Rebels 2014

[idh]

You better go have 7 or 8 burgers, a ham sandwich and a lay down after that lot Mr T or should I say Womble 53

only 7 or 8 Swede. Is he on a diet

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Good research Womble.

 

I will play devils advocate as a pendaintic border agency worker deciding whether to stamp the Doyle visa.

 

Point 1 - The supplementary work must be at the same level or on the shortage occupation list. DECLINE

 

Point 3 - The additional hours must be outside the normal working hours of the original sponsorship. DECLINE

[Arson fire]

Is he Established at the highest level?? You could argue Doyle is but the others wouldn't be and maybe him coming and going out of the country which requires a further/ addition to his visa may be a stumbling block??

[Cliffeboy]

The UK Border Agency conditions for a T5 visa do not require the BSPA to be the primary sponsor, just that they endorse the primary sponsor, confirming that the applicant meets the Governing bodies requirements to give that endorsement.

 

As Doyle has clearly had the BSPA's blessing under previous T2 rules, I would asked what's changed, and why won't they give their support under T5 rules ?

 

UK BORDER AGENCY - Before assigning your certificate of sponsorship in the sporting sub-category, your sponsor must have an endorsement for you from the governing body for your sport, which confirms you meet the governing body's requirements to give their endorsement. The governing body must be recognised by us.

 

You`re the man Dave.

 

 

 

 

Again not quite true, a T5 visa allows the applicant to work 20 hours a week in an extra job in the same sector as that job that their certificate of sponsorship is for (something that would cover Doyle's activities with Leicester. I would guess that the only role the BSPA would be asked to do is monitor that, so once again I would ask why they wouldn't do that

 

UK BORDER AGENCY - You can do extra work (supplementary work) to the job that you have a certificate of sponsorship for if:

• it is in the same sector at the same level as the job that your certificate of sponsorship is for or in a job on the shortage occupation list;
• the work is no more than 20 hours a week; and
• the work is outside the working hours that the certificate of sponsorship is for.

I would suggest that it's not the riders that need to know the rules, but the powers that be. It took me 5 minutes to find out what is required of the governing body, and according to the border agency rules its clearly not the role of primary sponsor, nor does it involve them incurring massive cost. At most they would only be required to monitor the number of hours a rider worked in the extra work, and ensure it didn't go beyond 20 hours a week......the cost of this is a few minutes work per rider each week, for someone with a spread sheet.

 

Or maybe cost is just an excuse, and not the real issue with the BSPA, maybe they have other reasons for not supporting T5 visa for Jason Doyle and the other Australians who find themselves in a similar position, but until they tell us we'll never know.

 

Answers on a postcard please.

 

Quote gadget playing up AGAIN, Dave you are the man.

[Najjer]

Regardless of whether Doyle could ride for Leicester as well on a T5 visa, what would be the issues to prevent him riding for just Somerset?

 

As his primary sponsor, of course.....

[havenagotahope]

Just a quick question but has Nick Morris got a visa here there are at least six Aussie who are having problems.

[womble53]

Good research Womble.

 

I will play devils advocate as a pendaintic border agency worker deciding whether to stamp the Doyle visa.

 

Point 1 - The supplementary work must be at the same level or on the shortage occupation list. DECLINE

 

Point 3 - The additional hours must be outside the normal working hours of the original sponsorship. DECLINE

 

What happened to point 2

 

Good points, and can see entirely where you're coming from, but I would imagine it would be possible to overcome those type of objections if the BSPA had to will to do so, which again begs the question why not?

 

On Point 3 for instance, it could be argued that the addition hours are outside the normal working hours of the original sponsorship, as they are not being under taken for that sponsor, and are therefore outside those required of the applicant by that sponsor.......it's all a matter of interpretation I suppose

 

 

Is he Established at the highest level?? You could argue Doyle is but the others wouldn't be and maybe him coming and going out of the country which requires a further/ addition to his visa may be a stumbling block??

 

If riding in your countries National team is not at the highest level I don't know what is, and as for coming and going to ride in Europe is concerned, that's also covered in the regulations and it appears that there should be no problems in that area too.

 

UK BORDER AGENCY - If you need to be able to come and go from the UK with your job

If you need to leave and come back to the UK quite often as part of the job you are doing, you can get a multiple entry certificate of sponsorship from your employer. This will allow you to come and go a number of times during the length of the certificate

Just a quick question but has Nick Morris got a visa here there are at least six Aussie who are having problems.

