Speedway At The Crossroads

[AndyJ]

The vast majority of Speedway fans prefer to support a Team, ie where did the majority of Heathens fans go during our sabbatical ?, they stayed at home apart from the odd meeting. Yes it needs a squad system, Yes its time Speedway lived within its means ie PL Teams have to, so why not, so called Elite Teams. Definately a North & South, with a Grand Play Off Final at seasons end, but please, please lets see a reduction in admission costs, to reflect the standard of riders that we watch.Handicap racing should be confined to the 2nd half of meetings, or make it compulsory to have Development Teams in the 2nd half.

 

Several people still suggest a North/South split. Look at where the clubs are located. I can't see how such a split could be fairly accomplished.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Tkdandy

[greyhoundp]

There is an obvious North/South Split, the problem arises as to where the midlands split comes, the obvious scenario would be an East/West midlands split, either to go North or South, maybe alternating year on year, Oh and you missed out Dudley, CVS mentioned a North/South option at a forum less than 12 months ago.

[skthecat]

 

 

Several people still suggest a North/South split. Look at where the clubs are located. I can't see how such a split could be fairly accomplished.

 

 

I agree, a fair north / south split is out of the question. I think the only split can be as we have now, and thats based on clubs wanting::

 

League 1 (best riders available to ride in UK)

 

League 2 (Young guns on way up, genuine lesser ability riders and the riders who have peaked, and no longer competitive in League 1)

 

League 3 (Riders learning there trade having outgrown the junior scene [MDL etc] )

 

Cannot think of any other way with where clubs are spread out around the UK....

[greyhoundp]

The fact remains, how many clubs can afford to run, on the present structure, without SKY money ? Swindon, Birmingham lost money, probably most others also, rider (machinery)costs and transport costs are a big chunk of that expenditure, the north south split is an obvious cost cutting for Teams, Riders, and fans alike. Chris Van Stratten mentioned it, so it must be in promoters minds. For Teams who dont want the Proffesional structure there remains the NL.

[New Science]

The vast majority of Speedway fans prefer to support a Team, ie where did the majority of Heathens fans go during our sabbatical ?, they stayed at home apart from the odd meeting. Yes it needs a squad system, Yes its time Speedway lived within its means ie PL Teams have to, so why not, so called Elite Teams. Definately a North & South, with a Grand Play Off Final at seasons end, but please, please lets see a reduction in admission costs, to reflect the standard of riders that we watch.Handicap racing should be confined to the 2nd half of meetings, or make it compulsory to have Development Teams in the 2nd half.

What do you see as sensible ball park figure for admission for the league structure your advocating ?

[paulboy]

The fact remains, how many clubs can afford to run, on the present structure, without SKY money ? Swindon, Birmingham lost money, probably most others also, rider (machinery)costs and transport costs are a big chunk of that expenditure, the north south split is an obvious cost cutting for Teams, Riders, and fans alike. Chris Van Stratten mentioned it, so it must be in promoters minds. For Teams who dont want the Proffesional structure there remains the NL.

Certainly any Elite League club with attendances around the 1000 mark are going to struggle massively without Sky money. I don't know the ins and outs but, as far as I understand, Eastbourne (average attendance about 700) lost roughly £70,000, presumably after the Sky payout which has been quoted at £70,000 per club (I await correction!!) which means double that loss without Sky! I wouldn't imagine Eastbourne are one of the biggest payers either but, again, won't pretend to know the details.

 

I've done some very rough sums, using my own estimates, and reckon the points money for an average home meeting must come in at around £7000. 700 people through the gates at £15 per head, which they would not all pay, comes to £8750 after VAT, so there is very little spare to cover rain offs etc. And I haven't even factored in signing on fees, flights, stadium costs etc, although do appreciate some clubs have other income streams.

 

Anyone who thinks the Elite League can continue in its current format is living in cloud cuckoo land, I would think there are no more then a couple of clubs not losing money, although hopefully not all to the tune of £70k last season.

 

A North/South split doesn't seem possible to me, it just doesn't work geographically and a couple of Midlands/East Anglian clubs would have to go North which I would imagine would cause further arguments. Is one big league (i.e. including all willing EL & PL clubs) the answer? It didn't really work in 1996, although the economic climate was different then, and could only stand a chance now if the top clubs were willing to share the riders around. That's a lot to ask and I can remember several occasions where it hasn't happened in the past, 1984 springs to mind when Exeter and Newcastle both made the step up but struggled to field competitive sides.

