When Will The New Race Format Be Out & How Can Teams Name Riders When They Don't Know It?

[naffer]

And rider averages are calculated by ........?

 

Matt ford

[weatherwatcher]

The way I saw it was that the reserves only race against each other. I think it will be a must that all teams practice what speedway is all about and that is team riding not one rider blasting off to the front and leaving his mate trailing at the rear.

The teams that will dominate are the ones who will ride as teams not 7 indivdual riders

[T.N.T.]

Ht1 ... 1 2 1 2

Ht2 ... 6 7 6 7

Ht3 ... 4 5 4 5

Ht4 ... 1 3 1 3

Ht5 ... 6 7 6 7

Ht6 ... 3 5 3 5

Ht7 ... 2 7 2 7

Ht8 ... 3 4 5 6

Ht9 ... 5 6 3 4

Ht10 ... 1 2 5 6

Ht11 ... 4 7 4 7

Ht12 ... 5 6 1 2

Ht13 ... 1 2 3 4

Ht14 ... 3 4 1 2

Ht15 ... N N N N

 

So the opposing #1 comes out in heat 1 and 4 (both times against the home #1) ..... then has to wait till heats 12, 14 and 15 ?

 

 

Can only see the teams lining up in order of averages so any ride that the reserves are in are against the other reserves or second strings.

 

This would mean a home reserve would mainly be against the away reserves three times each and once against the opposing teams 4 and 5. This would mean a powerful reserve could be good for 9 or 10 points while a teams #3 will have some seriously hard races as his easiest ride would be against a second string but most heats against a heat leader.

 

 

The more I look at it I really had wished they had gone with a 36 limit for 6 riders and ONE reserve from the NL as it may be the reserves will be the real match winners or losers in most matches.

[Barrycuda]

These are the possible rider heat pairing combinations keeping heat leaders and reserves apart.

Heat Leader And Second String Pairings

1 3 v 1 3

1 2 v 2 3

2 3 v 1 4

3 4 v 1 2

4 5 v 4 5

1 3 v 1 4

1 5 v 2 5

3 4 v 3 5

1 4 v 2 4

1 3 v 1 5

1 2 v 2 5

2 3 v 2 3

3 4 v 1 4

1 3 v 2 4

1 3 v 2 3

1 5 v 3 4

3 5 v 1 2

2 3 v 2 4

1 3 v 3 5

1 2 v 3 4

2 3 v 2 5

3 4 v 2 3

1 5 v 2 4

1 3 v 2 5

1 5 v 4 5

3 5 v 1 4

2 4 v 1 2

1 5 v 1 3

1 2 v 4 5

2 3 v 3 4

3 4 v 2 5

2 4 v 1 3

1 3 v 3 4

2 3 v 1 3

3 5 v 2 3

2 4 v 1 4

1 5 v 1 5

1 4 v 1 2

2 3 v 4 5

3 4 v 3 4

2 4 v 1 5

1 3 v 4 5

2 3 v 1 5

3 5 v 2 5

2 4 v 2 3

1 5 v 3 5

1 4 v 1 4

2 5 v 1 2

3 4 v 4 5

2 4 v 3 5

1 4 v 1 3

2 3 v 3 5

3 5 v 3 4

2 4 v 2 5

3 5 v 1 3

1 4 v 2 3

2 5 v 1 4

4 5 v 1 2

3 5 v 2 4

1 4 v 1 5

2 5 v 1 3

3 5 v 4 5

2 4 v 3 4

3 5 v 1 5

1 4 v 2 5

2 5 v 2 3

4 5 v 1 4

1 2 v 1 3

1 4 v 3 5

2 5 v 1 5

4 5 v 1 3

2 4 v 4 5

3 5 v 3 5

1 4 v 3 4

2 5 v 2 5

4 5 v 2 3

1 2 v 1 5

1 5 v 1 2

2 5 v 3 5

4 5 v 1 5

2 5 v 2 4

1 2 v 1 2

1 4 v 4 5

2 5 v 3 4

4 5 v 2 5

1 2 v 3 5

1 5 v 1 4

3 4 v 1 3

4 5 v 3 5

3 4 v 2 4

1 2 v 1 4

2 3 v 1 2

2 5 v 4 5

4 5 v 3 4

1 3 v 1 2

1 5 v 2 3

3 4 v 1 5

1 2 v 2 4

4 5 v 2 4

 

