When Will The New Race Format Be Out & How Can Teams Name Riders When They Don't Know It?

[stevebrum]

Of course it matters as a top heavy team may just be the wrong set up to go with and a more balanced top five could be more benefiial.

Makes no difference come play off time.

Strength in depth will prob get you to the play offs but top heavy will win it for you.

[jenga]

there will still be 7 man teams, solooks like 7 riders in each team.team average has been set for the top 5 riders and then 2 reserves.. thats 7.. asay SEVEN... format maybe same as sweden/danmark or one of them other countries.. simples..

[ballroom]

the old 13 heat programme always produced some of the best racing in heats 2 and 8 featuring the reserves so they may base it on that

Edited November 26, 2013 by ballroom

[mudflaps]

the old 13 heat programme always produced some of the best racing in heats 2 and 8 featuring the reserves so they may base it on that

So 13 heats for the price of 15!

Bargain!

[Grachan]

 

 

Of course it matters as a top heavy team may just be the wrong set up to go with and a more balanced top five could be more benefiial. However with the reserves having two races together and their other rides against second strings, the draft picks are going to be even more vital to get right.

 

 

I would have thought top-heavy was the way to go, with weak second strings still able to beat opposition reserves.

 

So 13 heats for the price of 15!

Bargain!

 

It wouldn't be 13 heats because you'd have a second reserves heat and a nominated riders heat.

[ballroom]

So 13 heats for the price of 15!

Bargain!

 

all my visits to east of england showground provided bargain speedway hope they run next year

[houdi]

I see it as being 2 reserve races, then second strings & reserves twice, 2 second string races. And then a combination of the top 4 for throughout the rest of the programme. Personally can see the format being pretty similar except maybe heat 2 and 12 being reserve (as eg) and heat 8 and 14 for second strings and reserves (as has been previously but might be more enforced riding positions for this season - ie not putting a heat leader in a race jacket that will get easier rides).

Well if both reserves have 4 rides each, and you have 2 reserve races, then you will have 4 more races with reserves riding in them. So effectively 40% of the heats will have a reserve rider in them. Thus emphasising the huge importance in how the riders are allocated, you can imagine once they are announced some clubs will be less than happy with the 'draft'. No prizes for guessing which club will come up smelling of roses.

Edited November 26, 2013 by houdi

[stevebrum]

the old 13 heat programme always produced some of the best racing in heats 2 and 8 featuring the reserves so they may base it on that

isnt the `old` heats 2 and 8 the same as the current one tho?

 

 

Well if both reserves have 4 rides each, and you have 2 reserve races, then you will have 4 more races with reserves riding in them. So effectively 40% of the heats will have a reserve rider in them. Thus emphasising the huge importance in how the riders are allocated, you can imagine once they are announced some clubs will be less than happy with the 'draft'. No prizes for guessing which club will come up smelling of roses.

Of course the `draft` is going to make some very unhappy. Anyone with any sense knows that reserves win you meetings and Championships. So there are bound to be many clubs very unhappy if the draft doesn't favour them too highly. There are bound to be at least half the clubs believing they SHOULD have the best ones no doubt.

However the draw SHOULD favour those clubs that are ALREADY investing in youth, and not be penalised just because you have 2 riders on your books that will be deemed `unfair` to other clubs. It should be fair i agree however but also fair to those with young Brits on their books.

[500cc]

There is a danger of creating matches within matches if the heat format rules become too stringent.

 

Assuming the reserves get four programmed rides and they are protected from heat leaders (do we still have three of those or has modern speedway downgraded to two?) then this is the type of scenario we get.

 

67 v 67

26 v 26

47 v 47

27 v 46

46 v 27

67 v 67

 

That leaves 8 heats

1, 3 and 5 on each side is in half those heats.

 

Your now struggling to create pairings that really should be a staple of team speedway. 2 and 4 only have 2 rides left. You could pair them with 1 and 3 for those rides. But then 5 rides with another heat leader in all four of his heats.

 

Regardless of the format of these 8 heats, there is a danger of a top heavy team dominating that section. Now the reserves will to an extent by a lottery due to inexperience. But if your team hits on successful reserves combined with top end strength I'd doubt second strings will have much influence on the result.

 

I'm not sure I'd totally protect the youngsters from the big boys. There will be occasions that a youngster will outscore a Darcy Ward in a heat. That will happen, we already know that. I'd certainly have one ride where they are in with the big boys. Adds a bit to their experience and will better balance the heat set-ups. I'd also have a lead reserve riding at 6. There is going to be a difference. The lead reserve will typically be a rider at PL reserve level. The other reserve will be an NL second string. I'd expose the lead reserve to the slightly tougher programme and be restrictive on the ability to switch them around.

