What Can Be Done For Young British Riders.

[TMW]

Quite agree. Most other major countries seem to have some form of preference for their up and coming riders, but we being the UK seem to be the only only one that plays ball.

 

I am sure sport laws are different from employment laws anyway.

British riders don't need preferential treatment just a fair crack of the whip. Possibly an easy comparison to make but bringing Ryan Douglas halfway round the world instead of having Kerr which lets face it the only option Kerr had at the beginning of 2013 was a double up place at Leicester with Blackbird until Jason King decided he wasn't fit and Newcastle found themselves in a sticky situation.

Edited November 8, 2013 by TMW

[Boobs]

Surely all British speedway needs is for the PL to follow the NL in restricting the competition to UK passport-holders? Or maybe to ACU licence-holders?

 

Which, as it has been accepted for a couple of years, is presumably within the dictates of EU law?

[John Leslie]

Quite agree. Most other major countries seem to have some form of preference for their up and coming riders, but we being the UK seem to be the only only one that plays ball.

 

I am sure sport laws are different from employment laws anyway.

Speedway riders aren't employees, they're self-employed. They bring their own tools and do a specific contracted job.

 

The BSPA could chose to give priority to a self-employed British rider, just as I could chose to get my boiler fixed by the self-employed plumber who lives in the next street, rather than call in a plumber from miles away.

Edited November 8, 2013 by John Leslie

[Lord Antebellum]

Surely all British speedway needs is for the PL to follow the NL in restricting the competition to UK passport-holders? Or maybe to ACU licence-holders?

 

Which, as it has been accepted for a couple of years, is presumably within the dictates of EU law?

The best times I remember in following speedway were the 1980s, when the old National League (more or less the same as today's PL) restricted their teams to signing only British or Commonwealth riders. I would be delighted if these standards could return. Might the BSPA be able to restrict such a competition to holders of ACU and MA licences (plus any odds and sods from NZ, Canada or wherever)?

[skthecat]

post="2368321" timestamp="1383917129"]

 

 

Speedway riders aren't employees, they're self-employed. They bring their own tools and do a specific contracted job.

 

 

Your local plumber fixing your leak is not going to make "you" any money though, is he?

Completely different scenario.......

---------------------

 

 

The BSPA could chose to give priority to a self-employed British rider, just as I could chose to get my boiler fixed by the self-employed plumber who lives in the next street, rather than call in a plumber from miles away.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Never to old

[Vince]

post="2368321" timestamp="1383917129"]

 

Your local plumber fixing your leak is not going to make "you" any money though, is he?

Completely different scenario.......

---------------------

 

He is if you are calling in a local plumber to repair a leak that is preventing your business from running efficiently.

 

There are numerous exceptions to employment law, in the case we are talking of those concerning training and sport would cover anything so far discussed.

 

The whole self employment / asset system could be another story but if it suits everybody there won't be an issue.

[T.N.T.]

There is a simple equation to help British riders progress but sadly the Premier League bosses won't vote for it as it doesn't help their own needs regardless of the benefits to the sport in the future as Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

 

 

This is what SHOULD be in place .....

 

 

ALL foreign riders retain their starting assessed averages and this figure can never go down, only up.

 

 

This would mean ALL riders in the PL wth an average under 5.00 would be British riders only which in effect would mean most teams have British riders at reserve. With roughly 14 teams in the PL that would mean at least 28 of the 94 spaces are filled by Brits and that doesn't take into account the riders like Worrall, Lanham, Allen, Tully etc that are already there.

 

 

How many PL teams would decide to keep faith in an Argentinian or Hungarian averaging 3.22 when they are filling up 5.00 or 7.00 of the teams limit.

 

 

Should any team wish to operate a guest or r/r facility or even drop a foreign rider that is not meeting his assessed average, they must use his actual average and not his assessed average. This would stop them bringing in another foreign unknown to fill the place and could only replace them with what's left of the teams limit or another British rider promoted from the NL.

 

 

Also, riders moving up from the NL should do so on a third of their NL average with a minimum of 2.00, so a rider averaging 7.50 in the NL would come into a PL teamon an assessed 2.50 average. They would have tobe averaging more than 9 in the NL for their PL average to start over 3.00.

 

 

Will it happen ..... About as much chance as Holly Willabooby knocking on my door tonight dressed in the latest Ann Summers stockings !!

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Foreign riders maintaining at least their starting assessed average is a good idea and one that quite a number on here have advocated.

[Guest]

Quite agree. Most other major countries seem to have some form of preference for their up and coming riders, but we being the UK seem to be the only only one that plays ball.

 

I am sure sport laws are different from employment laws anyway.

 

I am certain this has been tested - Peter Schroeck (Germany) in the 1990s and his attempts to get a place in British speedway? Employment of sportsmen was then proven to be the same as the general EU Employment law.

That's also a reason why riders from Commonwealth countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa face problems when trying to get places in the UK teams. They face various EU guidelines before being allowed to ride (or technically to work) in the UK.

For all that, I agree the National League is allowed (??) to exclude EU and Commonwealth riders, so perhaps there is some leeway that Elite League and Premier League are not utilising?