Second Strings And Reserves Pairings

2 4 v 2 4

2 6 v 4 6

2 7 v 4 6

4 6 v 4 6

4 7 v 4 6

2 4 v 4 6

4 6 v 2 4

2 6 v 6 7

6 7 v 2 6

6 7 v 6 7

2 6 v 4 7

2 7 v 4 7

4 6 v 4 7

4 7 v 4 7

2 4 v 4 7

4 7 v 2 4

2 7 v 6 7

6 7 v 2 7

2 6 v 2 6

2 7 v 2 6

4 6 v 2 6

4 7 v 2 6

2 4 v 2 6

2 6 v 2 4

2 4 v 6 7

4 6 v 6 7

6 7 v 4 6

2 6 v 2 7

2 7 v 2 7

4 6 v 2 7

4 7 v 2 7

2 4 v 2 7

2 7 v 2 4

6 7 v 2 4

4 7 v 6 7

6 7 v 4 7

 

 

Sorting a heat format for the Elite League maybe a case of round pegs square holes which the bspa never thought about

[g13webb]

 

So the opposing #1 comes out in heat 1 and 4 (both times against the home #1) ..... then has to wait till heats 12, 14 and 15 ?

 

 

Can only see the teams lining up in order of averages so any ride that the reserves are in are against the other reserves or second strings.

 

This would mean a home reserve would mainly be against the away reserves three times each and once against the opposing teams 4 and 5. This would mean a powerful reserve could be good for 9 or 10 points while a teams #3 will have some seriously hard races as his easiest ride would be against a second string but most heats against a heat leader.

 

 

The more I look at it I really had wished they had gone with a 36 limit for 6 riders and ONE reserve from the NL as it may be the reserves will be the real match winners or losers in most matches.

 

This has always been my gripe with this new idea. ( As posted in Elite League Draft Riders Topic, Post no.763) Once you change the existing race format , the existing CMA becomes US. By introducing a protected race format, the points and average become null and void. Its all very well having top riders racing each other, but someone will always come last and score few points, but they will still be better riders than the reserves who score lots of points. When the CMA is the governing factor when replacements are required, how can these be relevant when the strength of races are so different.

 

Like you said, One reserve, 6 men on a 36 pts limit, racing to the old format would have been a far better way to go

[MattK]

 

This has always been my gripe with this new idea. ( As posted in Elite League Draft Riders Topic, Post no.763) Once you change the existing race format , the existing CMA becomes US. By introducing a protected race format, the points and average become null and void. Its all very well having top riders racing each other, but someone will always come last and score few points, but they will still be better riders than the reserves who score lots of points. When the CMA is the governing factor when replacements are required, how can these be relevant when the strength of races are so different.

 

The other problem with having "protected" riders is that the race format becomes less of a team meeting and more of a series of pairs races, with the same riders racing each other three or even four times per meeting.

[bigcatdiary]

How about doing away with fixed gates then? Just alternate gates 1&3 and 2&4 every heat so each team gets 7 of each in the programmed races. The team mates then pick the gates they'd like form the two. Darcy may think, "I'm a crap gater anyway, I'll let my team mate have the good gate and I'll race for my points" while a gater like say, Bjarne (more so that most others before anyone jumps in) may pick the better gate to be sure of the 3 points. Adds a further team element and something for the team manger to look out for.

Interesting point but I have read more than the odd story about top riders who would always take the best gate with Dave Jessup the best example, Which is strange when you consider Jessup was a acknowledged trapper.

 

This system should have been done and dusted by the AGM so it could have been presented in the AGM statement, this is so typical of how the sport in this country operates and doesn't inspire confidence, I just hope Jon Cook had nothing to do with it bearing in mind the pigs ear he made of the koc format the other year.

[Barrycuda]

Both old 13 and present 15 heat format had/have well balanced rider pairings. ie heat leader + second string from both teams with rest of the heats made up with heat leader + reserve and second string + reserve.

Even heats 12&13 1 4 v 3 5 and 3 5 v 1 4 old format seemed well balanced.

 

Regarding fix gate postions with present format. Heats 1-4 three out of four either 1&3 or 2&4 looks bad and even worse heats 5-10 five out six either 1&3 or 2&4.

I know that every rider gets each gate position once and that each team gets either seven 1&3 or 2&4 gate postions per 14 heats. As this influenced passed meeting scores or would alternating 1&3/2&4 have been a better way to go.

 

At least I've had a go at trying to do a meeting format and got two 6 7 v 6 7 heats in. Would be interested if anyone bar the ones I have read on this thread could come up with any sort of ideas.

[INCOGNITO]

NOTE Riders that are at reserve will not receive a new average regardless of how many they score and the only average that will affect them is their Premier League average in 2014.

 

 

The problem may be riders like Peter Ljung starting as a teams fifth rider and facing easier races. Their first official average could be hugely inflated meaning a 5 point rider could be replaced by an 8 point rider mid season or a 6 plus rider could drop to below 5 and be picked up by another team and then see them score well due to the easier races.