 

Or maybe a couple of clubs step up to the EL, Sky stay on board and there is a meaningful fixture list although I don't really see how this is financially viable. Things need to be sorted soon, clubs can't start signing many riders for 2014 when they don't even know what the league structure will be.

 

Yes, speedway is at a crossroads, who has any confidence the powers that be will get it right this time?

[Tsunami]

Certainly any Elite League club with attendances around the 1000 mark are going to struggle massively without Sky money. I don't know the ins and outs but, as far as I understand, Eastbourne (average attendance about 700) lost roughly £70,000, presumably after the Sky payout which has been quoted at £70,000 per club (I await correction!!) which means double that loss without Sky! I wouldn't imagine Eastbourne are one of the biggest payers either but, again, won't pretend to know the details.

 

I've done some very rough sums, using my own estimates, and reckon the points money for an average home meeting must come in at around £7000. 700 people through the gates at £15 per head, which they would not all pay, comes to £8750 after VAT, so there is very little spare to cover rain offs etc. And I haven't even factored in signing on fees, flights, stadium costs etc, although do appreciate some clubs have other income streams.

 

Anyone who thinks the Elite League can continue in its current format is living in cloud cuckoo land, I would think there are no more then a couple of clubs not losing money, although hopefully not all to the tune of £70k last season.

 

A North/South split doesn't seem possible to me, it just doesn't work geographically and a couple of Midlands/East Anglian clubs would have to go North which I would imagine would cause further arguments. Is one big league (i.e. including all willing EL & PL clubs) the answer? It didn't really work in 1996, although the economic climate was different then, and could only stand a chance now if the top clubs were willing to share the riders around. That's a lot to ask and I can remember several occasions where it hasn't happened in the past, 1984 springs to mind when Exeter and Newcastle both made the step up but struggled to field competitive sides.

 

Or maybe a couple of clubs step up to the EL, Sky stay on board and there is a meaningful fixture list although I don't really see how this is financially viable. Things need to be sorted soon, clubs can't start signing many riders for 2014 when they don't even know what the league structure will be.

 

Yes, speedway is at a crossroads, who has any confidence the powers that be will get it right this time?

 

No club has only adults attending at say £15 per person. My own experience showed that the full price payers are about 63% of the total attendance, the rest being split between Students, concessions and children.

[greyhoundp]

What do you see as sensible ball park figure for admission for the league structure your advocating ?

I have NO idea whatsoever of rider costs, have a rough idea of stadium hire, between £750 & £1500 per meeting, an Elite league club were paying the higher figure 2 seasons ago for a stadium with good facilities, so based on that, the average would pan out somewhere between the 2 figures. I think a realistic figure to pay a rider (non GP) should be average, and i stress average £750 per meeting, Heat Leaders higher, 2nd strings, then reserves which equals out at £5250, here in the midlands, if you have a £500 per week job, then you are the exception, and i base my £750 on that, which equates to the equal of earning just 39k per year for 52 meetings, the equivelant of 52 weeks per year, bear in mind Heat leaders will earn more. Im not saying riders dont deserve more, but the facts are Speedway cant pay out, what it doesnt have. So with an average expense of £5250 + £1000 Stadia hire = £6250. 1000 @ £12 paying spectators of which 65% are full admission = £7800, and we will say 350 at concession rates of an average £5 = £1750, therefore the total income through the gate would be aprox £9550, this leaves a balance of £3,300, I realise there are other costs involved Track Staff, Turnstiles etc,etc, but Im pretty sure, most Teams could balance this out with income from sponsorship, Plus if they wanted to charge £1 to park a Car, that also would cover those costs, I have done the bare minimum of Admission fees, and rider/stadia costs. In my work, there is a rate of pay, i either accept that or i find another job, Speedway is NO different, if riders get off there arses, Im sure there are sponsorship deals out there, which would make Speedway more attractive financially.

