British Speedway Promoters Meeting

[orion]

Youre right because they wont ride against the No1 in any of their heats!!

I expect once rr kicks in then your going to see these Nl riders taking on a lot of the top riders .

Edited November 19, 2013 by orion

[Tom Turner]

If anybody truly believes British reserves are to help rebuild British speedway or provide a better experience then you are sorely mistaken.

 

The only reason we are using British reserves is because they are cheap and have nowhere else to ride. This will allow us to cut down on international riders who do not want to race such a large British schedule and in turn allows the promoters to stage more meetings in a year. This is a misguided approach to generate more revenue through less overheads and additional fixtures. It will not work.

 

I am completely blown away by the ignorance of out of touch promoters who seem to think the internet can be ignored. When will they learn that GROWTH is key and not RETENTION! If online marketing was properly utilized it would not take long before we would have higher quality racing, higher attendances and lower ticket prices.

 

So many businesses have went from zero to hero simply by using the internet to it's full potential. 75% of the UK is connected to the internet daily and it doesn't cost a penny to generate hype. There are so many missed opportunities that are slowly killing the sport.

 

Why on earth anybody would think Sky is better for speedway than internet marketing I simply do not understand. People do not just turn on speedway to find out what it is!

Edited November 19, 2013 by Synikalle

[SteveLyric2]

Not disputing the need for more/better online marketing, but I would be interested to know exactly how that would produce 'higher quality racing'??

 

Would the rider in 2nd, 3rd or 4th place be tweeting his partner away in the lead to slow down a bit?

[NJC71]

 

The BSPA are the promoters of EL and PL promotions. The Chairmen of stand alone NL teams are 'affiliated' to the BSPA, usually under the direction of Peter Morrish.

 

Just a few points to correct some wrong assumptions above.

 

The idea may be new to the UK, but it already works well in both the Polish and Swedish leagues. We are copying something that works for leagues that are more successful than us at the moment.

Riders will not be NL only, as they will be a mix of the better young riders in both the NL and PL. John Cook has already explained this in his interview in the SGP site.

Riders wil be riding similar standard riders in most of their races, so they will not be riding above other riders as much as they do in say the PL. A rider may be racing above their level of ability but no more than any other rider who takes a step up in either the EL, PL, NL or the JDL's. It's how riders develop and always will be.

It's already been stated that the 20 or so riders would be allocated with respect to where they are based.[/QCCB9quote]

 

I can see your point about Sweden/Poland Dave but I have reservations. If you look at the standard of the young reserves in Sweden, e.g. Anton Rosen and Jacob Thorsell and compare them with the majority of the NL riders there is a big gap in quality and experience. Even our very top young kids like Lewis Kerr are a little way behind and Lewis is probably the exception, he's not a typical NL rider. Would Lewis have progressed as much this season had he ridden at reserve all year in the EL and not in the PL? I doubt it and I bet most of these 20 NL riders probably won't get PL places next year.

 

I would like to have seen this introduced into the PL first to get that natural progression. I fear pushing these lads into the EL in this manor is a step too far for most. They can't ride against each other in every heat. The EL is riddled with R/R historically so there are bound to be occasions where they have to take 5 or 6 rides. I don't see what they will learn from riding against typical EL riders before they can walk.

Edited November 19, 2013 by NJC71

[Tsunami]

I wish people would take the trouble to read the latest posts from those 'in the know' eg Tsunami, amongst others.

 

Also the statement on www.speedwaygp.com by Jon Cook gives more detail and fills in some of the gaps in the original (rushed!) headline statement issued Sunday.

Just to clarify this point. In this case I am not 'in the know' as the idea came as a bit of a surprise to me as well as others. What I have done is read, read again and enquire about the proposal, and formed an opinion based on those facts and what has been explained. Perhaps if others did likewise, this might help them to understand what is being proposed and being discussed.

