The White Knight Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 If it's so simple why is it taking +3 months to release the confirmed riding order? It's much more than that; what happens when injuries occur, guests or r/r for fixture clashes, calculating fair averages, loss of earnings or when we run out of NL riders? Comparing Ward v Dryml is very different to Ward v Halsey and co. You appear to have a very blinkered view. Speedway should be simple but when the powers that be make a major change without carrying out a complete risk analysis, it inevitably leads to even more confusing and conflicting rules. That's where Speedway is and has been for years. Speedway DOES seem to shoot itself in the foot rather a lot. :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 But not all the teams can have top end strength, i.e. some have to build in depth because they haven't got access to a genuine #1. Overall, whatever the race format, it wouldn't have made that much difference to team building. If you have a strong top 3 you're going to want them out in the last 3 or 4 races so that you end a meeting strongly. You start badly, throw in your TRs and end well winning the meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 If you have a strong top 3 you're going to want them out in the last 3 or 4 races so that you end a meeting strongly. You start badly, throw in your TRs and end well winning the meeting. ................ are you winding me up SCB? :rofl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 If it's so simple why is it taking +3 months to release the confirmed riding order? It's much more than that; what happens when injuries occur, guests or r/r for fixture clashes, calculating fair averages, loss of earnings or when we run out of NL riders? Comparing Ward v Dryml is very different to Ward v Halsey and co. You appear to have a very blinkered view. Speedway should be simple but when the powers that be make a major change without carrying out a complete risk analysis, it inevitably leads to even more confusing and conflicting rules. That's where Speedway is and has been for years. I think you are mixing up two separate things there. The thread is about the new race format and how teams can be built without knowing the race format. The matter of averages, guests etc, is outside the scope of the thread so lets put that on one side for a moment and come back it in a minute. The thing that people have been getting their knickers in a twist about, especially over the last few pages is the fact that the heat format has not been published and we have seen comments like "treating the fans with contempt" etc, but is it really that big a deal ? Lets consider two possible scenarios :- 1. Lets assume that the heat formula when published is absolute rubbish, the worst formula anyone could possibly devise. If that's the case its still going to be absolute rubbish when the season starts because they are not going to suddenly change it because some people on here don't like it. If they don't release it until the first meeting of the season all it means is that some people will have 3 months less to moan about it, but it will still be the same formula. 2. Lets now assume the heat formula is the most brilliant formula anyone could possibly devise. There will still be a few chronic complainers on here that find fault with it and , once again , if it is not released until the first meeting it simply means that some people have 3 months less to moan about it. Realistically the new formula will probably fall between scenario 1 and scenario 2, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, in other words we won't really know how well it works until a couple of months into the season, but even then a good meeting will also depend on a multitude of other factors like track prep, delays and weather etc, so I really don't see what there is to get worked up about at this stage. Things like the imbalance between the quality of the reserves is a far more serious matter IMO. Turning now to your comments about r/r , calculation of averages etc , I take your point but in any walk of life new systems and new arrangements are very often subject to fine tuning but if we separate all that from the heat formula is it really something to get worked up about ? I am not sure the averages need much adjustment anyway as even on the old formula the second strings had two rides against reserves and its not beyond the realms of possibility that some of the more talented reserves on their home track will occasionally take points off a visiting second string. I honestly cant 'see why people are getting in a frazzle over it all. It will all be on us soon enough and we will see than whether it works or not. It would be of casual interest to know what the formula is but its hardly life and death as some are trying to have us believe. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) I think you are mixing up two separate things there. The thread is about the new race format and how teams can be built without knowing the race format. The matter of averages, guests etc, is outside the scope of the thread so lets put that on one side for a moment and come back it in a minute. The thing that people have been getting their knickers in a twist about, especially over the last few pages is the fact that the heat format has not been published and we have seen comments like "treating the fans with contempt" etc, but is it really that big a deal ? Lets consider two possible scenarios :- 1. Lets assume that the heat formula when published is absolute rubbish, the worst formula anyone could possibly devise. If that's the case its still going to be absolute rubbish when the season starts because they are not going to suddenly change it because some people on here don't like it. If they don't release it until the first meeting of the season all it means is that some people will have 3 months less to moan about it, but it will still be the same formula. 