Doubling Up - Should It Be Allowed?

[SCB]

Disgrace in 2009 when Barker wasn't allowed to double up in my opinion. As much as Dave Tattum came across as a moron. I actually agreed with him 100%. Yes rules are rules and Ben was 0.4 over but even still...

In fact it was 0.04 of a point! Or 1 race point over a whole a season.

[StevePark]

I don't attend Elite League Meetings - but it does seem to me that there is far too much Doubling Up. I'm not sure how you solve the problem though - as has been pointed out there are not enough Riders around to furnish the Elite League.

 

My only solution would be to merge both Leagues and if the likes of Tai Woofinden, Chris Harris et al didn't like it, personally, I would regretfully say - Thank You and goodbye. :sad:

 

The continuation of the Sport is more important than individuals.

This hints that isn't going to happen (thankfully):- http://www.speedwaygb.co/news.php?extend.23131

[orion]

Same old boring talk about cutting costs ..you keep doing that the crowds keep dropping never to return not sure why people think people are going to turn up to watch nl riders rather than top liners the bottom line is they won't ..we need idea's that bring crowds back rather than away .

[Badge]

This hints that isn't going to happen (thankfully):- http://www.speedwayg...hp?extend.23131

lol as long as the left hand knows what the right is doing of course

[The White Knight]

Same old boring talk about cutting costs ..you keep doing that the crowds keep dropping never to return not sure why people think people are going to turn up to watch nl riders rather than top liners the bottom line is they won't ..we need idea's that bring crowds back rather than away .

 

It might be boring, it might also be necessary. :sad:

 

As regards Crowds - they are dropping anyway. :sad:

 

Totally agree with you about ideas. Have you got any?

[orion]

 

 

It might be boring, it might also be necessary. :sad:

 

As regards Crowds - they are dropping anyway. :sad:

 

Totally agree with you about ideas. Have you got any?

Yea hope for a cold winter

[The White Knight]

Yea hope for a cold winter

 

It might kill some of us 'oldies' off'.

Edited October 20, 2013 by The White Knight

[rolypolygoly]

It might kill some of us 'oldies off'.

Nah the hat you wear will keep you going

[Fromafar]

Disgrace in 2009 when Barker wasn't allowed to double up in my opinion. As much as Dave Tattum came across as a moron. I actually agreed with him 100%. Yes rules are rules and Ben was 0.4 over but even still...

 

Farcial in my opinion

 

Admittedly Dyer's scores slackened off but we've heard the odd rumour odd about Dyer then again scoring paid 16-17 points and returning doesn't sound right. Poor with his money or just "another" speedway myth.

Dyer 8pt average and not making money out of Speedway like you say speedway myths are very common,tracks losing 30,-40 grand a year and still running .Accountants and engine tuners seem be the only ones not complaining.!!

[DiamondsRock]

Impractical - do you think Harris, Woffinden etc. would ride for the Pay Scales that would need to be introduced in order to put the Sport in this Country on a sound Financial footing. No they would not, therefore you would not have and Woffinden riding against National League Riders. British Speedway at present CANNOT AFFORD the luxury of these Riders in their Teams - not unless they take a significant Pay Cut.

 

You seem to be arguing from the standpoint that things can go on as they are - put simply, if Speedway does not reduce it's Costs/Expenses it will surely go to the wall.

 

Personally, I would rather watch Teams with two National League Riders at Reserve than for that to happen. The plus is that in a very few years British Speedway will benefit from the fact that these youngsters have now become experienced Rider. Once you start introducing National League Riders on a regular basis, those Riders must improve - or they are simply not good enough and will be replaced by others..

 

I commented at least two years ago on this Forum, that Speedway would suffer because of the Recession - well, we are in it now. Speedway Promoters have to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

If I had the answers - I would be a Promoter. I am not. Answers by those at the Top need to be found though - VERY SOON!!!

 

Not true, I'm arguing from the point of improving the product on display and sorting the costs out.

