British Speedway Promoters Meeting

[MattK]

It does seem we only get the headlines from the B.S.P.A meetings, and never the complete information people want .. I always get the feeling they do not want the fans to know to much,, especially if they dont really know what they are doing themselves...

I think it's more a case of they don't know and they'll make it up at a later date.

[BluPanther]

Four heats with no heat leaders in the 'Elite' lge with the new race format. I presume the Prem lge wont be adopting this new format ? Can anyone confirm this pls...

[pandorum]

 

So just to clarify.

NOT the BSPA statement.

AND PR never said anything about only TWO programmed rides for reserves.

 

Thank goodness that's clear, now.

We don't want to get all confused.

 

 

That is true but what he infers is exactly that. He says that reserves will only ride among themselves which is not what Cook said. This would infer thay have 2 rides.

I being one of those unable to grasp or pay attention to what was being said figured that with one read and did not even have to read it again and again like some.

It's the Swedish #2 and #11 model obviously with some, as yet to be announced, changes to 'protect' the NL riders by giving them further rides (I presume 2 to make 4 programmed rides) against second strings. But of course the #2 and #4 position do not always feature second string riders so we will have the further complication of having to constrain team order.

The whole thing will get so complicated it will probably just implode and they will just leave NL lads to sink or swim because they are cheap.

Edited November 20, 2013 by pandorum

[Shale Shaker]

 

 

That is true but what he infers is exactly that. He says that reserves will only ride among themselves which is not what Cook said. This would infer thay have 2 rides.

I being one of those unable to grasp or pay attention to what was being said figured that with one read and did not even have to read it again and again like some.

 

Indeed perhaps some of the cognoscenti here ought to have read and re-read again, and again and again and again.............etc

Edited November 20, 2013 by Shale Shaker

[mudflaps]

I wouldnt pay good Petrol Money and entrance money to watch this rubbishe @ the EOES anyhow

- so maybe Frosty was right to call it a day!

 

Would rather watch good close P/L racing any day of the week!

[Grand Central]

Four heats with no heat leaders in the 'Elite' lge with the new race format. I presume the Prem lge wont be adopting this new format ? Can anyone confirm this pls...

Well, I can't confirm it, but I can agree that this is looking likely.

 

Of course back in 1993 when they upped the number of lesser riders in the main teams and created more 'protected' races in the format for them they also increased the total numer of races in the match to 18.

That was part of the compromise, I suppose.

 

I have no idea whether that is going to happen this time.

My cynical side says not.

 

If the development of British riders was truly the main focus of this decision then the rides for the youngsters would be extra to the normal 15 we pay full price for.

 

But if they are subsumed within a fifteen heat format then the cost cutting will be seen as being overwhelming.

Having only 11 or 12 fully fledged First Division heats in a match will be just too few.

In my opinion.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Grand Central

[Grand Central]

That is true but what he infers is exactly that. He says that reserves will only ride among themselves which is not what Cook said. This would infer thay have 2 rides.

(

Not quite true..

PR was writing before Cook gave his extra information.

And PR never mentioned anything about TWO rides.

It could easily have been more, say three, races among themselves.

 

Fixating on TWO rides was never a reasonable inference from the very, very brief teaser statement from PR.

[A ORLOV]

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is true but what he infers is exactly that. He says that reserves will only ride among themselves which is not what Cook said. This would infer thay have 2 rides.

I being one of those unable to grasp or pay attention to what was being said figured that with one read and did not even have to read it again and again like some.

It's the Swedish #2 and #11 model obviously with some, as yet to be announced, changes to 'protect' the NL riders by giving them further rides (I presume 2 to make 4 programmed rides) against second strings. But of course the #2 and #4 position do not always feature second string riders so we will have the further complication of having to constrain team order.

The whole thing will get so complicated it will probably just implode and they will just leave NL lads to sink or swim because they are cheap.

pandorum I posted in the elite league section about positions 2 and 4 probably having to be for the riders with the lowest averages, which as you say does restrain team order.

Edited November 20, 2013 by A ORLOV

[pandorum]

Not quite true..

PR was writing before Cook gave his extra information.

And PR never mentioned anything about TWO rides.

It could easily have been more, say three, races among themselves.

 

Fixating on TWO rides was never a reasonable inference from the very, very brief teaser statement from PR.

You are being nonsensical now.

The idea that NL reserves would be given 3 rides against each other is too daft even for the BSPA and to be frank not even worth discussing or arguing with. You know as well as all of us here how many reserves races they are talking about.

 

I concede PR was speaking before the Cook statement but what he said did indeed infer two rides at NL standard for reserve.

That is the only way to read what he said. And to be fair to me I never said he did say anything about TWO rides.

And I was not 'Fixating' on anything simply mentioning that the PR post infererred that reserves would have 2 rides which it clearly does.

He may not have meant to infer that but that is what he inferred conciously or otherwise and it led to a lot of confusion for those who are 'in the know' who went on to chastise the rest of us for being too dim to understand the fact that reserves would only have 2 rides. Which was never the case.