2. Lets now assume the heat formula is the most brilliant formula anyone could possibly devise. There will still be a few chronic complainers on here that find fault with it and , once again , if it is not released until the first meeting it simply means that some people have 3 months less to moan about it. Realistically the new formula will probably fall between scenario 1 and scenario 2, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, in other words we won't really know how well it works until a couple of months into the season, but even then a good meeting will also depend on a multitude of other factors like track prep, delays and weather etc, so I really don't see what there is to get worked up about at this stage. Things like the imbalance between the quality of the reserves is a far more serious matter IMO. Turning now to your comments about r/r , calculation of averages etc , I take your point but in any walk of life new systems and new arrangements are very often subject to fine tuning but if we separate all that from the heat formula is it really something to get worked up about ? I am not sure the averages need much adjustment anyway as even on the old formula the second strings had two rides against reserves and its not beyond the realms of possibility that some of the more talented reserves on their home track will occasionally take points off a visiting second string. I honestly cant 'see why people are getting in a frazzle over it all. It will all be on us soon enough and we will see than whether it works or not. It would be of casual interest to know what the formula is but its hardly life and death as some are trying to have us believe. Regardless of the name of the thread, the issue of the format and the other concerns have to be looked at as one. The whole unrest has been created by the introduction of the draft riders and protected heats. And that is not something, which can be sorted separately. One problem creates the other. When it was announced in November last, that teams would use Draft riders with protected heats, the educated fans could see all the problems this would create, but we all hoped the time would be well spent sorting out all the issues. It is so obvious you think us posters are concerned only of the riding order, but I for one, don’t give a damn what the order is. I’m more concerned of the excitement, the atmosphere, the fairness, the equality, and the integrity. That is what I want the announcement to promote. Your reasons for the delay are mind blowing. You must assume that all speedway supporters are that dumb, and all they are good for is to moan. To think we would accept everything throw at us is for three months is unbelievable. No wonder the sport is in decent if they are treated as you suggest. I can assure you, if I didn’t like what was put in front of me, I wouldn’t MOAN, I would just say GOODBYE and clear off. And that is what most people have done and will do. You probably don’t think you’re treated with contempt, but to me, it’s enough to convert me into an armchair supporter watching only SGP’s. Edited February 10, 2014 by GRW123 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Regardless of the name of the thread, the issue of the format and the other concerns have to be looked at as one. The whole unrest has been created by the introduction of the draft riders and protected heats. And that is not something, which can be sorted separately. One problem creates the other. When it was announced in November last, that teams would use Draft riders with protected heats, the educated fans could see all the problems this would create, but we all hoped the time would be well spent sorting out all the issues. It is so obvious you think us posters are concerned only of the riding order, but I for one, don’t give a damn what the order is. I’m more concerned of the excitement, the atmosphere, the fairness, the equality, and the integrity. That is what I want the announcement to promote. Your reasons for the delay are mind blowing. You must assume that all speedway supporters are that dumb, and all they are good for is to moan. To think we would accept everything throw at us is for three months is unbelievable. No wonder the sport is in decent if they are treated as you suggest. I can assure you, if I didn’t like what was put in front of me, I wouldn’t MOAN, I would just say GOODBYE and clear off. And that is what most people have done and will do. You probably don’t think you’re treated with contempt, but to me, it’s enough to convert me into an armchair supporter watching only SGP’s. Are we talking about SPEEDWAY!!!! :shock: Just wondered in view of that Statement. :shock: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I think you are mixing up two separate things there. The thread is about the new race format and how teams can be built without knowing the race format. The matter of averages, guests etc, is outside the scope of the thread so lets put that on one side for a moment and come back it in a minute. The thing that people have been getting their knickers in a twist about, especially over the last few pages is the fact that the heat format has not been published and we have seen comments like "treating the fans with contempt" etc, but is it really that big a deal ? Lets consider two possible scenarios :- 1. Lets assume that the heat formula when published is absolute rubbish, the worst formula anyone could possibly devise. If that's the case its still going to be absolute rubbish when the season starts because they are not going to suddenly change it because some people on here don't like it. If they don't release it until the first meeting of the season all it means is that some people will have 3 months less to moan about it, but it will still be the same formula. 