 

 

Will be interesting to see how many second strings reach heat leader status.

[Crazy robin]

So the opposing #1 comes out in heat 1 and 4 (both times against the home #1) ..... then has to wait till heats 12, 14 and 15 ?

 

 

Can only see the teams lining up in order of averages so any ride that the reserves are in are against the other reserves or second strings.

 

This would mean a home reserve would mainly be against the away reserves three times each and once against the opposing teams 4 and 5. This would mean a powerful reserve could be good for 9 or 10 points while a teams #3 will have some seriously hard races as his easiest ride would be against a second string but most heats against a heat leader.

 

 

The more I look at it I really had wished they had gone with a 36 limit for 6 riders and ONE reserve from the NL as it may be the reserves will be the real match winners or losers in most matches.

Reserve riders will be more important in 2014 than ever before especially as they will stay there for the whole season unlike before when they had to go into the main body after a good scoring run at reserve.

[RobMcCaffery]

As I mentioned earlier, assuming the reserves are not to meet heat leaders and rides will be spread as evenly as possible over 14 programmed heats, plus the nominated race we're facing this:

 

Reserves - four rides, two against reserves only, two against second strings as well

Second Strings - four rides, two with reserves, two with heat leaders

Heat Leaders - this is where it gets tricky since there are three to be accommodated

Four rides each - one heat leader gets two rides with second strings, two with heat leaders;

- two heat leaders get one ride with second strings, three with heat leaders - then heat 15 will probably give them another ride with heat leaders.

 

Many of the declared sides have the third heat-leader on about a 6 point average. The difference between being third heat leader on 6 or a second string in a more evenly-balanced side is quite substantial! One gets reserves in half his rides and heat leaders in his other two while the other gets no reserves and three races with just heat leaders.

 

I do wonder what happens when certain lower-averaged heat leaders work out just how much harder their opposition's going to be in 2014.

 

I've had a go at putting together a formula and the best I can get is this. They're not in meeting order - that's phase two.

 

So, two heats of reserves only:

 

6 7 6 7

6 7 6 7

 

Four heats of second strings and reserves:

 

2 6 4 7

4 7 2 6

2 7 4 6

4 6 2 7

 

Four heats of second strings and heat leaders:

 

1 2 1 2

3 4 3 4

5 2 5 2

5 4 5 4

 

Four heats all heat leaders

 

1 3 3 5

3 5 1 3

1 5 1 5

1 3 1 3

 

Now, try getting those in a logical order, spreading rides out evenly with equal share of gates without hitting the bottle....

[Steve Shovlar]

With heat leaders being kept away from reserves, we will see a dip in the averages of the top guys as they won't have "easy" rides as such.

 

Bet there will be plenty of 8 pointers next year and only a few around 9 or above.

[bigcatdiary]

how about 2 for a win i for a draw and a bonus point over the two legs? seemed so simple at the time

Nice idea but too sensible

[A ORLOV]

With heat leaders being kept away from reserves, we will see a dip in the averages of the top guys as they won't have "easy" rides as such.

 

Bet there will be plenty of 8 pointers next year and only a few around 9 or above.

And will heat leaders push for an increase in points money to make up for the reduction in points they will get in a meeting.

[MattK]

And will heat leaders push for an increase in points money to make up for the reduction in points they will get in a meeting.

 

Could we see a number one rider score 0000?

[A ORLOV]

 

Could we see a number one rider score 0000?

There are a couple of teams where that could happen when riding away if the above race format is close to the one for this year.

 

The more I look at it the more I revert to my first thoughts, the same as a few others, that they should only be bringing in one Brit reserve from the lower leagues, unless they want two. They could have then gone for two in a couple of years time.

Edited January 4, 2014 by A ORLOV

[BluPanther]

 

Could we see a number one rider score 0000?

KK is not riding in the UK this year...

[Barrycuda]

As I mentioned earlier, assuming the reserves are not to meet heat leaders and rides will be spread as evenly as possible over 14 programmed heats, plus the nominated race we're facing this:

 

Reserves - four rides, two against reserves only, two against second strings as well

Second Strings - four rides, two with reserves, two with heat leaders

Heat Leaders - this is where it gets tricky since there are three to be accommodated

Four rides each - one heat leader gets two rides with second strings, two with heat leaders;

- two heat leaders get one ride with second strings, three with heat leaders - then heat 15 will probably give them another ride with heat leaders.

 

Many of the declared sides have the third heat-leader on about a 6 point average. The difference between being third heat leader on 6 or a second string in a more evenly-balanced side is quite substantial! One gets reserves in half his rides and heat leaders in his other two while the other gets no reserves and three races with just heat leaders.

