Vincent Blachshadow Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 Since we've been assured reserves will not ride against heat leaders, I'm more interested in knowing how injured (during the meeting) heat leaders will be replaced and the changes to the R/R rule for covering 3rd, 4th and 5th averaged riders.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 In my case just trying to point out the scale of the problem and a possible way to deal with it in a structured way. Just trying to help people understand the implications of it all. I appreciate you explaining the problems that are being encountered, but to me they were always going to be issues implementing a protected race format. I understand the idea of not wanting Draft Riders racing against the top riders, but the alternative creates so many problems. By including two drafts riders into the reserve berth, the teams are now split into 2 sections that aren't allowed to ride against each other. Crazy Since we've been assured reserves will not ride against heat leaders, I'm more interested in knowing how injured (during the meeting) heat leaders will be replaced and the changes to the R/R rule for covering 3rd, 4th and 5th averaged riders.. Just a few of the issues that will need to be addressed. The biggest problems we have encountered in recent years is the R/R , Guests and Double uppers . It seems this year we will have a even worst problem. The example I have used is for a Kings Lynn vs Coventry meeting, line ups are in average order Hope you can understand the format, please feel free to give me your opinions on this I think this option was one of the best I seen. Ok the riders are in the wrong numbered position, but that is easy altered. It's so obvious APT has positioned his riders in CMA order, whereas they should've been in 1,3,5. But the idea of who rides with who is good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I posted this on a different thread, but perhaps it is most relavent here waihekeaces1, on 30 Jan 2014 - 2:20 PM, said: If the format is as expected (i.e. reservces entirely protected from heat leaders) then I would expect roughly the following for the “average” rider in each position, expecting a variance of +/- 2 points depending on individual. I’ve given an expected average for each position, and in brackets approximate “starting” average. Number 1: 6 out of 8 points against heat leaders, 4 out of 4 against second strings, two points from heat 15. Expected Average 9.6 (starting 8.30) Number 2: 4 out of 4 points against heat leaders, 3 out of 4 against second strings, one point from heat 15: Average 6.4 (starting 7.3) Number 3: 2 out of 4 points against heat leaders, 3 out of 4 against second strings: Average 5.0 (6.4) Second strings: 0.75 points out of 4 against heat leaders, 2 out of 4 against second strings, 3.5 out of 4 against reserves: Average 6.25 (4.75) Reserves: 0.5 out of 4 against second strings, 4 out of eight against reserves: Average 4.25 (2?) High level assumptions, but not too far off the mark I wouldn’t think? Essentially a three point swing in difficulty between being a third heat leader and second string (i.e. expect thrid heat leader to drop 1.5 from their old average, and second strings to gain the same). This will be most marked for riders coming in on an “assessed” average, as the impact will be immediate rather than gradual under rolling averages. As others have stated, come end of the season there will be an issue with averages not being "like for like". But if you start adjusting for second strings having easier heats, how do you deal with riders ho spent half the season as a second string and half as a heatleader. If you start adjusting for that, do you also need to adjust for riders racing in the tougher heat 15? How will reserves averages be converted for next year, and will the draft reserve system be in place again - and if so, would a rider like Garritty who may average 8 this year become inelgible, and if so what is the cut off for this? The more I look at this, the more I think KL, and to a lesser extent BV and Poole, have got the right set up for the team, with three genuine heat leaders, and two compettive but low averages second strings (orrall the exception). I also think its imperative that any rebuilding during the season be based on 2013 closing greensheets, otherwise it could become farcical. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redlead Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Now Sky have confirmed a 5 years deal, perhaps we will now find out what format we will be watching!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Now Sky have confirmed a 5 years deal, perhaps we will now find out what format we will be watching!! ...and how many fixture changes there will now be??