 

If you reduce the amount of riders that each team requires, you end up creating a surplus - so you can start to be more demanding in terms of what you're willing to pay each rider in your side. It reduces the ability of a rider to hold a club to ransom on wages if their average fits what a side needs, and if they don't want to ride for what's on offer - tough!

 

Reducing the team sizes can also reduce the need for guests and r/r, something which I believe you have commented on in the past. If you reduce team sizes to be based on the amount of available riders, then you don't need doubling up - so we remove the problem of when one rider chooses to ride for one club over the other.

 

I'd also do away with this pointless "league and half" that the EL currently runs. If the losses are as big as what the clubs are claiming, then I don't see why they go to the expense of running an extra "half league" campaign. Just do one, over the summer months, and that's it done with. Ditch the pointless matches in the PL - league cup is often cited as this.

 

So, I've now reduced the need for guests, and done away with the pointless fixtures - there's the cost cutting done, and reduced the team sizes to give the promoters more bargaining power at the contract table.

 

For your NL suggestion, don't kid yourself that it's booming with talent that can be easily scooped up for the club reserves. In fact, having a quick skim through the NL team declarations, I see that a good number of them already ride in the PL, and a good number have previously failed at this level. About 15 of them, I don't recall seeing in the PL before. Hardly enough for one big league.

 

Then there's the problem with the product already - do you want to reduce the quality further by introducing these riders? Put simply, I don't think that there's enough of them in there to replace the amount of riders that would be lost through wage cuts alone - so you'd then end up with doubling up from the NL to the "One big league"... which is one of the thing's we're trying to avoid.

 

Thinking that reducing squad size would be the best option - can't see simply saying "we'll replace you with a NL rider" having much benefit at all - either in terms of reducing the amount of riders that we have to pay for from abroad, or for improving the product quality in general. It also makes the product see "fresher" and may entice some fans back to see what it's like.

[The White Knight]

Not true, I'm arguing from the point of improving the product on display and sorting the costs out.

 

If you reduce the amount of riders that each team requires, you end up creating a surplus - so you can start to be more demanding in terms of what you're willing to pay each rider in your side. It reduces the ability of a rider to hold a club to ransom on wages if their average fits what a side needs, and if they don't want to ride for what's on offer - tough!

 

Reducing the team sizes can also reduce the need for guests and r/r, something which I believe you have commented on in the past. If you reduce team sizes to be based on the amount of available riders, then you don't need doubling up - so we remove the problem of when one rider chooses to ride for one club over the other.

 

I'd also do away with this pointless "league and half" that the EL currently runs. If the losses are as big as what the clubs are claiming, then I don't see why they go to the expense of running an extra "half league" campaign. Just do one, over the summer months, and that's it done with. Ditch the pointless matches in the PL - league cup is often cited as this.

 

So, I've now reduced the need for guests, and done away with the pointless fixtures - there's the cost cutting done, and reduced the team sizes to give the promoters more bargaining power at the contract table.

 

For your NL suggestion, don't kid yourself that it's booming with talent that can be easily scooped up for the club reserves. In fact, having a quick skim through the NL team declarations, I see that a good number of them already ride in the PL, and a good number have previously failed at this level. About 15 of them, I don't recall seeing in the PL before. Hardly enough for one big league.

 

Then there's the problem with the product already - do you want to reduce the quality further by introducing these riders? Put simply, I don't think that there's enough of them in there to replace the amount of riders that would be lost through wage cuts alone - so you'd then end up with doubling up from the NL to the "One big league"... which is one of the thing's we're trying to avoid.

 

Thinking that reducing squad size would be the best option - can't see simply saying "we'll replace you with a NL rider" having much benefit at all - either in terms of reducing the amount of riders that we have to pay for from abroad, or for improving the product quality in general. It also makes the product see "fresher" and may entice some fans back to see what it's like.

 

Riders would STILL (sadly) get injured and R/R would still need to be used. I do take your point about Doubling Up though.

