Tactical Substitutes - Thinking 'out Of The Box'!

[The White Knight]

 

Thinking like that you might just as well stop riders making changes to their bike after their first ride, I agree of dropping the Double points ride that is a terrible rule But gate positions is surely a different matter, after all a team wins a toss to choose gate positions to start a meeting, should that be abandoned as a form of fiddling.

 

 

No, it should not be abandoned. You have to decide which Team takes Gate One and Three/Two and Four in order to start the Meeting. After THAT there should be no Fiddling to try to contrive closer Results. Believe me - it IS Fiddling whether you like it or not.

[Team Man]

It's very difficult to decide what is fiddling and what is team management then, You would rather see a rider take his allotted rides all night and not have an in form reserve take his place then, because that is a team manager fiddling the rides to suit.

[Mike.Butler]

The big advantage for me the old Tac sub rule had was that there wasn't the same incentive to 'throw' a race in order to get 6 pts behind as there is now to get 10 pts behind, simply because you were potentially forfeiting 2pts to gain 4, whereas now you forfeit 2 to potentially gain 7...it's absolute crap and brings the sport into disrepute in my view.. I am sick and tired of the promoters ignoring this blatant loophole. How many times do they have to be told us fans don't want it!? i'm close to giving up tbh...the world cup being the biggest fiasco which has meant i refuse to watch them any longer..so a casual armchair fan is pandered to in preference to us who keep the sport (just) above water...FOR PETE'S SAKE _ AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Edited November 1, 2013 by Mike.Butler

[waiheke1]

No in the old rule u could throw two to gain eight. now u could throw two to gain three. how many times does this need explaining?

[penchev]

Perhaps use the old tac sub rule for the k.o cup matches?

[Mike.Butler]

eh? old TS: the score is 25-29, instead of getting a 3-3 team deliberately lose 2-4, so score becomes 27-33, a 5-1 brings it back to 32-34, compared to a 3-3 (28-32) followed by a 3-3 (31-35) how is that gaining 8? Is it me????

[waiheke1]

Because you could replace two rubbish riders with two top riders turning a likely 1-5 into a 5-1.

care to explain how u think the new double point rules can give a 7 point gain?

[Mike.Butler]

i can't sorry, best i can do is: the score is 21-26 and losing team have had a rider excluded, their 2nd rider then has an 'engine failure"., score goes to 21-31...forfeiting one point to gain 3 with a potential 8-1 instead of a 5-1. you're right and i'm wrong.

I apologise: However, for some reason i perceive it is more common-place now and i can only think that it is because when only 4 pts behind in first example, the opportunity exists to pull level with a single maximum, and a 6 pt deficit is retrievable + a TS could be broiught in to any heat so a 6 pt defecit may come along in another eat or so.., whereas when 8 (10) behind a managers thinking is 'we've lost this match' - whats the best opportunity to salvage a losing bonus point, i know- our top rider is in next heat? - therefore can't afford to miss the opportunity since he's not out again till after heat 12..this make sense? but i'm probably wrong about that too... :blush:

Edited November 1, 2013 by Mike.Butler

[waiheke1]

No apology needed.

I don't think in league speedway manipulation of the tac rules is more common than in the past, certainly the modest net maximum one point gain (in some exceptional circumstances it could two) makes it risky and rarely worthwhile.

The swc is a different story all together, as the rules mean u can throw one point to potentially gain six. and of course tac subs were never allowed in thexold world team cup ( reserves could be used, but that wasn't dependent on being behind).

[pandorum]

The double point rule is not really a tactical rule in the way the old tac sub rule was.

Under the old system you could throw in your best immediately after going 6 points down.

Now you have to wait to be 10 down and hope that you have someone in the next heat capable of offering a decent punt at scoring double points.

 

A team like Poole can take advantage as they have plenty of heat leaders but a team at the bottom would struggle and may have to wait a heat or two for a decent candidate to use it by which time they are further behind and the so called tactical rule is useless to them.

