Barrycuda Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 So the Wolverhampton v Birmingham EL match on the 24th March 2014 we will have first hand experience of the new race heat format or not has the case might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 So the Wolverhampton v Birmingham EL match on the 24th March 2014 we will have first hand experience of the new race heat format or not has the case might be. Only if they have sorted it out by then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 I actually agree with parts of this Post. The highlighted parts. At least I can admit when you have a point steve. All that matters in the EL v PL debate is.. 1: The Elite League IS the Elite League, it is the highest level of competition in the UK. An Elite League team would beat a Premier League team with ease, even now. It is named correctly. 2: The Premier League is NOT the Premier League so is named incorrectly. 3: The costs for running an EL meeting have always been far higher than the Premier League, yet the admission prices are only £1 or £2 more. Premier League fans, you're getting ripped off Quality of racing, that's another argument. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 I actually agree with parts of this Post. The highlighted parts. At least I can admit when you have a point steve. Not that it is important to me, but seemingly so for you, i have `liked` some of your posts in the past and recent times. Anyway, this is just going round in circles. You are a fan of all things PL and you cant understand why some EL supporters support a `weakened` league. If you have a little bit of respect for EL posters who are proud of the talent we get to watch on a weekly basis you might not get such a negative response in future - just a thought! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john birch Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 What I wan't to know is this. If a No.4 or 5 in the averages meets the British reserves more times than the heat leaders then their average will shoot up. What then is to stop them being replaced by the likes of Larsen or Sundstrom? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 What I wan't to know is this. If a No.4 or 5 in the averages meets the British reserves more times than the heat leaders then their average will shoot up. What then is to stop them being replaced by the likes of Larsen or Sundstrom?A point that has already been raised multiple times on the thread. One way to stop this would be to use the official 2013 greensheets for any team redeclarations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrycuda Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I have seen the statement saying there will be two reserve races, but where does this reserves only riding against second strings come from? Agree with the comments that a second reserve race should be earlier that heat 14. That was tried before with the 8 man teams era and it was not successful. I think it needs to be before heat 8 . Can anyone shed any light on the above underlined statement by naffer. I to have looked at the BSPA AGM statement and cannot find anywhere it suggests reserves will only ride against second strings. So who started this rumour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Not that it is important to me, but seemingly so for you, i have `liked` some of your posts in the past and recent times. Anyway, this is just going round in circles. You are a fan of all things PL and you cant understand why some EL supporters support a `weakened` league. If you have a little bit of respect for EL posters who are proud of the talent we get to watch on a weekly basis you might not get such a negative response in future - just a thought! I have 'Liked' a number of your Posts too steve - including this one. My reason - because I respect ALL Speedway Supporters of whatever Club or League and if I have given the impression that I don't - then I apologise. It is the word 'Elite' that gets to me - I previously admitted that the word 'Premier' was unfortunate too. Why oh why can we not get back to British League Division One (Elite) and British League Division Two (Premier) - I would be more than happy with that. We should get rid of those two misnomers immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I have 'Liked' a number of your Posts too steve - including this one. My reason - because I respect ALL Speedway Supporters of whatever Club or League and if I have given the impression that I don't - then I apologise. It is the word 'Elite' that gets to me - I previously admitted that the word 'Premier' was unfortunate too. Why oh why can we not get back to British League Division One (Elite) and British League Division Two (Premier) - I would be more than happy with that. We should get rid of those two misnomers immediately. Why does it get to you? It is accurate. It is the highest level of speedway in British Speedway, therefore it is the 'Elite'. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Why does it get to you? It is accurate. It is the highest level of speedway in British Speedway, therefore it is the 'Elite'. Comer on BW - you don't really believe that - you seem to be an intelligent person. It MAY be the best League British Speedway has - but - ELITE never. :nono: What is so wrong with 'British League One and Two? At least that would be an HONEST description of them. Edited February 3, 2014 by The White Knight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 If both 'Elite' and 'Premier' are in use, then it is 'Premier' which is the biggest misnomer! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 If both 'Elite' and 'Premier' are in use, then it is 'Premier' which is the biggest misnomer! You may well be right but that doesn't alter the argument one jot. As I have already said BOTH Leagues are using names that come nowhere near fitting the bill or fulfilling their claims. :mad: If you don't believe me watch the next 'Elite' Meeting on SKY. Oh! and the 'Premier' League Meetings featured on SKY have, in the main, been far more entertaining to watch than anything the 'Elite League' has put on. THAT though is only an opinion - it is, however, definitely mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Why oh why can we not get back to British League Division One (Elite) and British League Division Two (Premier) - I would be more than happy with that. Then we'd have you complaining about a so-called "British " league that consisted of mostly foreign riders. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Then we'd have you complaining about a so-called "British " league that consisted of mostly foreign riders. _Point taken. :rofl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Comer on BW - you don't really believe that - you seem to be an intelligent person. It MAY be the best League British Speedway has - but - ELITE never. :nono: What is so wrong with 'British League One and Two? At least that would be an HONEST description of them. Not may, it is the highest level of standard. Therefore it IS the Elite. If you can name me a stronger league in the UK, you have a point. If you can't, it remains the Elite. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Not may, it is the highest level of standard. Therefore it IS the Elite. If you can name me a stronger league in the UK, you have a point. If you can't, it remains the Elite. OK BW - I don't agree with you - but hey - that is nothing new. I respect your view though ergo we must agree to differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I have 'Liked' a number of your Posts too steve - including this one. My reason - because I respect ALL Speedway Supporters of whatever Club or League and if I have given the impression that I don't - then I apologise. It is the word 'Elite' that gets to me - I previously admitted that the word 'Premier' was unfortunate too. Why oh why can we not get back to British League Division One (Elite) and British League Division Two (Premier) - I would be more than happy with that. We should get rid of those two misnomers immediately. Both leagues are inappropriately named, however it isn't only our sports that uses names other than `divisions`. Personally speaking i don't have any issues with either name - i just take issue with people berating the name of one league and defending the actions of another inappropriately named league! You may well be right but that doesn't alter the argument one jot. As I have already said BOTH Leagues are using names that come nowhere near fitting the bill or fulfilling their claims. :mad: If you don't believe me watch the next 'Elite' Meeting on SKY. Oh! and the 'Premier' League Meetings featured on SKY have, in the main, been far more entertaining to watch than anything the 'Elite League' has put on. THAT though is only an opinion - it is, however, definitely mine. When SKY hand pick tracks for PL meetings there is a good chance the racing will be good, however i would stake any money on if they covered the whole league and showed all tracks there would be more one sided racing than in the EL. But this is slowly turning into `my league is better than yours` again and on an EL thread you are preaching to the converted and not listening so best quit while your well behind. :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 The names of our leagues are the least of our worries . . . . WHY does the subject come up time and time again argh!!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) I think this is possibly the optimum format, if reserves are to be totally segregated from heat leaders. Every rider meets each opposition rider (excepting HL vs Res) at least once, and no rider has consecutive rides, nor does any rider meet the same opposition rider in each heat. Downside is it pretty much gets rid of the concept of riding in “pairs” . I tried to get the second string vs reserve heats out of the way early in the meeting, to reduce the chance of these being used as easy “double point” heats, assuming that that ruke remain in effect. Perhaps it could be restricted to after heat 7, but usable in any heat after that (including heat 15?). Home Away ht1 2 6 4 7 ht2 4 7 2 6 ht3 1 5 3 4 ht4 3 4 1 5 ht5 2 7 2 7 ht6 1 3 1 3 ht7 4 6 4 6 ht8 2 5 3 5 ht9 6 7 6 7 ht10 3 5 2 5 ht11 6 7 6 7 ht12 1 5 1 5 ht13 3 4 3 4 ht14 1 2 1 2 Under this format, I’d expect your average number 1 to average around 8.8, other heat leaders and second strings around 6 points, reserves around 4.25. Obviously with a variance of around +/2 points in each position. Now given that the average heat leader (exc number ones) starts on around 6.9 and the average second string an average of 4.75, that indicates a difference of difficulty of over 2 points between the rides a second string has and those a heatleader has. Some teams this will “even out” as riders will shuffle between HL and 2nd string slots, but at KL it’s quite possible there will be no such movement, so Lambert and Porsing could end with quite inflated averages. Edited: I can't seem to copy and paste the format into nice columns from the excel file, and have deleted the example with rider names as cannot seem to get that to show in tidy columns either. Edited February 4, 2014 by waihekeaces1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrycuda Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Have changed two rider pairings from 2 7 v 2 7 and 4 6 v 4 6 to 2 6 v 2 6 and 4 7 v 4 7 waihekeaces1 and adapted the following race heat format to this design. Hope you approve. Fairly evenly spaced first 8 heats then it gets tricky and the problems being. Heat Leaders in Capitals Belle Vue M ZAGAR M Palm-Toft C COOK R Worrall S NICHOLLS S Nielsen B Reade Kings Lynn N K IVERSEN R Lambert K BJERRE N Porsing R SCHLEIN L Kerr L Rose Heat Format 1 2 v 1 2 M ZAGAR M Palm-Toft v N K IVERSEN R Lambert 6 7 v 6 7 S Nielsen B Reade v L Kerr L Rose 3 4 v 3 4 C COOK R Worrall v K BJERRE N Porsing 1 5 v 1 5 M ZAGAR S NICHOLLS v N K IVERSEN R SCHLEIN 2 6 v 2 6 M Palm-Toft S Nielsen v R Lambert L Kerr 4 7 v 4 7 R Worrall B Reade v N Porsing L Rose 1 3 v 1 3 M ZAGAR C COOK v N K IVERSEN K BJERRE 6 7 v 6 7 S Nielsen B Reade v L Kerr L Rose 3 5 v 2 5 C COOK S NICHOLLS v R Lambert R SCHLEIN 2 6 v 4 7 M Palm-Toft S Nielsen v N Porsing L Rose 3 4 v 1 5 C COOK R Worrall v N K IVERSEN R SCHLEIN 1 5 v 3 4 M ZAGAR S NICHOLLS v K BJERRE N Porsing 4 7 v 2 6 R Worrall B Reade v R Lambert L Kerr 2 5 v 3 5 M Palm-Toft S NICHOLLS v K BJERRE R SCHLEIN N N v N N This shows how many times they race against each other. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1: 3 1 2 1 1 0 0 2: 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 3: 2 1 2 1 2 1 0 4: 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 5: 1 1 2 1 3 0 0 6: 0 1 0 1 0 3 3 7: 0 1 0 1 0 3 3 Edited February 4, 2014 by Barrycuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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