 

I'd also have supplemental reserves in the top 5. The impact of a youngster getting hot (we saw in in the PL a few years ago), replacing weaker second strings and staying at reserve all year will distort matches too much. I've never believed any rider should get 7 rides unless injuries dictates anyway.

 

As I say, we need to be careful with the format. Allow the youngsters some competitive races, let them gain experience against the better riders, but protect the integrity of the match as a competition at the same time.

[500cc]

I should just add for clarity that my example of a reserve beating a Darcy Ward was primarily as a result of the top rider failing to score (exclusion ,ef etc). And that was the point really; a near certain 3 and 0 can turn into a 0 and 1; a four point swing.

[Joseq7]

Is this "new format" just for the EL?

Not the PL too?

 

I must admit I totally missed this in the SCB statement after the AGM.

I knew about the "draft" reserves from the NL.

 

If it brings on young British riders then it's got to be a good thing..............eventually.

I don't follow an EL team anyway.

[naffer]

I have seen the statement saying there will be two reserve races, but where does this reserves only riding against second strings come from?

Agree with the comments that a second reserve race should be earlier that heat 14.

That was tried before with the 8 man teams era and it was not successful.

I think it needs to be before heat 8 .

[Humphrey Appleby]

Your now struggling to create pairings that really should be a staple of team speedway. 2 and 4 only have 2 rides left. You could pair them with 1 and 3 for those rides. But then 5 rides with another heat leader in all four of his heats.

Yes, the format is not going to work with 7-rider teams unless a reserve is paired with at least one heat leader on occasions. It's not just about the pairings, but ensuring riders aren't programmed to have two on the trot, or indeed on too many occasions with just a heat in-between their programmed rides.

 

A second reserves' race isn't the best idea either, as there will be no cover in the event of injury.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Humphrey Appleby

[SteveLyric2]

As it is also rumoured that r/r will take immediate effect in the event of injury, then presumably each team will have to have a named Number 8, who could also cover for a reserve injury!!

Edited November 27, 2013 by Skidder1

[skthecat]

What would be wrong with riders riding with there team numbers in order of there current abilities/scoring power/current average?

 

1 = strongest, 5 least strongest.??

At least it would be easier for newbies to grasp...

and would it make much difference to race formats, they'd just have to modify the race line ups ro to balance the races? Wouldn't they?

As for reserve only races, keep one at ht 2 and the other around ht 6/7

Edited November 27, 2013 by Never to old

[foamfence]

What would be wrong with riders riding with there team numbers in order of there current abilities/scoring power/current average?

 

1 = strongest, 5 least strongest.??

At least it would be easier for newbies to grasp...

and would it make much difference to race formats, they'd just have to modify the race line ups ro to balance the races? Wouldn't they?

As for reserve only races, keep one at ht 2 and the other around ht 6/7

It takes away the managers right to make his own pairings.

[Phil]

Duplicate topics merged.

[MattK]

What would be wrong with riders riding with there team numbers in order of there current abilities/scoring power/current average?1 = strongest, 5 least strongest.?

I wouldn't be surprised if this is how they implement it.

 

Otherwise I can't see how the reserves will be "protected" from the opposition's heat leaders.

Edited November 27, 2013 by MattK

[T.N.T.]

this was the format in the BL in 1990:

 

1/2 v 1/2

6/7 v 6/7

5/4 v 5/4

3/6 v 3/7

5/4 v 1/2

1/2 v 3/6

3/6 v 5/4

2/7 v 2/7

5/4 v 3/6

1/2 v 5/4

3/7 v 1/2

1/4 v 3/5

3/5 v 1/4

6/7 v 6/7

nominated

 

in other words the old 13 heat formula + an extra reserve heat + hig scorers.

can't see much wrong with this tbh.

 

 

There has to be a rule put in place that ensures 7 and 8+ riders are not in the heats alongside reserves

 

 

Whichever way they go, there is going to be teams looking for loop holes from day one like signing a 4+ rider, getting him to average 6+ in easier heats against NL reserves and then replace him with a real 6+ rider who becomes a 7+ rider !

Edited November 28, 2013 by T.N.T.

[skthecat]

 

 

There has to be a rule put in place that ensures 7 and 8+ riders are not in the heats alongside reserves

 

 

Whichever way they go, there is going to be teams looking for loop holes from day one like signing a 4+ rider, getting him to average 6+ in easier heats against NL reserves and then replace him with a real 6+ rider who becomes a 7+ rider !

▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲ please explain this 4+ to 6+, get rid for a proper 6+ who'll then burst open into a 7+ rider???

Whats that all about, Alfie?