. So the new format is announced. Now where are those 'massive implications' and 'major disasters' for the future of speedway that some were going on about?! It just isn't possible to come up with a workable format many debated day after day on ere. Surely the BSPA must have listened to all there (nonsense) suggestions! Can SteveBrum and The White Knight please have a thread of their own? It's clear that "never the twain shall meet", yet they still batter away at each other like two tortoises fighting over a their territory. Come on guys, give us all a break! That was days ago. Why bring it up now? Some have moved on, maybe so should you. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Im waiting for the 'When will teams announce their riding orders so we can assess the impact of the new race format' thread! Should be good for a few more pages of frustrated angst! (Big tongue in cheek smiley) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superguest Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 How will the averages be worked out given the new race format ? No problems with the format but it does look like we have moved the goalposts re : average calculation given that Heat Leaders ( 1/3/5 ) do not ride against reserves any more ... Anybody out there in the know? Cheers In theory all riders will gain an average from the same league so it's not a problem. Other riders joining the league will have higher averages and therefore no one gets an advantage. A 3rd heat leader will have a lower average so will find it easier to get a position the following year conpared to their inflated 2nd stringers, but will earn a lot less. Weaker 3rd heat leaders will be a massive Achilles heal this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tellboy Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I quite like the new format,but I too have my concerns for the averages of riders for the following season. Do the reserves get an average or do they simply stay at reserve the following season.If they gain an average for the following season this could go against the good reserves getting a team place for next season. If for instance L.Kerr has a decent season he rides against 2 reserves twice and a 2nd string and reserve twice in a meeting he could average 6 quite easy.Would he get a place the following season on a 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Does that translate as fiddled GRW123? :shock: NO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrycuda Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 It does look fairly balanced in that all 3 heat leaders meet each other twice- but I think it might have worked better switching the away team reserve in heats 4 and 14. Heat 4: 4&6 v 2&7 (make this 2&6) Heat 14: 4&7 v 4&6 (make this 4&7) This way all reserves would meet 3x during the meeting (instead of home #6 meeting away #6 twice but away #7 four times). Still intrigued to know how the averages will be worked out and therefore scaled beyond 2014.. EDIT: or maybe a better alternative, change heat 4 to 4&7 v 2&7 and 14 to 4&6 v 2&6. This way the reserves also meet both second strings too. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 1. 2 1 2 1 2 0 0 2. 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 3. 2 1 2 1 2 0 0 4. 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 5. 2 0 2 2 2 0 0 6. 0 1 0 1 0 3 3 7. 0 1 0 1 0 3 3 Total agree with you would just like to have seen a little more balance regarding reserves and second string riders as you suggested. Could be a short over sight on the part of the person/persons who brought together this format, other wise it looks fine with limited heats for various rider combinations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remembertheracers Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) That's not a word I would use, but it has to be looked into. A good second string is virtually assured of 7/8pts a meeting whereas heat leaders have a far greater challenge. Come 2 months down the line, when the new scores come into play, some teams will be swapping the riding order, putting top riders down to 2nd strings and therefore racing against the draft riders... Because it was always seen as a mismatch, this was the main reason for introducing this new format in the first place. There as to be a calculation involved to compensate for the difficulties, the riding positions will transmit. Imagine a 3rd heat leader racing against top riders every race and getting only 3 or 4, he's not going to be too happy. I can imagine a lot of grumblings Agree. At Swindon I can see Gustafsson having a great year. Klindt, depends on whether he has got his bottle back. The Kid may lose his HL spot but will win it back. The choices in the NL draft will be very influential and even decisive. Not sure it helps KL who were my tip to get their first ever EL title Expect 1-5 changes at Belle Vue(Palm -Toft, should have been Birks),and Poole. The new formula hits Brummies and Leicester who dont look clever anyway, It helps Wolves. Also no cover for Heat 9 if a NL draft rider gets hurt. And do we still have fixed gate positions or do we go back to the best rider taking what he wants - at Reading Schwartz and Andersson were selfish on this. Edited March 1, 2014 by remembertheracers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) Q: What happens if a reserve is injured during the meeting? Q: what happens if a top 5 rider is injured during a meeting? Q: How will R/R work? Or will it simply be guests all round? Q: what happens to averages, which will clearly be affected by the new format? Interesting to see that the home number 6 only races against away 2 plus 6 & 7, while home 7 only meets away 4 plus 6 & 7. Away reserves both meet home 2 and 4 once each. 1, 3 & 5 all meet each other twice, which is well balanced. How will the averages be worked out given the new race format ? No problems with the format but it does look like we have moved the goalposts re : average calculation given that Heat Leaders ( 1/3/5 ) do not ride against reserves any more ... Anybody out there in the know? I quite like the new format,but I too have my concerns for the averages of riders for the following season. Do the reserves get an average or do they simply stay at reserve the following season. If they gain an average for the following season this could go against the good reserves getting a team place for next season. If for instance L.Kerr has a decent season he rides against 2 reserves twice and a 2nd string and reserve twice in a meeting he could average 6 quite easy.Would he get a place the following season on a 6. Averages will only be gained by the riders listed 1-5 and the draft reserves will stay at reserve all season regardless of what they score. In theory a strong reserve like Jason Garrity could easily get two race wins each meeting and 3 paid 5 in his other two rides but despite averaging around 9 meeting he will still be a reserve. Yes the reserves are a little unbalanced with the #6 meeting the opposing #7 in all four programmed rides but the big question that team managers will have to work out is where do they put their top rider ? An injured reserve can only be replaced by the other reserve or tactical sub but in the event of heat 9 then there will be a missing rider The #5 position is gong to be tough as they only ride alongside another heat leader. Wolves have (by averages) the top #1 rider in Tai Woffinden and the weakest third heat leader in Ty Proctor. Do they put Tai at #5 to have the harder rides and hopefully more heat advantages or do they put Ty Proctor at #5 so Tai gets two rides alongside a second at #1 or #3 Personally I would line them up as 1 Piotr Pawlicki ... 