 

I was mainly commenting on National League Riders at Reserve. Their own Race (Heat 2) it could be done.

[Daniel Smith]

Doubling up is an absolute must for the riders and the Elite League. Admittedly it is less important for the Premier League.

 

For D/U to work to it's maximum potential it's an absolute must that the Elite League move to 2 race nights a week. Preferably Monday and Wednesday as none of the PL side's race those nights.

 

This then removes the 'priority' rule, also removes a lot of 'guests and R/R' for the EL and would genuinely be better for British Speedway as a whole.

 

The next step to double up is remove the maximum EL conversion. Instead of 7.2 being the maximum EL double up, I'd make it open to any rider with the same or above riders get the 12.00 PL average.

 

Then on from that, any rider's taking up the D/U facility can not ride in any other European 'Elite League'. If they wish to take up an 'Elite' position then they have to give up a position for their British club.

 

So, without restricting European trade laws I think this will make home grown Brits more attractive to both EL and PL promoters as European riders won't want to give up their top league positions just to ride over here.

[Robinh88]

Dyer 8pt average and not making money out of Speedway like you say speedway myths are very common,tracks losing 30,-40 grand a year and still running .Accountants and engine tuners seem be the only ones not complaining.!!

I don't know what he was on at Redcar but it certainly makes you wonder. Maybe preparing bikes for the EL took its toll, maybe Dyer realised life at the top level wasnt all fun and frolics. That being said he made great strides in 2013. The performances I saw from him at Berwick were very impressive, bikes looked very quick. A Berwick fan commented to me maybe he had rode himself out of a team place for 2014. Good rider maybe not No1 standard but a Heat leader.Remember when Wilkinson had has golden spell in the PL a few years ago with Scunthorpe, banging the points in left right and Charlie. While doing this he was appearing for Ippo in the EL and not scoring many points and that was what was losing him money.It's a shame this is happening to the lads who ride in this country. Speedway used to be a living for these blokes at one point. Yet you get foreign blokes who can afford to sign for our clubs and miss meetings if and when suited. While there is the argument the UK should have a single race night. I like the fact we have had a spread of meetings throughout the week I think it makes us unique. Thankfully we didnt cave into that to suit into the foriegn riders schedules...

[Brian Buck]

I have never been in favour of riders being allowed to ride for more than one team and cannot see that any benefit at all has come from doing so. All it has done is deprive about 30 riders of a team place.

 

If it has to continue (and I suppose it will now that promoters have created a situation that means it cannot be done without) then I suggest that Elite League clubs should always have priority. That way, the rule would regulate itself since only the genuinely ambitious riders would want to double-up if they were deprived of the opportunity of always taking the easier option of riding for their lower league club.

 

I have long believed that there is a need to change the race format so that no reserve could ride 7 times in a 15 heat match and by doing so, have such a massive influence in the result as we have seen so often. The old 16 heat format of 3 pairs and one reserve which was used in the 1950's has some merit. The reserve was only programmed to take 2 rides with the remaining members of the team taking 5, but could also be used another 3 times to replace an off-form colleague. (ie he couldn't have more rides than any other team member). If this format were re-introduced, it would be possible to bring in a "young British rider only" as the reserve since with him only having to take two rides his impact on results would usually be minimal and promoters would be more willing to persevere with him rather than keep chopping and changing for shot term gain.

 

I would definitely do away with the nominated heat too. This always gives an unfair advantage to the "top heavy" teams and virtually gives them a "free" 5-1!

[TheScotsman]

Totally agree about removing the reserve's eligibility for 7 rides - totally skews matches when a team has a really strong/improving reserve (e.g. Lewis Kerr to name only one) and gives him 7 outings every match.

 

First thoughts are that you are also correct about the nominated heat 15 advantage, but I think I would like to see some stats showing the results since it was introduced and whether it really did give top heavy teams an advantage compared to well balanced ones. Somerset would seem to prove your point in the PL but Brum were top of the EL table with a well balanced team so I'm not sure about that one.