Edited November 9, 2013 by Guest

[Boobs]

Doubling up/down should be for British passport holders only except in very special circumstances such as Charlie Gjedde was making a comback from serious injury.Reason under the UK only rule allowing CG to DU/DD is he has been a loyal servant to the sport over here.

Not the best example, given Gjedde's 'loyal service' to the sport at Berwick!

 

I am certain this has been tested - Peter Schroeck (Germany) in the 1990s and his attempts to get a place in British speedway? Employment of sportsmen was then proven to be the same as the general EU Employment law.

It wasn't tested in law. Mr Russell threatened to go to litigation if the NL didn't let him bring Herr Shroeck into his Rye House team, and the other promoters (who knew the rider was absolutely useless, as he proved in every race he started) shrugged their shoulders and chose not to contest the threatened lawsuit, as they knew the Rockets were being weakened, not strengthened, by the move.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Boobs

[Daniel Smith]

I believe there is a major misconception when it comes to what international riders receive from clubs. There are some extreme examples but in the main most riders from abroad still have to find their own way.

 

It's only the young potential superstars that gets sponsors & clubs throwing stuff at them but that about 2 out of 10. That is no different to potential young British superstars. Tai Woffinden is one example and now potentially Robert Lambert but they still had to work their bloody asses off.

 

You tend to find also that a lots of the sponsorship logos on foreign riders equipment are from abroad anyway and the majority buy their own gear. You regularly hear of foreign riders asking for and getting paid LESS than Brits. Something else that needs clearing up is this nonsense that flights are paid for. Again, there are some extremes but nearly all foreign riders have to pay and organise their own travel expense. It's been that way since the mid to late 90's. The only travel expenses covered are those from base to away track. Whether that's the airport, UK home etc. No different to how the British rider's are treated.

 

Some people don't like Twitter but I can tell you, it's a massive education in attitude differences between Brits & our foreign counterparts. While the Brits like to pee about having great nights out getting off their face chasing birds about the foreign guys are all about advertising themselves, searching sponsorship, searching out clubs, training hard, practising hard, already building equipment for next year etc etc.

 

Truth hurts but it's absolutely correct what someone has put on here earlier. Brits expect it to be handed on a plate and go out and p!ss it up.

 

Here's my opinion. Get off ya lazy ass and go get it done. The hardest working and the best always find a way to the top.

 

IMO the international riders have it tougher but they work harder to establish them selves.

Edited November 9, 2013 by screamer

[foamfence]

I believe there is a major misconception when it comes to what international riders receive from clubs. There are some extreme examples but in the main most riders from abroad still have to find their own way.

 

It's only the young potential superstars that gets sponsors & clubs throwing stuff at them but that about 2 out of 10. That is no different to potential young British superstars. Tai Woffinden is one example and now potentially Robert Lambert but they still had to work their bloody asses off.

 

You tend to find also that a lots of the sponsorship logos on foreign riders equipment are from abroad anyway and the majority buy their own gear. You regularly hear of foreign riders asking for and getting paid LESS than Brits. Something else that needs clearing up is this nonsense that flights are paid for. Again, there are some extremes but nearly all foreign riders have to pay and organise their own travel expense. It's been that way since the mid to late 90's. The only travel expenses covered are those from base to away track. Whether that's the airport, UK home etc. No different to how the British rider's are treated.

 

Some people don't like Twitter but I can tell you, it's a massive education in attitude differences between Brits & our foreign counterparts. While the Brits like to pee about having great nights out getting off their face chasing birds about the foreign guys are all about advertising themselves, searching sponsorship, searching out clubs, training hard, practising hard, already building equipment for next year etc etc.

 

Truth hurts but it's absolutely correct what someone has put on here earlier. Brits expect it to be handed on a plate and go out and p!ss it up.

 

Here's my opinion. Get off ya lazy ass and go get it done. The hardest working and the best always find a way to the top.

 

IMO the international riders have it tougher but they work harder to establish them selves.

That's a bit of a generalisation and some people just have more talent and flair for riding than others, irrespective of how much effort they put in.

[Daniel Smith]

That's a bit of a generalisation and some people just have more talent and flair for riding than others, irrespective of how much effort they put in.

Is more accurate than the "generalisation" of foreign rider's that people have that is way way of the mark.

 

What I do agree with though, also mentioned earlier is that foreign riders on a lower average than they were assessed on shouldn't be allowed but is that harsh on those assessed on 7+ averages???

 

Maybe capping their lowest average to 5.00 in both league would be more accurate. If Brits require a helping hand that has to be the way.

 

The Swedes have got it right for next season with Phil Morris Tweeting that Svemo have given all Swedish under 21's a2 point starting average and all Swedes under 25 a 25% average reduction.

 

Will the BSPA grow some balls or continue to hide being the European Law bullsheet

[TMW]

I believe there is a major misconception when it comes to what international riders receive from clubs. There are some extreme examples but in the main most riders from abroad still have to find their own way.

 

It's only the young potential superstars that gets sponsors & clubs throwing stuff at them but that about 2 out of 10. That is no different to potential young British superstars. Tai Woffinden is one example and now potentially Robert Lambert but they still had to work their bloody asses off.