2 Jacob Thorssell ... 3 Tai Woffinden ... 4 Ricky Wells ... 5 Ty Proctor ...... This means Tai is out in three heats where a tactical can be used for either side Would have liked the tactical rule changed to 10 behind on both occasions so a 4-4 heat score still allows a tactical ride in the next heat but overall its pretty much the format I posted about months ago ....... but not my preffered choice !! Edited March 1, 2014 by T.N.T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickie Head Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Does the new formula still keep each rider having one start from each gate position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Thank you TNT for answering some of the questions that been raised. But you say nothing about the riders average scores. This new format has divided the riders into groups. The Heat leaders group being far more difficult than that of the second strings. Once the season gets underway, the riders scores will differ alarmingly, and some second strings will easily outscore some of the heat leaders. The CMA has always been an indication of ability, and teams are built around this score. Now surely for this to continue, than the bias has to be addressed to makes these scores compatible to each other. Failing that, the CMA will serve no further purpose. When it was announced, back in November, that a new format would be introduced to protect the draft riders, the present CMA was always a big stumbling block. Now, 3 months down the line, It appears, nothing has been done about it. All we have is a new program of heats and riders, and as someone had previously said, that could have been sorted out in a few hours.......... Why did it take so long......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 SCB ratification according to a BSPA tweet. I am sure there will be some kind of negative weighting applied to second string averages and / or a positive weighting to those of heat leaders to even it all out. There are certainly going to be some rum looking score charts this year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) ... All we have is a new program of heats and riders, and as someone had previously said, that could have been sorted out in a few hours.......... Why did it take so long......... To keep you in suspenders GRW123? AND to prompt 47 pages of postings on this forum! Edited March 1, 2014 by Bryn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pedaler Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) Averages will only be gained by the riders listed 1-5 and the draft reserves will stay at reserve all season regardless of what they score. In theory a strong reserve like Jason Garrity could easily get two race wins each meeting and 3 paid 5 in his other two rides but despite averaging around 9 meeting he will still be a reserve. In Poland Patrik Dudek races his first year this year as a senior, having been in a protected junior slot in his team in the way described above. The Poles are using his match average to give him his worth in the team, gained from his rides as a reserve. The question is, what happens when Jason Garrity, etc etc progress beyond the National League? What if he becomes an out and out PL Heat Leader, and is ripe for a PL/EL doubling up spot? Will he have his PL average used to assess his EL value, or will his non-reserve races at EL level or all of his EL races be used to calculate his worth? EDIT: Come to that, what happens to a NL rider who is an EL reserve, when he wants a team place in a PL team? Will his assessed PL average be based on his NL or EL exploits? Edited March 1, 2014 by The Pedaler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 In Poland Patrik Dudek races his first year this year as a senior, having been in a protected junior slot in his team in the way described above. The Poles are using his match average to give him his worth in the team, gained from his rides as a reserve. The question is, what happens when Jason Garrity, etc etc progress beyond the National League? What if he becomes an out and out PL Heat Leader, and is ripe for a PL/EL doubling up spot? Will he have his PL average used to assess his EL value, or will his non-reserve races at EL level or all of his EL races be used to calculate his worth? EDIT: Come to that, what happens to a NL rider who is an EL reserve, when he wants a team place in a PL team? Will his assessed PL average be based on his NL or EL exploits? The simple solution imo is any EL/PL reserve has his final EL reserve average added to his final PL average then convert that for an official EL average next year if they want a top 5 position. Effectively they're only racing PL rider's. Any EL/NL (no PL) rider's should automatically be a 3.00 if they want a top five space Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krompa Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Any chance to get confirmed gating positions for this new formula? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) Any chance to get confirmed gating positions for this new formula? Much needed - the existing cannot be transposed. Could be very difficult (if not impossible) to ensure each rider gets one gate off 1,2,3 & 4. Edited March 1, 2014 by TonyE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigbo Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 In Poland Patrik Dudek races his first year this year as a senior, having been in a protected junior slot in his team in the way described above. Thpe Poles are using his match average to give him his worth in the team, gained from his rides as a reserve. The question is, what happens when Jason Garrity, etc etc progress beyond the National League? What if he becomes an out and out PL Heat Leader, and is ripe for a PL/EL doubling up spot? Will he have his PL average used to assess his EL value, or will his non-reserve races at EL level or all of his EL races be used to calculate his worth? EDIT: Come to that, what happens to a NL rider who is an EL reserve, when he wants a team place in a PL team? Will his assessed PL average be based on his NL or EL exploits? Garritty is already way beyond the NL and hasn't ridden in it for a couple of years. He was top of Rye House's averages when he got injured ladt season. The disparity in the reserves is ridiculous. Some of them haven't got NL averages as high a others have PL averages!! God knows what rhe plan is to rebalance the top 5 averages either. 3rd heatleaders averaging 4 when 2nd strings get 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I think with the expanded fixture list that the averages will sort thenselves out. The top riders will always just that and will be only marginally affected IMO. The lower heat leaders if they do struggle will swap with the better performing second strings and then each will have the opposite rides and matters will even out. The reserves of course dont attain averages and are unaffected. There could be a situation where a second string may look to come in behind their reseve partner to help keep themselves at second string level. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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