 

Whilst this is reducing the overall strength of the British League teams, one has to ask whether now might have been the time to ditch the top riders, and get the then EL a lot nearer to the stable strength of the PL, and consider a serious intention of promotion and relegation. The promoted team would of course need help in it's first year up, but without the top riders and their wages, and the introduction of fast track young Brits, that might be a possible basis for the sport for the next few years.

 

Synikalle has stated that the fast tracking was "to lower costs", but would also get rid of poor foreign riders. Can anybody really disagree with that objective/intention.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Tsunami

[Tom Turner]

Not disputing the need for more/better online marketing, but I would be interested to know exactly how that would produce 'higher quality racing'??

 

Would the rider in 2nd, 3rd or 4th place be tweeting his partner away in the lead to slow down a bit?

 

It's really simple Skidder. The internet can literally double crowds in less than a season or 2. I am so confident of this that I would work for any Elite League club free of charge for 1 season just to show you how effective this method is.

 

The extra crowds will generate additional revenue. The additional revenue can be spent on better riders and better track surfaces that riders can race with confidence. Riders have said publically about how they are not confident to give it their all on a lot of our tracks and therefore the racing quality is heavily compromised. The high quality racing will support the online marketing and the attendances will snowball.

[Vince]

Why do people assume that when people debate these issue they are assuming they know more than the BSPA?

It's a discussion forum and people are discussing things.

 

People discuss football without running Man Utd or managing the England team so why can't they do it in speedway?

I once discussed the Moon landings but am not an astronaut.

 

Anybody can have any opinion they like but there are some saying that the BSPA are stupid or have no idea when it seems quite clear that they are the only people with all the information. We all think that they sometimes make silly decisions, sometimes it's easy to see in retrospect that the right decision wasn't made, but very rarely do we fully understand the whole story of why a decision was taken.

 

Saying that in your opinion they are wrong is fine, assuming that because they take a different course to what you would like to see because they are stupid just seems daft to me.

[pandorum]

Just to clarify this point. In this case I am not 'in the know' as the idea came as a bit of a surprise to me as well as others. What I have done is read, read again and enquire about the proposal, and formed an opinion based on those facts and what has been explained. Perhaps if others did likewise, this might help them to understand what is being proposed and being discussed.

 

 

So you are saying the rest of us are basing our opinions on WHAT exactly?

You have read and read again. What does that mean and how does that make your opinion more worthy than any of us?

It is being discussed and people like you who are apparently a bit more involved add a very important contribution and yes maybe you know a little more than the rest of us.

 

But I presume most of us can read here and we have read what has been said by the BSPA/Cook statements. Perhaps we have not read it as many times as you but what you say seems a bit patronizing.

 

I used to build bridges for a living and once got drunk with Iron Maiden but that does not mean I think I am smarter than anyone here or more important or that my opinion carries more weight than anyone else.

Perhaps if others did likewise, this might help them to understand that we are all speedway fans here and entitled to our opinions even if they are based on incomplete information.

Edited November 19, 2013 by pandorum

[TheReturn]

Anybody can have any opinion they like but there are some saying that the BSPA are stupid or have no idea when it seems quite clear that they are the only people with all the information.

Exactly Vince. Why put out a press release Sunday with only HALF the information. It's amateurish and therefore YOU should not blame people on here for getting facts wrong based on half a story on Sunday night.

 

BSPA should have had a full press release with all the new rules and facts Sunday or delayed announcement until one was ready.

 

Whichever way you look at it, the BSPA have taken half a good idea and messed it up or messed the announcement up.

Just to clarify this point. In this case I am not 'in the know' as the idea came as a bit of a surprise to me as well as others. What I have done is read, read again and enquire about the proposal, and formed an opinion based on those facts and what has been explained. Perhaps if others did likewise, this might help them to understand what is being proposed and being discussed.

 

 

If all the facts had been presented Sunday night then maybe people could have done that!