Edited November 20, 2013 by pandorum

[Grand Central]

You are being nonsensical now.

The idea that NL reserves would be given 3 rides against each other is too daft even for the BSPA and to be frank not even worth discussing or arguing with. You know as well as all of us here how many reserves races they are talking about.

 

I concede PR was speaking before the Cook statement but what he said did indeed infer two rides at NL standard for reserve.

That is the only way to read what he said. And to be fair to me I never said he did say anything about TWO rides.

And I was not 'Fixating' on anything simply mentioning that the PR post infererred that reserves would have 2 rides which it clearly does.

He may not have meant to infer that but that is what he infered conciously or otherwise and it led to a lot of confusion for those who are 'in the know' who went on to chastise the rest of us for being too dim to understand the fact that reserves would only have 2 rides. Which was never the case.

As you say not worth arguing about.

 

Try and be a little less touchy, though.

My contribution on this point started with correcting another person's fixation on the two ride point.

It was he that had the fixation

It was you that joined in and have got caught in the crossfire.

[Vince]

So if we look at this with a glass half full attitude based on what we know and a lot of assumptions.

 

If the riding order is fixed as regards heat leader and second string we will see no more reserve vs GP rider programmed races.

 

We will see more 'like for like' races which should be more competitive. Better racing at a stroke!

 

The fast-track riders get to race only against one another and second strings of a standard they would be likely to meet in the PL anyway.

 

However if the pit order was 3-6-1-7-5 those youngsters would get the opportunity to learn about set up's and attitude from some of the best in the world. It always seems to me that once you get to the top class set-up's are where the Brits struggle.

 

If, as fans we stop looking for more World class riders and aim to develop EL second strings and heat leaders to populate our own leagues then there is a good chance of success. If that happens the World class riders will emerge in time. Those with the talent and attitude to become world class will succeed in any system but at least this will give encouragement to youngsters to get into and stay in the sport, the more of them there are the more likely that exceptional talents will appear.

 

There is a real opportunity to progress these youngsters if the whole package can be put in place with regard to training in all aspects of the sport.

 

What's not to like

[Grand Central]

On a different, but related aspect.

 

I wonder what effect these changes will have on the thorny subject of averages.

The NL reserves will have their own which will not matter about team positions as they are locked in at reserve.

 

But if the NL guys are protected from Heat Leaders, but meet second strings, that will upset the other figures too.

It will mean that the second things will have some average-inflating easy rides.

And just to balance things up the format will mean that the Heat Leaders will be meeting each other proportionately more often; thereby deflating their averages.

 

We will end up with three sets of averages for Heat Leaders, Second Strings and Reserves.

None of which are directly comparable to each other.

 

That should make life even more interesting mid-season.

My money is on Matt finding an 'edge' for his team in the resulting melee.

[pandorum]

As you say not worth arguing about.

 

Try and be a little less touchy, though.

My contribution on this point started with correcting another person's fixation on the two ride point.

It was he that had the fixation

It was you that joined in and have got caught in the crossfire.

No worries This kind of debate will get a little heated especially when we have such vague information from the powers that be.

 

Your point about averages also adds to the maelstrom of utter confusion I think this idea will generate.

The reserve may well be 'protected from heat leaders but what happens when a heat leader rides at #2 or #4 for an away meet?

 

I think this whole idea is ill thought out and will unravell as the months count down to the new season.

We fans are highlighting how complicated this whole idea will be a few days after it was 'thought' (and I use that word loosely) of.

 

What happens when a top 5 rider retires with a bruised shoulder in heat 3?

The reserves will pick up the slack so thier protection goes out the window.

What provision will be made to help them be competetive at EL level.

 

We will see more 'like for like' races which should be more competitive. Better racing at a stroke!

 

 

This will only happen if there are constraints on the riding order.

What is to stop Matt Ford putting Darcy Ward at #2 or #4?

Edited November 20, 2013 by pandorum

[John Leslie]

What is to stop Matt Ford putting Darcy Ward at #2 or #4?

Rule 18.1a

[Star Lady]

Apologies if it has been mentioned but there is so much negativity on here I've only skim read most of it.

 

On the subject of will this improve NL riders, surely being in the same environment as top class riders can only benefit them. Whilst I appreciate that there are some purely selfish top class riders about, there are enough helpful ones around to pass on tips re tuning/riding lines/gearing etc for the youngsters to learn from. Even being in the same pits and watching the professionalism needed to get to the top flight has to be of benefit.

 

From the little I have read so far, I see this as a postive move IF the fans give it time. It won't improve things overnight but if it helps young Brits and at the same time allows clubs to have a more positive financial situation, what's the problem.

 

I have no idea who the NL riders will ride against in a match, whose asset they will become or how exactly they will be allocated. All will become clear in time. The BSPA have ALWAYS dripfed information from the conference it allows clubs to send out fresh info in their press releases during the close season to keep the die hards happy and hopefully get a few column inches in the local rag.

[Vince]

This will only happen if there are constraints on the riding order.