So in answer to your question New Science, £12 pounds per meeting would be realistic, and Play Offs £15 max, and NO NL meeting should be above £10 admission, the best supported club in the NL charge £10, Kent are higher, i dont know why not justified, Cearnsport own the Stadium, I think Mildenhall are higher, again its hard to justify, on NL pay rates, which would total significantly less than £2000 per meeting.

 

I await the flack for actually putting in figures, which may or may not be pie in the sky, but to my way of thinking, Speedway in GB has to cut its cloth, to suit the figures through the gate.

[ch958]

yes Greyhound i got dogs abuse for saying something similar

 

people will just not face facts but the truth is even PL is expensive to run

 

700 spectators is semi pro sport - therefore pay has to be tailored accordingly

 

and don't give me shortage of riders if foreigners don't come - that'll never ever happen. In 68 and 69 about 15 new teams were staffed for the new BL2 with no problem at all

 

lets prune back the whole goddam thing and try and grow it again

[arthur cross]

Any of you trying to work out the costs for staging a meeting shouldn't forget you'll need around £1,000 just for the following 3 items - medical cover with 1 ambulance, insurance cover and the referee's fee.

 

If you want a 2nd ambulance to reduce the risk of lengthy delays after a nasty crash, add on another £200 per meeting.

[Tsunami]

Any of you trying to work out the costs for staging a meeting shouldn't forget you'll need around £1,000 just for the following 3 items - medical cover with 1 ambulance, insurance cover and the referee's fee.

 

If you want a 2nd ambulance to reduce the risk of lengthy delays after a nasty crash, add on another £200 per meeting.

 

Add in also the wages and travel costs of the riders for the away meeting, when the away team does not get part of the meeting income, except for a contribution for their riders points based on a low exchange rate agreed between all clubs.

[arthur cross]

Difficult to come up with an accurate figure for the average costs of running a team in the Elite League or the Premier League because every club will have different advantages and disadvantages (eg, only a few clubs benefit from food/drink sales, similarly only a few clubs benefit from deals with their stadium landlords or medical cover for a rebate if a meeting's rained off at the last minute).

 

But as a rough guide, to run a pair of meetings in the Premier League (one home and one away) costs between £8,000 & £11,000 while in the Elite League it's between &14,000 & £20,000

[SteveLyric2]

Isn't there an argument for having a 3xdivision league (ie EL and PL teams split into 3 divisions) North/Midlands/South - NL to remain separate.?

 

Each division has home/away twice, with the 3 respective division winners in a 3-way play-off. I haven't done the calculations - just reacting to all the 'anti-North/South structure'!

[AndyJ]

But as a rough guide, to run a pair of meetings in the Premier League (one home and one away) costs between £8,000 & £11,000 while in the Elite League it's between &14,000 & £20,000

 

Presumably that is based upon;

@ home: paying rent, insurance, medical, referee, own team's points money/travel costs in full and standard points money for opponents.

@ away: paying the variance between standard points money and contractually agreed rates for own team plus travel costs.

 

If 1000 full-fee paying adults attended the home match, @ £17 each, that only yields £13,600 in net gate receipts. Considering the proportion of matches with less than 1000 supporters, and Tsunami's suggestion that 37% of paying customers are concessions, it shows just how critical sponsorship and TV money are in making up the financial shortfall.

[skthecat]

Isn't watering down the quality on show the easier option, and the wrong way going forward?

 

Perhaps trying to improve the quality on show will improve the footfall, which in turn will raise the incoming revenue...?

 

If you have a shop and you need to increase your shoppers, selling less or inferior produce is not gonna work, is it..?

[pandorum]

Isn't watering down the quality on show the easier option, and the wrong way going forward?

 

Perhaps trying to improve the quality on show will improve the footfall, which in turn will raise the incoming revenue...?

 

If you have a shop and you need to increase your shoppers, selling less or inferior produce is not gonna work, is it..?

The quality of the league is best improved by having a decent racing surface and two teams that are comparable and competitive.

 

Top riders, engine tuners and a vanload of fancy equipment don't do a thing for the quality of racing unless everybody has them.

There is no quality on show when one team has 5 heat leaders and the other has one if they are lucky.

 

The basic idea of speedway is sound. The best way to improve the sport is regression.

The star rider idea has been an abject failure here in the UK.