[Elephantman]

Anybody can have any opinion they like but there are some saying that the BSPA are stupid or have no idea when it seems quite clear that they are the only people with all the information. We all think that they sometimes make silly decisions, sometimes it's easy to see in retrospect that the right decision wasn't made, but very rarely do we fully understand the whole story of why a decision was taken.

 

Saying that in your opinion they are wrong is fine, assuming that because they take a different course to what you would like to see because they are stupid just seems daft to me.

The interesting thing I noted is that Cook states that this is an Elite League decision; does that mean it is not a BSPA decision the two are not one and the same are they? I believe this is a poorly thought out scheme.

 

If you are attempting to build a pyramid for developing young riders you don't put them in at the top; I could understand this scheme if the PL were obliged to take two young English NL riders and the Elite forced to take two more experienced English PL riders.

BSPA should have had a full press release with all the new rules and facts Sunday or delayed announcement until one was ready.

I refer to Cooks statement on the BSPA website, "Elite promoters’ decision to follow our Swedish and Polish League counterparts by including two British youngsters at six and seven in all 2014 line-ups". You are absolutely correct the full detail should have been available and published. However this reads as if the Elite League have gone for this scheme on the day; with little forethought or planning; hence the inability to make an informed announcement.

 

Now I suggest that if the supposed "Elite" are making policy on the hoof, then speedway is in more of a hole than we all thought it was!

[Tsunami]

So you are saying the rest of us are basing our opinions on WHAT exactly?

You have read and read again. What does that mean and how does that make your opinion more worthy than any of us?

It is being discussed and people like you who are apparently a bit more involved add a very important contribution and yes maybe you know a little more than the rest of us.

 

But I presume most of us can read here and we have read what has been said by the BSPA/Cook statements. Perhaps we have not read it as many times as you but what you say seems a bit patronizing.

 

I used to build bridges for a living and once got drunk with Iron Maiden but that does not mean I think I am smarter than anyone here or more important or that my opinion carries more weight than anyone else.

Perhaps if others did likewise, this might help them to understand that we are all speedway fans here and entitled to our opinions even if they are based on incomplete information.

And there is the rub.

Opinions and statements, ignoring what information that is in posts that could inform you and others of the real situation/explanation. There are untrue and misleading basic facts being repeated time and time again, despite others like me trying to help to correct those statements.

If, as you seem to agree, that your decisions are being made that are based on incomplete information, what then does that say about the very conclusions that you arrive at. Before anybody jumps in and says "were're all entitled to our opinions", I agree, but to ignore the real facts makes the decisions and conclusions rather flawed.

[g13webb]

Reading the article in the EDP, Rob Lyons added another description of the riders, able to facilitate the reserve berths in the team, as those riders being able to ride in the National League. This could eliminate some names, already mentioned.

[arthur cross]

To anyone championing the graded-reserves system for youngsters in Poland and Sweden as the blueprint for it also working over here ...

 

Have you stopped to consider that in both those countries, most of their leagues operate on a regular season of around 14 to 18 meetings with each individual league operating on a "once a week, therefore once at home a fortnight" fixture-list ... hence there's comfortably enough time each week for youngsters to ride in those countries' higher divisions as graded youngsters gaining valuable experience while also taking part in lower divisions where they can be fully competitive, especially in Sweden where the Elit League is almost totally a Tuesday-league and the Allsvenskan (their version of our Premier) is almost totally a Thursday-league.

 

However, for various reasons, British speedway has persisted whenever possible with operating its leagues on a "twice a week, once at home, once away" fixture-list so that tracks become well-known for which day of the week is their "home night" ... indeed, plenty of the posters on this thread have said how much they welcome the return to a balanced schedule of 36-meetings instead of the unbalanced 28-meetings because that will clearly mean fewer gaps in their liking for a home meeting on their team's night every week.