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Postie Thompson Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Agreed, that's already been confirmed so race format is way off. Why don't people just wait until its released? Ok Steve alter the riding order so it fits with whats been agreed who will race where, but thats not really the point I was trying to make, its the 15 race format and who rides with who, keeping reserves away from 2nd strings etc that I was trying to highlight as, some others who I have shwn on different social media sites have agreed, that it's the best heat line ups they have seen so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Ok Steve alter the riding order so it fits with whats been agreed who will race where, but thats not really the point I was trying to make, its the 15 race format and who rides with who, keeping reserves away from 2nd strings etc that I was trying to highlight as, some others who I have shwn on different social media sites have agreed, that it's the best heat line ups they have seen so far. Fair play to anyone that wants theorize what the format may look like and how difficult it looks like it may be, think we all know that to be honest. It makes little difference what looks like the best format at this stage. The only one that counts will be the official one WHEN its confirmed! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 According to Graham Drury (November 2013?) your three heatleaders have to be at No's 1,3 and 5, although not neccesarily in average order, similarly your second strings can be at number 2 or 4. Agreed, that's already been confirmed so race format is way off. Why don't people just wait until its released? Swap riders 2 and 5 in the team line ups then. FFS its not hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Liked APT`s format however 3 reserve races might be one too many.Rather see 2 plus a ride against each 2nd string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Fair play to anyone that wants theorize what the format may look like and how difficult it looks like it may be, think we all know that to be honest. It makes little difference what looks like the best format at this stage. The only one that counts will be the official one WHEN its confirmed! Well, it's a damn sight more interesting than the "My dad's team's bigger than your dad team" bilge that people try to pass off as 'banter' here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Well, it's a damn sight more interesting than the "My dad's team's bigger than your dad team" bilge that people try to pass off as 'banter' here. Well yea that is true. However realistically its no different to most other threads - usually speculative and the odd one or two claiming to know more than others! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrycuda Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Could this be somewhere possibly near the race format keeping heat leaders and second string reserves apart. Seems to be a bit sterile if I am being honest. Kings Lynn N K Iversen R Lambert K Bjerre N Porsing R Schlein L Kerr L Rose Coventry H Andersen K Howarth C Harris R Fisher K Hansen J Garrity J Sarjeant Race Heat Format .1 3 v 1 5 N K Iversen K Bjerre v H Andersen K Hansen .6 7 v 6 7 L Kerr L Rose v J Garrity J Sarjeant .2 4 v 2 4 R Lambert N Porsing v K Howarth R Fisher .1 5 v 1 3 N K Iversen R Schlein v H Andersen C Harris .4 7 v 4 7 N Porsing L Rose v R Fisher J Sarjeant .1 3 v 3 5 N K Iversen K Bjerre v C Harris K Hansen .2 6 v 2 6 R Lambert L Kerr v K Howarth J Garrity .3 5 v 1 5 K Bjerre R Schlein v H Andersen K Hansen .2 4 v 2 4 R Lambert N Porsing v K Howarth R Fisher .6 7 v 6 7 L Kerr L Rose v J Garrity J Sarjeant .1 5 v 3 5 N K Iversen R Schlein v C Harris K Hansen .2 6 v 4 7 R Lambert L Kerr v R Fisher J Sarjeant .3 5 v 1 3 K Bjerre R Schlein v H Andersen C Harris .4 7 v 2 6 N Porsing L Rose v K Howarth J Garrity .N N v N N Please note Two heats with 2 4 v 2 4 Two heats protected 6 7 v 6 7 Heat leaders only against each other Second strings against each other and reserves Heat Leaders riding positions can still be inter changeable between 1 3 5 Second String riding positions can also be inter changeable between 2 4 Team managers still got control of picking riding positions Edited January 31, 2014 by Barrycuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think it is unlikely that they would keep the second strings from racing the heat leaders. The format you suggest would hugely skew 2nd string averages - riders like ljung or worrall could average more than tai or ward under that format. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrycuda Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) I think it is unlikely that they would keep the second strings from racing the heat leaders. The format you suggest would hugely skew 2nd string averages - riders like ljung or worrall could average more than tai or ward under that format. Total agree cannot see how the powers that be will get around this change in race heat format to be honest. Why as there to be two protected 6 7 v 6 7 heats. Found this 15 heat format which was used in the British League from 1988 to 1990. I have made one or two heat changes. Kings Lynn N K Iversen R Lambert K Bjerre N Porsing R Schlein L Kerr L Rose Coventry H Andersen K Howarth C Harris R Fisher K Hansen J Garrity J Sarjeant Heat Format .1 2 v 1 2 N K Iversen R Lambert v H Andersen K Howarth .6 7 v 6 7 L Kerr L Rose v J Garrity J Sarjeant .5 4 v 5 4 R Schlein N Porsing v K Hansen R Fisher .3 6 v 3 7 K Bjerre L Kerr v C Harris J Sarjeant .5 4 v 1 2 R Schlein N Porsing v H Andersen K Howarth .1 2 v 3 6 N K Iversen R Lambert v C Harris J Garrity .3 6 v 5 4 K Bjerre L Kerr v K Hansen R Fisher .2 7 v 2 7 R Lambert L Rose v K Howarth J Sarjeant .5 4 v 3 6 R Schlein N Porsing v C Harris J Garrity .3 7 v 1 2 K Bjerre L Rose v H Andersen K Howarth .1 2 v 5 4 N K Iversen R Lambert v K Hansen R Fisher .6 7 v 6 7 L Kerr L Rose v J Garrity J Sarjeant .1 4 v 3 5 N K Iversen N Porsing v C Harris K Hansen .3 5 v 1 4 K Bjerre R Schlein v H Andersen R Fisher .*N *N v *N *N Please note Two heats protected 6 7 v 6 7 Edited January 31, 2014 by Barrycuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Total agree cannot see how the powers that be will get around this change in race heat format to be honest. Why as there to be two protected 6 7 v 6 7 heats. Found this 15 heat format which was used in the British League from 1988 to 1990. I have made one or two heat changes. Kings Lynn N K Iversen R Lambert K Bjerre N Porsing R Schlein L Carr L Rose Coventry H Andersen K Howarth C Harris R Fisher K Hansen J Garrity J Sarjeant Heat Format .1 2 v 1 2 N K Iversen R Lambert v H Andersen K Howarth .6 7 v 6 7 L Carr L Rose v J Garrity J Sarjeant .5 4 v 5 4 R Schlein N Porsing v K Hansen R Fisher .3 6 v 3 7 K Bjerre L Carr v C Harris J Sarjeant .5 4 v 1 2 R Schlein N Porsing v H Andersen K Howarth .1 2 v 3 6 N K Iversen R Lambert v C Harris J Garrity .3 6 v 5 4 K Bjerre L Carr v K Hansen R Fisher .2 7 v 2 7 R Lambert L Rose v K Howarth J Sarjeant .5 4 v 3 6 R Schlein N Porsing v C Harris J Garrity .3 7 v 1 2 K Bjerre L Rose v H Andersen K Howarth .1 2 v 5 4 N K Iversen R Lambert v K Hansen R Fisher .6 7 v 6 7 L Carr L Rose v J Garrity J Sarjeant .1 4 v 3 5 N K Iversen N Porsing v C Harris K Hansen .3 5 v 1 4 K Bjerre R Schlein v H Andersen R Fisher .*N *N v *N *N Please note Two heats protected 6 7 v 6 7 Sorry but that wouldn`t work -for this year at least you cannot have the 6/7 riding in races with heat leaders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy robin Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 No Lewis Kerr in the Kings Lynn line up or is that a mistake?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think the format posted(!) by Andrew PT is pretty much what we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Liked APT`s format however 3 reserve races might be one too many.Rather see 2 plus a ride against each 2nd string. 3 Reserve races? Why are some just ignoring what we already know! It has already been confirmed there will be an extra reserves race, not 2 more. FFS!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointsmeanplayoffs Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 The example I have used is for a Kings Lynn vs Coventry meeting, line ups are in average order Hope you can understand the format, please feel free to give me your opinions on this 1. Niels K Iversen. 1. Hans Andersen. 2. Kenneth Bjerre. 2. Chris Harris. 3. Rory Schlien. 3. Kenneth Hansen. 4. Nicklas Posing. 4. Ryan Fisher. 5. Robert Lambert. 5. Kyle Howarth. 6. Lewis Kerr 6. Jason Garrity 7. Lewis Rose 7. James Sarjeant Heat 1 NKI Bjerre Andersen Harris Heat 2 Schlien Porsing Hansen Fisher Heat 3 Kerr Rose Garrity Sarjeant Heat 4 Lambert NKI Howarth Andersen Heat 5 Bjerre Schlien Harris Hansen Heat 6 Porsing Lambert Fisher Howarth Heat 7 Kerr Rose Garrity Sarjaent Heat 8 NKI Schlien Andersen Hansen Heat 9 Bjerre Porsing Harris Fisher Heat 10 Lambert Kerr Howarth Garrity Heat 11 NKI Porsing Andersen Fisher Heat 12 Lambert Rose Howarth Sarjaent Heat 13 Bjerre Schlien Harris Hansen Heat 14 Kerr Rose Garrity Sarjaent Heat 15 Nominated Race That would mean each rider would ride against their opposition no. in every single race? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingbee Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 3 Reserve races? Why are some just ignoring what we already know!It has already been confirmed there will be an extra reserves race, not 2 more.FFS!!Steve there's a lot of fans on here that just don't get a lot of things I was going to say something else but it wouldn't be polite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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