2. Lets now assume the heat formula is the most brilliant formula anyone could possibly devise. There will still be a few chronic complainers on here that find fault with it and , once again , if it is not released until the first meeting it simply means that some people have 3 months less to moan about it. Realistically the new formula will probably fall between scenario 1 and scenario 2, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, in other words we won't really know how well it works until a couple of months into the season, but even then a good meeting will also depend on a multitude of other factors like track prep, delays and weather etc, so I really don't see what there is to get worked up about at this stage. Things like the imbalance between the quality of the reserves is a far more serious matter IMO. Turning now to your comments about r/r , calculation of averages etc , I take your point but in any walk of life new systems and new arrangements are very often subject to fine tuning but if we separate all that from the heat formula is it really something to get worked up about ? I am not sure the averages need much adjustment anyway as even on the old formula the second strings had two rides against reserves and its not beyond the realms of possibility that some of the more talented reserves on their home track will occasionally take points off a visiting second string. I honestly cant 'see why people are getting in a frazzle over it all. It will all be on us soon enough and we will see than whether it works or not. It would be of casual interest to know what the formula is but its hardly life and death as some are trying to have us believe. The heat format is the catalyst for all other issues raised. They are very much connected. If I were considering a season ticket I would want to know the structure prior to purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Regardless of the name of the thread, the issue of the format and the other concerns have to be looked at as one. The whole unrest has been created by the introduction of the draft riders and protected heats. And that is not something, which can be sorted separately. One problem creates the other. When it was announced in November last, that teams would use Draft riders with protected heats, the educated fans could see all the problems this would create, but we all hoped the time would be well spent sorting out all the issues. It is so obvious you think us posters are concerned only of the riding order, but I for one, don’t give a damn what the order is. I’m more concerned of the excitement, the atmosphere, the fairness, the equality, and the integrity. That is what I want the announcement to promote. Your reasons for the delay are mind blowing. You must assume that all speedway supporters are that dumb, and all they are good for is to moan. To think we would accept everything throw at us is for three months is unbelievable. No wonder the sport is in decent if they are treated as you suggest. I can assure you, if I didn’t like what was put in front of me, I wouldn’t MOAN, I would just say GOODBYE and clear off. And that is what most people have done and will do. You probably don’t think you’re treated with contempt, but to me, it’s enough to convert me into an armchair supporter watching only SGP’s. No , I don't suppose all speedway supporters are that dumb and there is absolutely nothing in my post to suggest I do. That is just a piece of hyperbole you have thrown in to shore up your position instead of dealing with the substance of my post. There are possibly 800-1000 regular users of this forum and the vast majority have not expressed an opinion on this thread so how on earth could I , or anyone else express the opinion that they are dumb ? That is just a stupid comment for you to make. You next say my reasons for the delay are mind blowing, which is a very odd thing to say as I haven't given any reasons. I am merely advancing the proposition that whenever the new heat format is revealed won't make any difference . If it is rubbish it will still be rubbish when the season starts and if it is good it will still be good when the season starts. The date of the announcement won't change that. At the moment you do not know whether the format will be good or bad but your posts seem to assume the worst. That is your prerogative but keep in mind you only speak for yourself, just as all posters do. if you don't like not being told about the new format fair enough , but to talk about "the educated fans could see all the problems" and "WE all hoped" is presumptuous in the extreme firstly because there are plenty of apparently intelligent fans that have posted opinions different from your own and secondly the vast majority have not voiced an opinion at all so your use of the Royal "we" is nonsense because you have no idea what they think. Of course there will be problems and teething troubles with the draft rider scheme and of course I , and I daresay most others would prefer full top line riders at reserve rather than NL standard riders but the reality is that when clubs are making eye-watering losses ( Peterborough £100,000, Eastbourne £70,000 etc) then drastic steps have to be taken and you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs so of course there will be problems. It will not be a perfect arrangement. We all know that, we have to live with it if we want to continue supporting the sport in 2014. As I said before we won't really know how it is panning out until maybe several weeks into the season and that seems to be the time for judgment. As one of the American presidents (I think it was Roosevedt) said " I have spent most of my life worrying about things , most of which never happened" , so perhaps we should have a bit of patience. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Exactly ElAddio - couldn't have put it better myself!! Incidentally I and 2 others have bought our season passes, knowing that we'll continue to see 15 heats of speedway with maybe a couple of processional races!! No different to past seasons and no different to many SGP heats for that matter, despite the so-called quality of the GP riders! As for the effect on averages for 2015, there will be changes, but so what?? There will doubtless be a formula to use or a grading system to sort the 'men from the boys' but why get all stressed about it now?! It won't make the slightest difference to any new supporters who won't know of anything to compare their first speedway to! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 No , I don't suppose all speedway supporters are that dumb and there is absolutely nothing in my post to suggest I do. That is just a piece of hyperbole you have thrown in to shore up your position instead of dealing with the substance of my post. There are possibly 800-1000 regular users of this forum and the vast majority have not expressed an opinion on this thread so how on earth could I , or anyone else express the opinion that they are dumb ? That is just a stupid comment for you to make. Your example of either 1 or 2 in your original post, insinuated the supporters was dumb and that by delaying any announcement would give people less time to moan. You next say my reasons for the delay are mind blowing, which is a very odd thing to say as I haven't given any reasons. I am merely advancing the proposition that whenever the new heat format is revealed won't make any difference . If it is rubbish it will still be rubbish when the season starts and if it is good it will still be good when the season starts. The date of the announcement won't change that. Why should it be rubbish? You seem only too prepared to accept it whether it be rubbish or not. If it's rubbish the sport will lose support it can ill afford. At the moment you do not know whether the format will be good or bad but your posts seem to assume the worst. That is your prerogative but keep in mind you only speak for yourself, just as all posters do. if you don't like not being told about the new format fair enough , but to talk about "the educated fans could see all the problems" and "WE all hoped" is presumptuous in the extreme firstly because there are plenty of apparently intelligent fans that have posted opinions different from your own and secondly the vast majority have not voiced an opinion at all so your use of the Royal "we" is nonsense because you have no idea what they think. I am aware of the issues that a protected race format generates. The whole equality of team racing, relies totally on the CMA and how that score were attained. Once that format changes it renders massive recriminations on the whole points system, Not only now but also in the future. Of course there will be problems and teething troubles with the draft rider scheme and of course I , and I daresay most others would prefer full top line riders at reserve rather than NL standard riders but the reality is that when clubs are making eye-watering losses ( Peterborough £100,000, Eastbourne £70,000 etc) then drastic steps have to be taken and you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs so of course there will be problems. It will not be a perfect arrangement. We all know that, we have to live with it if we want to continue supporting the sport in 2014. As I said before we won't really know how it is panning out until maybe several weeks into the season and that seems to be the time for judgment. Nobody is more aware than I of the problems that bestows our sport. Anyway to make it more viable has to be considered. Winning to me is important, but not at the cost of the sport. The sport has to change and It is because of these foreseen teething problems that a new scheme should be announced sooner rather than later, enabling a time period to finalise details. I'm sorry we disagree in the timetable of things, but I have always thought that supporters and promotions want the same success story. We are not the enemy, we only want what best for the sport. It appears that some are willing to bury their heads in the sand, hoping when they open the eyes, everything will be OK. Unfortunately I'm not one of those people. As one of the American presidents (I think it was Roosevedt) said " I have spent most of my life worrying about things , most of which never happened" , so perhaps we should have a bit of patience. Yeah .... Whatever???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Exactly ElAddio - couldn't have put it better myself!! Incidentally I and 2 others have bought our season passes, knowing that we'll continue to see 15 heats of speedway DO we know there'll be 15 heats? Foe example, scrapping the nominated heat would save clubs tens of thousands of pounds in a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 No , I don't suppose all speedway supporters are that dumb and there is absolutely nothing in my post to suggest I do. That is just a piece of hyperbole you have thrown in to shore up your position instead of dealing with the substance of my post. There are possibly 800-1000 regular users of this forum and the vast majority have not expressed an opinion on this thread so how on earth could I , or anyone else express the opinion that they are dumb ? That is just a stupid comment for you to make. You next say my reasons for the delay are mind blowing, which is a very odd thing to say as I haven't given any reasons. I am merely advancing the proposition that whenever the new heat format is revealed won't make any difference . If it is rubbish it will still be rubbish when the season starts and if it is good it will still be good when the season starts. The date of the announcement won't change that. At the moment you do not know whether the format will be good or bad but your posts seem to assume the worst. That is your prerogative but keep in mind you only speak for yourself, just as all posters do. if you don't like not being told about the new format fair enough , but to talk about "the educated fans could see all the problems" and "WE all hoped" is presumptuous in the extreme firstly because there are plenty of apparently intelligent fans that have posted opinions different from your own and secondly the vast majority have not voiced an opinion at all so your use of the Royal "we" is nonsense because you have no idea what they think. Of course there will be problems and teething troubles with the draft rider scheme and of course I , and I daresay most others would prefer full top line riders at reserve rather than NL standard riders but the reality is that when clubs are making eye-watering losses ( Peterborough £100,000, Eastbourne £70,000 etc) then drastic steps have to be taken and you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs so of course there will be problems. It will not be a perfect arrangement. We all know that, we have to live with it if we want to continue supporting the sport in 2014. As I said before we won't really know how it is panning out until maybe several weeks into the season and that seems to be the time for judgment. As one of the American presidents (I think it was Roosevedt) said " I have spent most of my life worrying about things , most of which never happened" , so perhaps we should have a bit of patience. Exactly ElAddio - couldn't have put it better myself!! Incidentally I and 2 others have bought our season passes, knowing that we'll continue to see 15 heats of speedway with maybe a couple of processional races!! No different to