DizzAssStar Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 r/r will operate the same as before, with the addition that it will also operate immeadiately on the night if someone is injured and unable to continue Another "can of worms" just waiting to be opened ................ but then again I can't see Poole taking advantage of this (when it suits) .............. not like them to bend the rules is it ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 No , I don't suppose all speedway supporters are that dumb and there is absolutely nothing in my post to suggest I do. That is just a piece of hyperbole you have thrown in to shore up your position instead of dealing with the substance of my post. There are possibly 800-1000 regular users of this forum and the vast majority have not expressed an opinion on this thread so how on earth could I , or anyone else express the opinion that they are dumb ? That is just a stupid comment for you to make. Your example of either 1 or 2 in your original post, insinuated the supporters was dumb and that by delaying any announcement would give people less time to moan. You next say my reasons for the delay are mind blowing, which is a very odd thing to say as I haven't given any reasons. I am merely advancing the proposition that whenever the new heat format is revealed won't make any difference . If it is rubbish it will still be rubbish when the season starts and if it is good it will still be good when the season starts. The date of the announcement won't change that. Why should it be rubbish? You seem only too prepared to accept it whether it be rubbish or not. If it's rubbish the sport will lose support it can ill afford. At the moment you do not know whether the format will be good or bad but your posts seem to assume the worst. That is your prerogative but keep in mind you only speak for yourself, just as all posters do. if you don't like not being told about the new format fair enough , but to talk about "the educated fans could see all the problems" and "WE all hoped" is presumptuous in the extreme firstly because there are plenty of apparently intelligent fans that have posted opinions different from your own and secondly the vast majority have not voiced an opinion at all so your use of the Royal "we" is nonsense because you have no idea what they think. I am aware of the issues that a protected race format generates. The whole equality of team racing, relies totally on the CMA and how that score were attained. Once that format changes it renders massive recriminations on the whole points system, Not only now but also in the future. Of course there will be problems and teething troubles with the draft rider scheme and of course I , and I daresay most others would prefer full top line riders at reserve rather than NL standard riders but the reality is that when clubs are making eye-watering losses ( Peterborough £100,000, Eastbourne £70,000 etc) then drastic steps have to be taken and you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs so of course there will be problems. It will not be a perfect arrangement. We all know that, we have to live with it if we want to continue supporting the sport in 2014. As I said before we won't really know how it is panning out until maybe several weeks into the season and that seems to be the time for judgment. Nobody is more aware than I of the problems that bestows our sport. Anyway to make it more viable has to be considered. Winning to me is important, but not at the cost of the sport. The sport has to change and It is because of these foreseen teething problems that a new scheme should be announced sooner rather than later, enabling a time period to finalise details. I'm sorry we disagree in the timetable of things, but I have always thought that supporters and promotions want the same success story. We are not the enemy, we only want what best for the sport. It appears that some are willing to bury their heads in the sand, hoping when they open the eyes, everything will be OK. Unfortunately I'm not one of those people. As one of the American presidents (I think it was Roosevedt) said " I have spent most of my life worrying about things , most of which never happened" , so perhaps we should have a bit of patience. Yeah .... Whatever???? You are doing it again. Why do you assume those with a different point of view to your own are burying their heads in the sand ? There seem to be other intelligent and knowledgeable fans who don't share your opinions. This is a debating forum not a "yes I agree with everything GRW 123 says forum " . If your choice in life is to take the view that your opinion is the only valid one and anyone who disagrees is burying their heads in the sand then with respect a debating forum is not the best place to b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz01 Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Its only us die hards who are interested in the race format. The better half who attends with me sometimes doesn't even know this situation is going on and I'd doubt she would even notice a change in race format. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Another "can of worms" just waiting to be opened ................ but then again I can't see Poole taking advantage of this (when it suits) .............. not like them to bend the rules is it ? Spot on . Expect riders not to able to carry on in vital stages of the match and the better riders taking there place ...yet another rule that will allowed cheating . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Spot on . Expect riders not to able to carry on in vital stages of the match and the better riders taking there place ...yet another rule that will allowed cheating .I thonk this is actually a good rule change it just needs the rules around usevto be well thought out.Trach doctor has to sign off rider as unfit to continue. First replacement ride must be taken by a reserve. No rides may be taken by a rider with a higher average (or a ride may be taken by the rider immediately above the injured rider in the averages, but only after all those below, including both reserves, have taken a rrplacement ride). I think that would be sufficient to prevent manipulation, at yhe same time reducing the massive disadvantage which would otherwise occur due to the loss esrly in the meeting of a top five rider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 You are doing it again. Why do you assume those with a different point of view to your own are burying their heads in the sand ? There seem to be other intelligent and knowledgeable fans who don't share your opinions. This is a debating forum not a "yes I agree with everything GRW 123 says forum " . If your choice in life is to take the view that your opinion is the only valid one and anyone who disagrees is burying their heads in the sand then with respect a debating forum is not the best place to b. I don't assume anything. It is you that suggest things I did not say. My words were: It appears that SOME are willing to bury their heads in the sand, hoping when they open the eyes, everything will be OK. that is the impression I get from what you said about waiting for the format to be announced. I wish you would read the post the way it was intended, and not put in things that were nor there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 I thonk this is actually a good rule change it just needs the rules around usevto be well thought out. Trach doctor has to sign off rider as unfit to continue. First replacement ride must be taken by a reserve. No rides may be taken by a rider with a higher average (or a ride may be taken by the rider immediately above the injured rider in the averages, but only after all those below, including both reserves, have taken a rrplacement ride). I think that would be sufficient to prevent manipulation, at yhe same time reducing the massive disadvantage which would otherwise occur due to the loss esrly in the meeting of a top five rider. Not going to be hard to be signed off by the track doctor unlikely to have a x ray machine etc just have to say my leg or arm hurts and off you go ...Also under your rules if the 5th rider is hurt the out of depth reserve can only take there place ? that will be great for the crowd and the team who's rider get's injured . As someone has already said another can of worms has just been opened . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 I partly agree with ei on this. Im not concerned qbout delay in race format per se, no real rush for it to be available significantly in advance of season (the only benefitvwould have been if it was available prior to team building starting). However, the concerns raised about issues the new format, nl reserves etc. will cause on averages etc. are genuine. And given past performance, its not unreasonable to be concerned that the bspa may not have thouggt all the implications tgrough. The ironic thing of course is that the release of the news format is unlikely to answer any of the questions around rules on re declarations and team building limits/average conversion s for 2015, which are actually I believe the msin concerns of those clamouring for its release Not going to be hard to be signed off by the track doctor unlikely to have a x ray machine etc just have to say my leg or arm hurts and off you go ...Also under your rules if the 5th rider is hurt the out of depth reserve can only take there place ? that will be great for the crowd and the team who's rider get's injured . As someone has already said another can of worms has just been opened . 5th rider is covered in my alternative suggestion that the rider immediately above could take a replacement ride after both reserves had taken a ride each. Or u could rwesk the rule so tgat first replacement ride was taken by a reserve, next ride could be taken by fourth in sverages, then back to reserve for nextvheat).Yes it might be tough on the team with the injured rider. But no tougher than curent rules where an injured number one could only be replaced by reserves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Lets consider two possible scenarios :- There's actually a third possible scenario. Anyone with a reasonable understanding of heat formats will know it's actually quite difficult to do what they're proposing with 7 rider teams. There are all sorts of factors to take into account such as riders not having two programmed rides on the trot, not having to ride too many times with just a heat between programmed rides, and avoiding excessive repetition amongst other things. It's entirely possible the BSPA came up with the idea without thinking through how the heat format would actually work, and now they find they can't come up with a formula that's acceptable. That's even before they consider how R/R will work with the graded system. Edited February 11, 2014 by Humphrey Appleby 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.V 72 Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 I cant wait to see what the new race format is but that is my thing.But none of the people that i stand with at Belle vue come on this or any other forum or show any interest in the politics of speedway.All they want to know is who is in the team,have we got a team that will stand a chance this year,as they are fed up with finishing in the bottom 2.All they are interested in is a good night of speedway and hopefully a win they then go home happy and forget about speedway until the next meeting.So apart from us few on this and other forums i think most fans just like there team to win and take it for what it is 4 guys racing motor bikes for our entertainment. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Ha ha, not at all!! For example, Poole's inclusion of Kyle Newman has generated extra sponsorship and all those new sponsors are surely going to attend Wimborne Road on a regular basis. It's very admiral that Kyle works hard to gain and support sponsors. Do all these extra attendees actually pay to attend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 There's actually a third possible scenario. Anyone with a reasonable understanding of heat formats will know it's actually quite difficult to do what they're proposing with 7 rider teams. There are all sorts of factors to take into account such as riders not having two programmed rides on the trot, not having to ride too many times with just a heat between programmed rides, and avoiding excessive repetition amongst other things. It's entirely possible the BSPA came up with the idea without thinking through how the heat format would actually work, and now they find they can't come up with a formula that's acceptable. That's even before they consider how R/R will work with the graded system. Again that is something which we shall have to wait and see, but we still have the starting point that NL riders have been drafted in at reserve as a costs saving measure and they are not going to change that just because the formula is difficult to plan. Riders in individual meetings always have back-to-back rides. I have seen riders who take an r/r ride go out 3 times in the last four heats, so although its not ideal, if it has to be that way then that's the way it will be because the over-riding objective is to keep NL reserves in the team. I always find curious that people in speedway think it so arduous to have two or three rides 60 second rides with only a short break in between when top moto-cross riders will ride a 30 or 40 minute first leg on a for more arduous course than a speedway track then race a second leg. I know speedway is a sprint and requires a different type of preparation mentally but in the context of a race format I hardly think this would be a major issue. What seems to be more difficult is a No1 going out in heat 1 then having a long break until heat 7. However, the fact remains that we cannot make any sort of judgment until we know what the formula is and all this "what if " is pure speculation at this stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorum Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 It's entirely possible the BSPA came up with the idea without thinking through how the heat format would actually work, and now they find they can't come up with a formula that's acceptable. That's even before they consider how R/R will work with the graded system. No sh#t Sherlock Who would have thought they would do that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 It's very admiral that Kyle works hard to gain and support sponsors. Do all these extra attendees actually pay to attend? I can't guarantee 'all', but I certainly know several that do/will. Also, depending on the amount they sponsor - and whether its via the club or not - then one can argue they pay to attend anyway!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 I can't guarantee 'all', but I certainly know several that do/will. Also, depending on the amount they sponsor - and whether its via the club or not - then one can argue they pay to attend anyway!!! Guess if they save the club spending but help improve the riders performance they contribute indirectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 If it's riding order peopl wan to know, then it's most likely that teams will line up in order of average so Kings Lynn for example will be #1 Iversen, #2 Bjerre, #3 Schlein, #4 Porsing amnd #5 Lambert. I thought we knew that top 3 riders would be in 1, 3 & 5?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Its only us die hards who are interested in the race format. The better half who attends with me sometimes doesn't even know this situation is going on and I'd doubt she would even notice a change in race format. She'll notice if the NL riders are consistently trailing in nearly a lap behind the heat-leaders because they've got the format wrong.... Edited February 11, 2014 by rmc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 She'll notice if the NL riders are consistently trailing in nearly a lap behind the heat-leaders because they've got the format wrong.... Have you not seen rule 96B which states the NL riders only do 3 laps. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Have you not seen rule 96B which states the NL riders only do 3 laps. Only when wearing a skull and crossbones ;-) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superguest Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Wouldnt all this be solved if second strings were forced to ride at no.5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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