What is to stop Matt Ford putting Darcy Ward at #2 or #4?

 

Keep up, read the second line of my post again

[pandorum]

Rule 18.1a

I did not know they had a rule to specifically stop Darcy riding at #2 or #4.

 

I kid of course but was just seriously asking whether they riding order was constrained to prevent heat leaders being jiggled about for away matches.

And now I know we do have a rule for that.

So teams can move #2 and #4 about but not put the #1 to #3 in those positions.

That gives the kids half a chance which is good.

They will also get the odd opportunity to pit themselves against heat leader covering exclusions and withdrawls which is also good.

 

If you look at the rise of Pawel Przedpelski in Poland, who was drafted by Torun a couple of seasons back and scored the odd point but was persevered with and is now one of the top kids in Poland who has regularly beaten GP riders,then you can see the potential benefits.

But this is the BSPA we are talking about and that sort of dampens my enthusiasm as they are nothing short of incompetents but I agree we should give it a chance. Maybe for once they will get it right. Crazier things have happened.

 

Keep up, read the second line of my post again

It is hard to keep up with all the ill informed waffle some people have put on here (not saying you so don't have aheart attack) as some kind of gospel but one tries ones best.

Edited November 20, 2013 by pandorum

[Grand Central]

Apologies if it has been mentioned but there is so much negativity on here I've only skim read most of it.

 

On the subject of will this improve NL riders, surely being in the same environment as top class riders can only benefit them. Whilst I appreciate that there are some purely selfish top class riders about, there are enough helpful ones around to pass on tips re tuning/riding lines/gearing etc for the youngsters to learn from. Even being in the same pits and watching the professionalism needed to get to the top flight has to be of benefit.

 

From the little I have read so far, I see this as a postive move IF the fans give it time. It won't improve things overnight but if it helps young Brits and at the same time allows clubs to have a more positive financial situation, what's the problem.

 

I have no idea who the NL riders will ride against in a match, whose asset they will become or how exactly they will be allocated. All will become clear in time. The BSPA have ALWAYS dripfed information from the conference it allows clubs to send out fresh info in their press releases during the close season to keep the die hards happy and hopefully get a few column inches in the local rag.

It would be an absolute delight if such a positive outcome were forthcoming.

 

Unfortunately my involvement back in 1993, and to a lesser extent in 1986, when similar moves were made, makes me very pessimistic.

Back then there were far more top line riders who were fully committed to Britain who could have been able to offer all the things you mention to the Juniors promoted at the time.

It never happened.

They were paid minimal monies and got diddly-squat from the 'big guys' in the team.

 

I have no reason to believe it will be any better this time.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Grand Central

[iris123]

If Heinz came out tomorrow and said "Business isn't doing so well at the moment, so we are going to use lower quality ingredients to save costs. The flavour won't be as good, but there will be more of it" then I would no longer spend my money on Heinz tomato ketchup!

 

Some supporters on here, particuarly the more outspoken members, seem to believe that we owe the sport, and that we should attend in times of good and bad, in a way that is true, but when the product has been drastically altered then that's not the case and as a consumer you should not accept a lower standard of product or you allow it to become a precedent.

 

I am not saying that promoters should run themselves in to the ground maintaining a league they cannot afford, I'm telling them they need to open their eyes and look outside of the speedway box. Watch how the world around you conducts their business and learn a thing or two about modern day marketing and the power of social media.

The Heinz Beans thing is as Humphrey say's a completely different can of stuff.Hardly compares to speedway.

 

Firstly you very very rarely if at all get someone in the food industry who is willing to pump endless amounts of money into a company just because he loves beans.If we equate Heinz with the BSPA then i am pretty sure if Heinz was fairing the same as Elite Speedway then a hatchet job would be done on the factories producing the product.Factories closed and staff layed off.We wouldn't be looking at getting in some young riders at reserve,we would be looking at closing down many of the tracks and putting riders out of a job.If push came to shove the Heinz boss might quite easily close down pretty much all British production and move lock stock and barrel into a cheaper country like Poland where he could produce the same product far cheaper and you would still get your beans on the plate.Now the BSPA can hardly shut up shop and move over to Poland or China or somewhere cheaper and still give you on your doorstep the speedway league you want......

[Guest]

It would be an absolute delight if such a positive outcome were forthcoming.

 

Unfortunately my involvement back in 1993, and to a lesser extent in 1986, when similar moves were made, makes me very pessimistic.

Back then there were far more top line riders who were fully committed to Britain who could have been able to offer all the things you mention to the Juniors promoted at the time.

It never happened.

They were paid minimal monies and got diddly-squat from the 'big guys' in the team.

 

I have no reason to believe it will be any better this time.

 

Let's be realistic. Why should leading riders in a team help develop juniors/newcomers? The juniors/newcomers progress and improvement means they will climb up the team ladder and force out the current leading rider who is training them.

Would you at work help to improve a newcomer in the knowledge that they as they become more experienced they will eventually replace you and as an outcome you will then be without a job?