 

You tend to find also that a lots of the sponsorship logos on foreign riders equipment are from abroad anyway and the majority buy their own gear. You regularly hear of foreign riders asking for and getting paid LESS than Brits. Something else that needs clearing up is this nonsense that flights are paid for. Again, there are some extremes but nearly all foreign riders have to pay and organise their own travel expense. It's been that way since the mid to late 90's. The only travel expenses covered are those from base to away track. Whether that's the airport, UK home etc. No different to how the British rider's are treated.

 

Some people don't like Twitter but I can tell you, it's a massive education in attitude differences between Brits & our foreign counterparts. While the Brits like to pee about having great nights out getting off their face chasing birds about the foreign guys are all about advertising themselves, searching sponsorship, searching out clubs, training hard, practising hard, already building equipment for next year etc etc.

 

Truth hurts but it's absolutely correct what someone has put on here earlier. Brits expect it to be handed on a plate and go out and p!ss it up.

 

Here's my opinion. Get off ya lazy ass and go get it done. The hardest working and the best always find a way to the top.

 

IMO the international riders have it tougher but they work harder to establish them selves.

I think you need to get out to the training tracks a bit more spend less time on twitter.

[Vince]

I believe there is a major misconception when it comes to what international riders receive from clubs. There are some extreme examples but in the main most riders from abroad still have to find their own way.

 

It's only the young potential superstars that gets sponsors & clubs throwing stuff at them but that about 2 out of 10. That is no different to potential young British superstars. Tai Woffinden is one example and now potentially Robert Lambert but they still had to work their bloody asses off.

 

You tend to find also that a lots of the sponsorship logos on foreign riders equipment are from abroad anyway and the majority buy their own gear. You regularly hear of foreign riders asking for and getting paid LESS than Brits. Something else that needs clearing up is this nonsense that flights are paid for. Again, there are some extremes but nearly all foreign riders have to pay and organise their own travel expense. It's been that way since the mid to late 90's. The only travel expenses covered are those from base to away track. Whether that's the airport, UK home etc. No different to how the British rider's are treated.

 

Some people don't like Twitter but I can tell you, it's a massive education in attitude differences between Brits & our foreign counterparts. While the Brits like to pee about having great nights out getting off their face chasing birds about the foreign guys are all about advertising themselves, searching sponsorship, searching out clubs, training hard, practising hard, already building equipment for next year etc etc.

 

Truth hurts but it's absolutely correct what someone has put on here earlier. Brits expect it to be handed on a plate and go out and p!ss it up.

 

Here's my opinion. Get off ya lazy ass and go get it done. The hardest working and the best always find a way to the top.

 

IMO the international riders have it tougher but they work harder to establish them selves.

Just how do foreign lads on a 5 or 6. point PL average survive if they get paid less than British riders and only get the same travel expenses?

 

For sure there are plenty of British lads out partying instead of dedicating themselves to Speedway, there are also plenty of foreign lads doing the same thing, including some that ride over here. Equally there are riders of all nationalities, including Brits, who work very hard to get as far as possible in the sport.

[john birch]

STOP them doubling up for not just the sake of the sport but theirs too. Got told the other night that one Polish match was worth as much as five Premier League meetings. If this is the case just who the hell is advising the likes of Craig Cook ? On a more positive note, a compulsory U21 Brit in each PL team and a total of three UK born in each side.

Edited November 15, 2013 by tiberon

[kiwi]

what are the british riders doing in the off season to get ahead of their rivals?

[foamfence]

what are the british riders doing in the off season to get ahead of their rivals?

Most of the ones that I know, will be working in regular jobs to supplement their income and have something to invest in new equipment, including some guys of national team status.

[Boobs]

what are the british riders doing in the off season to get ahead of their rivals?

Kyle Newman is in Australia, riding and learning. I believe Andrew Tully is also in Oz, but not sure if he is racing there.

[Great Central]

I believe there is a major misconception when it comes to what international riders receive from clubs. There are some extreme examples but in the main most riders from abroad still have to find their own way.

 

Some people don't like Twitter but I can tell you, it's a massive education in attitude differences between Brits & our foreign counterparts. While the Brits like to pee about having great nights out getting off their face chasing birds about the foreign guys are all about advertising themselves, searching sponsorship, searching out clubs, training hard, practising hard, already building equipment for next year etc etc.

 

 

Massive generalisation on your behalf and I don't know where you get your information about foreign riders but it is not my experience.

As for going out advertsing themselves, chasing sponsorship etc, the Swedish clubs picked their riders in October and their fixtures were settled before our season finished. With exceptions, most British riders won't know who they will be riding for until after the AGM this weekend and for the NL riders, the vast majority won't know until well into the New Year. How can you chase sponsorship in those circumstances?? The AGM's should be held at the end of September. There wasn't much else going on.

As for getting out training, along with many other British youngsters, my son was at Leicester today trying out different equipment and settings in order to build on his recent progress and tomorrow morning (0600)he is at work trying to earn money to stay in the sport he loves. He doesn't expect anything on a plate and that goes for the guys he races with.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Great Central