Edited November 13, 2013 by pandorum

[Shale Shaker]

The quality of the league is best improved by having a decent racing surface and two teams that are comparable and competitive.

 

Top riders, engine tuners and a vanload of fancy equipment don't do a thing for the quality of racing unless everybody has them.

There is no quality on show when one team has 5 heat leaders and the other has one if they are lucky.

 

The basic idea of speedway is sound. The best way to improve the sport is regression.

The star rider idea has been an abject failure here in the UK.

 

I agree to a point, but if what you are saying is 100% true then the NL would be getting higher gates than the EL, wouldn't they??

[pandorum]

 

I agree to a point, but if what you are saying is 100% true then the NL would be getting higher gates than the EL, wouldn't they??

Fair point but it's never really THAT simple is it and what is ever 100% true.

Even the fact that the speed of light is a constant is not exactly true

 

We are speedway fans here and we all know that good racing comes from 4 guys who can ride a bike at the same level and have similar equipment.

Darcy is a great rider but having him in a race with three guys who can't live with him after the first bend does not mean good racing.

 

Track surface and riders who can compete with each other means good racing.

I have never seen NL racing but have seen plenty of junior stuff and it never really compared to the old NNL racing I used to enjoy.

But to be fair to the point you made there were differences in standard there as well.

 

The answer is never gonna be easy to find but it's a sad indictment when the people we need to be looking for it don't really seem to be capable.

[arthur cross]

 

Presumably that is based upon;

@ home: paying rent, insurance, medical, referee, own team's points money/travel costs in full and standard points money for opponents.

@ away: paying the variance between standard points money and contractually agreed rates for own team plus travel costs.

 

If 1000 full-fee paying adults attended the home match, @ £17 each, that only yields £13,600 in net gate receipts. Considering the proportion of matches with less than 1000 supporters, and Tsunami's suggestion that 37% of paying customers are concessions, it shows just how critical sponsorship and TV money are in making up the financial shortfall.

 

Don't forget that unless the weather's perfect all year, you also have to budget for the costs of a few rain-offs during the season ... as a rough guide, in a season of 20 home meetings the minimum you can expect is one early rain-off (eg, mid-morning) that shouldn't cost much at all, one rain-off before you've let the crowd in (eg, a couple of hours to go) from which you could save some of your costs and one last-minute rain-off that costs a hell of a lot ... once you get at least 5 rain-offs during a season, not only is your budget in tatters but there's the extra problem of then having to run meetings in damp conditions that produce lower crowds simply to fit everything in before any cut-off dates.

 

The general money in the Sky deal that's just ended (as opposed to the extra on-the-night bonuses to the teams appearing in the live meetings) was probably worth about £5,000 per home meeting to each club ... it's unlikely that amount would've been enough to cover the gap between Premier wages/expenses and Elite wages/expenses (more likely, covering about 70% of that gap).

 

Several winters ago in the Speedway Star (but without quoting specific amounts of money), Sheffield's Neil Machin did a lengthy piece explaining how he budgeted for a Premier League season by summing-up various percentages of total costs and total income for each aspect of running the team ... from what I remember, he aimed for a guideline of his wage-bill for the riders taking up no more than 55% of the total costs.

 

With a few good local heat-sponsors, Premier League clubs should be able to tick along with an average crowd of around 750 ... under the just-ended Sky-deal, Elite League clubs should have been able to do likewise with an average crowd just over 1,000 (so it's no wonder Eastbourne lost shedloads having admitted they've been averaging 770 !!).

Edited November 13, 2013 by arthur cross

[skthecat]

The quality of the league is best improved by having a decent racing surface and two teams that are comparable and competitive.

 

Top riders, engine tuners and a vanload of fancy equipment don't do a thing for the quality of racing unless everybody has them.

There is no quality on show when one team has 5 heat leaders and the other has one if they are lucky.

 

The basic idea of speedway is sound. The best way to improve the sport is regression.

The star rider idea has been an abject failure here in the UK.

Ok, you get 14 riders of a reasonably similar ability, similar equipment, then isn't that sterilizing the sport? You'll be left with a lot of not good enough riders and riders to good? Borefest 3-3 races.....

 

I do not think that over manipulation of team strengths is the way forward, its the wrong direction.

One of the biggest issues is track surfaces not being conducive to good racing.