 

Trouble is, this desire for "home every week" speedway in both our top 2 divisions is going to cause many more fixture clashes for British graded youngsters than would be the case for their equivalents in Poland or Sweden ... even if a youngster ends up with a tidy trio of clubs with different home nights (eg Wolves on a Monday, Isle of Wight on a Tuesday and Sheffield on a Thursday), it's going to be a minefield for any fixture scheduler to avoid clashes for away meetings (eg, Eastbourne v Wolves, Workington v Sheffield and Stoke v Isle of Wight all on the same Saturday !!).

 

It's another reason why I reckon this project of "2 graded young Brits" per Elite team is far too ambitious ... but, as I've said before on this thread, it could work if it was scaled down to "1 graded young Brit" per Elite team with the other reserve place still based on general averages and open to any nationality (although clearly that would require the 32.50 point limit for 5 riders to become something like 36.50-for-6).

[The Doctor...]

I used to build bridges for a living and once got drunk with Iron Maiden but that does not mean I think I am smarter than anyone here or more important or that my opinion carries more weight than anyone else.

 

 

I'll see your Iron maiden and raise it with a Bucks Fizz.. I once got drunk in a bar at JFK with two of Bucks Fizz but sadly one of them wasn't Cheryl Baker..and that certainly doesnt make me a good singer.

[milky]

Someone suggested that the two leagues should get to more or less the same level of riders, not a bad idea in some ways, then have a sort of elite league with the best ten or twelve stadiums, then a lower league with the not so good stadiums. Take lakeside out of top league for example because the stadium is, well not a stadium, a bit like the football league, that you have to improve the ground and stadium to gain a league and win promotion.

[Tsunami]

 

The BSPA are the promoters of EL and PL promotions. The Chairmen of stand alone NL teams are 'affiliated' to the BSPA, usually under the direction of Peter Morrish.

 

Just a few points to correct some wrong assumptions above.

 

The idea may be new to the UK, but it already works well in both the Polish and Swedish leagues. We are copying something that works for leagues that are more successful than us at the moment.

Riders will not be NL only, as they will be a mix of the better young riders in both the NL and PL. John Cook has already explained this in his interview in the SGP site.

Riders wil be riding similar standard riders in most of their races, so they will not be riding above other riders as much as they do in say the PL. A rider may be racing above their level of ability but no more than any other rider who takes a step up in either the EL, PL, NL or the JDL's. It's how riders develop and always will be.

It's already been stated that the 20 or so riders would be allocated with respect to where they are based.[/QCCB9quote]

 

I can see your point about Sweden/Poland Dave but I have reservations. If you look at the standard of the young reserves in Sweden, e.g. Anton Rosen and Jacob Thorsell and compare them with the majority of the NL riders there is a big gap in quality and experience. Even our very top young kids like Lewis Kerr are a little way behind and Lewis is probably the exception, he's not a typical NL rider. Would Lewis have progressed as much this season had he ridden at reserve all year in the EL and not in the PL? I doubt it and I bet most of these 20 NL riders probably won't get PL places next year.

 

I would like to have seen this introduced into the PL first to get that natural progression. I fear pushing these lads into the EL in this manor is a step too far for most. They can't ride against each other in every heat. The EL is riddled with R/R historically so there are bound to be occasions where they have to take 5 or 6 rides. I don't see what they will learn from riding against typical EL riders before they can walk.

I can fully understand your reservations, because to me, it is not the idea that is the problem but the application of it. Rosen, in Sweden with about 4 GP riders in each meeting, has a relative similarity about it with Kerr and the current EL riders. Both the rider and the team strengths are relatively lower. Note also you are saying NL riders, when the likelyhood is half PL riders and half of the best NL riders, so they not wobblers.

If they are best chosen, the riders agree with the situation,commitment and terms, and allocated fairly without intervention, then I am thinking the whole idea would be great, It will remove the resident foreign riders and their costs, and could be instrumental in bringing through their Brit replacements. Obviously, discussions are currently under way, and further meetings planned, but if there is a reasonable will for it to work, we could have some success on our hands. The situation needed out the box thinking, well we have it, and we have to make it work.