 

The old rule did not mean that you would immediately get back in the match but at least it made things interesting.

With minimum numbers of rides for the lesser members of a team it does actually involve some tactical thinking from managers whereas the current rule consists mainly of a panic measure of throwing someone in as a 'tactical' in the hope they might get a win or second.

[skthecat]

First of all, let me state that I dislike the tactical rule, but it would seem that the powers that be like it and wish to retain it. I would much prefer a return to the bonus league point for an aggregate win (home and away). It is claimed that the tactical rule helps keep meetings going - the aggregate rule also used to keep them going! The homepageoteam in the first leg would go hell for leather to get as big an advantage as possible and then defend it, if they couldn't win, away from home.

 

But if we must have a tactical rule, why not make it a bit more interesting, or tactical?

 

How about, if a team is 10 points down at any time before heat 11, they can replace a rider with a rider wearing black and white who can score double points provided he finishes in front of an opponent. But if the manager of the losing team does nominate a tactical rider then he does so knowing that the other team manager can also nominate a double point rider in a subsequent race (if the first is in heat 11 then the other must be in heat 12 so no tacticals in the last 3 races). In this way a team manager will have to weigh up the pros and cons of using a "tactical" knowing that the other team could hit back straight away. In this way points scored on the race track count and successful teams aren't obviously penalised - the best team wins on the night.

 

But obviously, any system that needs to resort to such complications would alienate new fans, so let's just scrap the tactical rule completely, and if we can't, then for God's sake, let's drop it from straight home and away challenges like the play offs - those enlightened folk in the Premier League don't have the tactical rule in two legged play off matches, so why do we?

 

And while I'm on my soap box, how many of us are frustrated by "gardening" and other forms of time wasting at the tapes? Why not make it mandatory that the senior start marshall be in attendance alongside the referee and the clerk of the course at the riders' briefing before each meeting. In that way it could be pointed out that any delays will be penalised in the form of fines and we might find that riders take a bit more notice of the start marshall and sharpen up their work.

 

Rant over; darkened room beckons.

..........................With reference to rider gardening..........................

 

Years ago at Leicesters Blackbird Rd Track

 

Grading took place after every heat??? Also, the grading impliment was raised as the tractor passed over the start gate, this in effect meant the starting area was untouched once the meeting started...... This meant that all ruts that manifested during the meeting were ALL VISIBLE to the riders which meant they didnt have to UNCOVER decent bits of the starting area, I.E no hidden ruts, perhaps that would speed up races starting?????

 

And, meetings were completed in good time, with tractor grading in between each heat, not after 4, 8 & 14 or when the home team decided..... How did that come about in the first place anyway???

[The White Knight]

It's very difficult to decide what is fiddling and what is team management then, You would rather see a rider take his allotted rides all night and not have an in form reserve take his place then, because that is a team manager fiddling the rides to suit.

 

 

NO!!

 

I would rather see the Heat Leaders Second Strings take their allotted Rides and if one of those were injured or off form the could be replaced by a Reserve. I thought that is what the word 'Reserve' meant. No Fiddling with Scores, Gate Positions, Double Points etc. Reserves used as replacements as and when required (doesn't matter how far ahead or behind the opposition are). THEN the Team Manager really DOES have to Manage his Team.

 

We need to get rid of the Fiddling and the Time Wasting in Speedway.

[weatherwatcher]

I don't like the B/W tactical ride. If a team is 10 points ahead then so be it, they have raced to earn those points, to then give the team behind a chance to double up their points seams a silly idea to me

. Let them race on and lets see the outcome. Or is it the the team that are behind then go on to win are the best team on the night. It makes the whole thing a farce.

Let the winner of the races be the one that has the score that they went out and earned, not handed to them on a plate by a TC.

Think it would make some big changes to the league tables at the end of the year if they raced for what was actually on the true points they won not decided by the outcome of TC's.

But that is just my idea. I don't like them full stop.!!!