 

I do wonder what happens when certain lower-averaged heat leaders work out just how much harder their opposition's going to be in 2014.

 

I've had a go at putting together a formula and the best I can get is this. They're not in meeting order - that's phase two.

 

So, two heats of reserves only:

 

6 7 6 7

6 7 6 7

 

Four heats of second strings and reserves:

 

2 6 4 7

4 7 2 6

2 7 4 6

4 6 2 7

 

Four heats of second strings and heat leaders:

 

1 2 1 2

3 4 3 4

5 2 5 2

5 4 5 4

 

Four heats all heat leaders

 

1 3 3 5

3 5 1 3

1 5 1 5

1 3 1 3

 

Now, try getting those in a logical order, spreading rides out evenly with equal share of gates without hitting the bottle....

 

1 2 v 1 2

3 4 v 3 4

2 5 v 2 5

6 7 v 6 7

1 3 v 3 5

2 6 v 4 7

4 7 v 2 6

3 5 v 1 3

6 7 v 6 7

1 5 v 1 5

2 7 v 4 6

4 6 v 2 7

1 3 v 1 3

4 5 v 4 5

 

Now to find that bottle rmc

[T.N.T.]

As I mentioned earlier, assuming the reserves are not to meet heat leaders and rides will be spread as evenly as possible over 14 programmed heats, plus the nominated race we're facing this:

 

Reserves - four rides, two against reserves only, two against second strings as well

Second Strings - four rides, two with reserves, two with heat leaders

Heat Leaders - this is where it gets tricky since there are three to be accommodated

Four rides each - one heat leader gets two rides with second strings, two with heat leaders;

- two heat leaders get one ride with second strings, three with heat leaders - then heat 15 will probably give them another ride with heat leaders.

 

I've had a go at putting together a formula and the best I can get is this. They're not in meeting order - that's phase two.

 

Maybe something like .........

 

Teams line up in average order .... so Wolves v Poole would be ....

 

1 5 1 5 ........... Woffinden / Thorssell V Ward / Milik

2 4 2 4 ........... Pawlicki / Wells V Pawlicki / Josh

6 7 6 7 ........... Morris / Jacobs V Newman / Smart

3 4 3 4 ........... Proctor / Wells V Janowski / Josh

2 5 2 5 ........... Pawlicki / Thorssell V Pawlicki / Milik

1 3 1 3 ........... Woffinden / Proctor V Ward / Janowski

5 7 4 6 ........... Thorssell V Jacobs V Josh / Newman

4 6 5 7 ........... Wells / Morris V Milik / Smart

2 3 1 3 ........... Pawlicki / Proctor V Ward V Janowski

6 7 6 7 ........... Morris / Jacobs V Newman / Smart

1 3 2 3 ........... Woffinden / Proctor V Pawlicki / Janowski

5 6 4 7 ........... Thorssell / Morris V Josh / Smart

1 2 1 2 ........... Woffinden / Pawlicki V Ward / Pawlicki

4 7 5 6 ........... Wells / Jacobs V Milik / Newman

N N N N

 

 

Trouble is that #1 faces #1 three times ..... #2 faces #2 three times ...... #3 faces #3 in all their heats !!

 

Going to be good for a team with strong reserves and a strong #3 ...... Poole and Kings Lynn !!

Edited January 4, 2014 by T.N.T.

[T.N.T.]

BELLE VUE v COVENTRY

 

 

1 5 1 5 ........... ZAGAR / 3.00 V ANDERSEN / Howath

2 4 2 4 ........... COOK / Worrall V HARRIS / Fisher

6 7 6 7 ........... Niesen / Reade V Garrity / Sarjeant

3 4 3 4 ........... Nicholls / Worrall V Hansen / Fisher

2 5 2 5 ........... COOK / 3.00 V HARRIS / Howarth

1 3 1 3 ........... ZAGAR / Nicholls V ANDERSEN / Hansen

5 7 4 6 ........... 3.00 / Reade V Fisher / Garrity

4 6 5 7 ........... Worrall / Nielsen V Howarth / Sarjeant

2 3 1 3 ........... COOK / Nicholls V ANDERSEN / Hansen

6 7 6 7 ........... Nielsen / Reade V Garrity / Sarjeant

1 3 2 3 ........... ZAGAR / Nicholls V HARRIS / Hansen

5 6 4 7 ........... 3.00 / Nielsen V Fisher / Sarjeant

1 2 1 2 ........... ZAGAR / COOK V ANDERSEN / HARRIS

4 7 5 6 ........... Worrall / Reade V Howarth / Garrity

N N N N ............

 

Certainly looks like a home win but good tactical possibilities in heats 7 and 12 for Fisher and Garrity !!