past seasons and no different to many SGP heats for that matter, despite the so-called quality of the GP riders! As for the effect on averages for 2015, there will be changes, but so what?? There will doubtless be a formula to use or a grading system to sort the 'men from the boys' but why get all stressed about it now?! It won't make the slightest difference to any new supporters who won't know of anything to compare their first speedway to! Much respect for your positive outlooks and dedication. I recommend you never underestimate your audience, in may be a reason why we are where we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 If it's riding order peopl wan to know, then it's most likely that teams will line up in order of average so Kings Lynn for example will be #1 Iversen, #2 Bjerre, #3 Schlein, #4 Porsing amnd #5 Lambert. The reserves could go in either position or in ranking order but as they are in so called "protected" races it won't really affect much. My main concern is having the reserves in two protected heats against each other. Firstly it means a good reserve will be almost important as a heat leader and secondly it means the top five are squashed into the remaining heats and likely to clash more than before. However the one thing is having a second reserves race later in the meeting is risky as any injury to a reserve will make this race a two or three rider race as no replacements can come in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 If it's riding order peopl wan to know, then it's most likely that teams will line up in order of average so Kings Lynn for example will be #1 Iversen, #2 Bjerre, #3 Schlein, #4 Porsing amnd #5 Lambert. The reserves could go in either position or in ranking order but as they are in so called "protected" races it won't really affect much. My main concern is having the reserves in two protected heats against each other. Firstly it means a good reserve will be almost important as a heat leader and secondly it means the top five are squashed into the remaining heats and likely to clash more than before. However the one thing is having a second reserves race later in the meeting is risky as any injury to a reserve will make this race a two or three rider race as no replacements can come in. There are so many questions that need to be answered, and I'm sorry if my persistence, annoys some people. The riding order is just one of those questions, replacements to long term injured riders is another, R/R is another one, along with averages. Will heat leaders swap places with 2nd strings when their averages drop?, Who replaces certain riders when the meeting has started?, Will reserves always be kept away from top men? The list is endless. It's not about just one thing. when you bring in these protected races, it alter the whole concept of the sport. Time is moving on. before long it will be March and the season will be about to start, and, as of yet, we know nothing. Stressed, no way, concerned, you bet..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 There are so many questions that need to be answered, and I'm sorry if my persistence, annoys some people. The riding order is just one of those questions, replacements to long term injured riders is another, R/R is another one, along with averages. Will heat leaders swap places with 2nd strings when their averages drop?, Who replaces certain riders when the meeting has started?, Will reserves always be kept away from top men? The list is endless. It's not about just one thing. when you bring in these protected races, it alter the whole concept of the sport. Time is moving on. before long it will be March and the season will be about to start, and, as of yet, we know nothing. Stressed, no way, concerned, you bet..... Agreed, it amazes me how some don't see it and think it doesn't matter until you get to your first meeting. How can you sell something but can't state what you are selling. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) DO we know there'll be 15 heats? Foe example, scrapping the nominated heat would save clubs tens of thousands of pounds in a season. There will be 15 heats!! Any less will lose the sport more fans at this season's prices!! The inclusion of 'locally-based' NL/PL riders could actually increase attendance, no matter what the format!! Edited February 11, 2014 by Skidder1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 The inclusion of 'locally-based' NL/PL riders could actually increase attendance, no matter what the format!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 The inclusion of 'locally-based' NL/PL riders could actually increase attendance, no matter what the format!! Brainwashed as a result of being much too close to the " Dorset Speedway Mafia" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Brainwashed as a result of being much too close to the " Dorset Speedway Mafia" Ha ha, not at all!! For example, Poole's inclusion of Kyle Newman has generated extra sponsorship and all those new sponsors are surely going to attend Wimborne Road on a regular basis. Kyle is also particularly good at promoting himself locally, attending all the fan activities/socials over the winter - except when he was in Oz testing out equipment etc - and generating new fans, who aren't in the least bit interested in what the racing format is, as long as they see him and the rest of the team race. As I've said before - all 15 heats sponsored every week; most meetings sponsored already and not a dicky bird of concern from any of them about the format!! Heat leaders will ride at 1,3 and 5; 2nd strings at 2 & 4 - not that different to previously. r/r will operate the same as before, with the addition that it will also operate immeadiately on the night if someone is injured and unable to continue. (all this has been announced/leaked previously). Enjoy your speedway! (assuming you are attending of course?!) Edited February 11, 2014 by Skidder1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) I agree with skidders point, I can see more people being interested in Lynn's side with three local youngsters in it. Trouble is very few teams will have local youngsters at 6&7. Edited February 11, 2014 by Bagpuss 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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