 

I think doubling up/down has got a bit out of control and I'm not sure how that can be reversed. However in terms of priority, to me it's simple - if one of the teams has the rider on their retained list (I hate the word asset!!) then they get priority. If the rider is on loan from a third team then either the PL or the EL team pays the primary loan fee and gets first call.

[ruffdiamond]

Riders would STILL (sadly) get injured and R/R would still need to be used. I do take your point about Doubling Up though.

 

I was mainly commenting on National League Riders at Reserve. Their own Race (Heat 2) it could be done.

agree with you about riders getting injured and that, and with a smaller team, surely it will be even harder to cover and then we'd end up with more guests ,,,

I'm sure that with even less riders on show, more people would want to come, not ,,,

and if you have NL riders at reserve, won't they infact, be PL riders ???

Oh,,, n btw,,, I think 'doubling up' should be allowed, if that's what it says in the rules,,,

Edited October 21, 2013 by ruffdiamond

[Django]

Some interesting views from Craig Cook on Twitter, I'm inclined to agree

 

1. Craig Cook ‏@the_cookstar10m

   Just reading the BSF thread on doubling up. Some of the opinions on there are ridiculous. If I couldn't double up I wouldn't be riding.....

   Expand
2. Craig Cook ‏@the_cookstar5m

   ... as I couldn't afford it. I will be aiming to double up again in 2014. I also think doubling up should be aloud for all British riders...

   Expand
3. Craig Cook ‏@the_cookstar3m

   ... The likes of @DannyKingRacing who has ridden very few meetings in 2013 could benefit from this. About time GB looks after the Brits ✌️

[wjm]

 

I have never been in favour of riders being allowed to ride for more than one team and cannot see that any benefit at all has come from doing so. All it has done is deprive about 30 riders of a team place.

 

If it has to continue (and I suppose it will now that promoters have created a situation that means it cannot be done without) then I suggest that Elite League clubs should always have priority. That way, the rule would regulate itself since only the genuinely ambitious riders would want to double-up if they were deprived of the opportunity of always taking the easier option of riding for their lower league club.

 

I have long believed that there is a need to change the race format so that no reserve could ride 7 times in a 15 heat match and by doing so, have such a massive influence in the result as we have seen so often. The old 16 heat format of 3 pairs and one reserve which was used in the 1950's has some merit. The reserve was only programmed to take 2 rides with the remaining members of the team taking 5, but could also be used another 3 times to replace an off-form colleague. (ie he couldn't have more rides than any other team member). If this format were re-introduced, it would be possible to bring in a "young British rider only" as the reserve since with him only having to take two rides his impact on results would usually be minimal and promoters would be more willing to persevere with him rather than keep chopping and changing for shot term gain.

 

I would definitely do away with the nominated heat too. This always gives an unfair advantage to the "top heavy" teams and virtually gives them a "free" 5-1!

Edited October 23, 2013 by wjm

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Should be British based riders if not British riders only. Also think any Brit should be allowed regardless of average.

3 per team is too many though and it is this part that has caused most problems IMO.

[emilali]

 

Some interesting views from Craig Cook on Twitter, I'm inclined to agree

 

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  45]

  Craig Cook ‏@the_cookstar10m

  Just reading the BSF thread on doubling up. Some of the opinions on there are ridiculous. If I couldn't double up I wouldn't be riding.....

   

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  45]

  Craig Cook ‏@the_cookstar5m

  ... as I couldn't afford it. I will be aiming to double up again in 2014. I also think doubling up should be aloud for all British riders...

   

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  45]

  Craig Cook ‏@the_cookstar3m

  ... The likes of @DannyKingRacing who has ridden very few meetings in 2013 could benefit from this. About time GB looks after the Brits ✌️

Total lack of ambition from a bloke who 'says' he wants to reach the top. If he really wants to make it in the sport he needs to get himself out to Poland and Sweden and improve out there and if he does he can make money. Really what is the point career wise in him banging in max after max for Edinburgh against inferior riders?