[The White Knight]

So, am I to assume my 'BL team' will comprise a 1-5 of one or two Elite League riders, three or four double uppers. This will be topped up by NL riders at six and seven? Looks like £10 Adult speedway admission price has arrived!

 

Not a prayer.

So we are not allowed opinions? Just because the promoters put their money in and run the clubs does not, in all cases, mean they know what they're doing.

 

 

BUT we DO have to Pay our Money to watch what they put before us don't we? Without all of us 'Supporters' THEY would not be able to indulge in their Speedway Business either. We are only doing what all Supporters of any Sport do - we are discussing our Speedway based on the Information that we are given.

 

The point is that this particular Announcement has been a cock up from the start. We should all be prepared to wait until the Promoters can put out a very detailed Public Statement with all the implications that are involved. I know people like me would be moaning about 'what the hell is going on' - but - in retrospect THAT would have been the sensible thing to do.

 

I too read and reread the Statements of both the BSPA and Jon Cooke - I Posted on here based on what I read - I still haven't changed my mind one jot - on what we know so far - this is NOT a great idea.

 

What a mess!!!

 

On the face of it the idea ticks a number of boxes.

It helps cut costs.

It makes it easier for clubs to keep the top boys in the UK.

Which makes the league more attractive to the TV companies.

The 20 young Brits should develop and help the sport nationally.

Gets rid of the low average foreigners!

 

The devil will be in the detail (as Tsunami mentions)

What riders will qualify for these positions? (and how will it affect their positions with other clubs in other leagues)

Who goes where?

What changes will take place to the match format?

How will Matt Ford come out of it at an advantage?

 

Can we trust the powers that be to implement this fairly and appropriately????

 

 

THAT is the vital question.

 

Historically it doesn't look good.

[Tsunami]

Exactly Vince. Why put out a press release Sunday with only HALF the information. It's amateurish and therefore YOU should not blame people on here for getting facts wrong based on half a story on Sunday night.

 

BSPA should have had a full press release with all the new rules and facts Sunday or delayed announcement until one was ready.

 

Whichever way you look at it, the BSPA have taken half a good idea and messed it up or messed the announcement up.

 

If all the facts had been presented Sunday night then maybe people could have done that!

 

I agree. I don't have any doubt that the press release did not do anybody any favours. As to detail, until it was agreed and then consulted/agreed with fellow leagues at the AGM, there would have been no point in going into every detail. Therefore there would have been no detail to explain, and the discussions regarding the details now start for agreement at future meetings that are being planned. It has been a difficult end of season to start with, but it would have been totally folly of the EL, and a waste of precious time, to have touched all bases, and made all of the decisions on how to make it work, prior to proposing it it's sister leagues. Now starts the hard part of making it work, with strict rules and guidance to eliminate misinterpretation in the future. The initial rules may even have to be tinkered with as new situations are unearthed, but with decent understanding and cooperation, it can be achieved.

[Mr Blobby]

Someone suggested that the two leagues should get to more or less the same level of riders, not a bad idea in some ways, then have a sort of elite league with the best ten or twelve stadiums, then a lower league with the not so good stadiums. Take lakeside out of top league for example because the stadium is, well not a stadium, a bit like the football league, that you have to improve the ground and stadium to gain a league and win promotion.

 

This has to be one of the most mental posts i have ever seen on this forum!

 

You would put teams in certain leagues due to the fact of what their stadium looks like. that is just crazy. I know the BSPA comes up with some mad ideas but this has topped it!

[TwoMinuteWarning]

The idea of releasing such a vague press release (with regard to NL riders as EL reserves) was undoubtedly designed to stimulate discussion on the forum - a roaring success!

 

Then, when the dust has settled, they will discuss the fans fears and suggestions, pick the best ones and issue a final document. In this way they stand a lot more chance of coming up with a better system, and avoiding some of the pitfalls that they themselves had not foreseen.

 

And they can say that they have listened to and acted upon the opinions of the fans!

 

Very clever.