 

He has a British Passport as far as I know, but I stand to be corrected on that

Edited January 26, 2014 by womble53

[Paulco]

 

What happened to point 2

 

Good points, and can see entirely where you're coming from, but I would imagine it would be possible to overcome those type of objections if the BSPA had to will to do so, which again begs the question why not?

 

On Point 3 for instance, it could be argued that the addition hours are outside the normal working hours of the original sponsorship, as they are not being under taken for that sponsor, and are therefore outside those required of the applicant by that sponsor.......it's all a matter of interpretation I suppose

 

 

 

If riding in your countries National team is not at the highest level I don't know what is, and as for coming and going to ride in Europe is concerned, that's also covered in the regulations and it appears that there should be no problems in that area too.

 

UK BORDER AGENCY - If you need to be able to come and go from the UK with your job

If you need to leave and come back to the UK quite often as part of the job you are doing, you can get a multiple entry certificate of sponsorship from your employer. This will allow you to come and go a number of times during the length of the certificate

 

He has a British Passport as far as I know, but I stand to be corrected on that

Nick has mate , his father is English

[orderly]

What about all these foreign football players, rugby players etc never hear about them having visa problems or is it only speedway riders that this rule applies to

[A ORLOV]

It was mentioned that a few Rugby players have also had visa issues and cannot now play here for the season.

[montie]

It was mentioned that a few Rugby players have also had visa issues and cannot now play here for the season.

It seems alot of cricket players who come here from Aussie/NZ to play at various levels are also having huge problems with visas

[Arson fire]

So now we are leaning towards using the Bspa as a scapegoat for Doyle and Somersets balls up??....

It seems alot of cricket players who come here from Aussie/NZ to play at various levels are also having huge problems with visas

cant be surely??.... Only speedway is victimized in these situations.

[Tsunami]

 

 

The UK Border Agency conditions for a T5 visa do not require the BSPA to be the primary sponsor, just that they endorse the primary sponsor, confirming that the applicant meets the Governing bodies requirements to give that endorsement.

 

As Doyle has clearly had the BSPA's blessing under previous T2 rules, I would asked what's changed, and why won't they give their support under T5 rules ?

 

UK BORDER AGENCY - Before assigning your certificate of sponsorship in the sporting sub-category, your sponsor must have an endorsement for you from the governing body for your sport, which confirms you meet the governing body's requirements to give their endorsement. The governing body must be recognised by us.

 

 

 

Again not quite true, a T5 visa allows the applicant to work 20 hours a week in an extra job in the same sector as that job that their certificate of sponsorship is for (something that would cover Doyle's activities with Leicester. I would guess that the only role the BSPA would be asked to do is monitor that, so once again I would ask why they wouldn't do that

 

UK BORDER AGENCY - You can do extra work (supplementary work) to the job that you have a certificate of sponsorship for if:

• it is in the same sector at the same level as the job that your certificate of sponsorship is for or in a job on the shortage occupation list;
• the work is no more than 20 hours a week; and
• the work is outside the working hours that the certificate of sponsorship is for.

 

I would suggest that it's not the riders that need to know the rules, but the powers that be. It took me 5 minutes to find out what is required of the governing body, and according to the border agency rules its clearly not the role of primary sponsor, nor does it involve them incurring massive cost. At most they would only be required to monitor the number of hours a rider worked in the extra work, and ensure it didn't go beyond 20 hours a week......the cost of this is a few minutes work per rider each week, for someone with a spread sheet.

 

Or maybe cost is just an excuse, and not the real issue with the BSPA, maybe they have other reasons for not supporting T5 visa for Jason Doyle and the other Australians who find themselves in a similar position, but until they tell us we'll never know.

 

Answers on a postcard please.

 

 

Good research womble and interesting points raised, Thanks. I obviously don't know the BSPA's reasons for their stance, but I have no doubt it will be for valid reasons, perhaps we don't appreciate. We will see.

 

In the second point, I did say "I personally have my own doubts' about the suggestion that a new visa would be required between Leicester and Somerset meetings. So no "not quite true".

 

Totally disagree. Surely It is an employees position to know the rules, and then to abide by them legally. As Arson has said, "are the BSPA just being made a scapegoat for the failings of Doyle and Somersets balls up ??",etc". Perhaps the ones who have fell foul of the immigration rules, need to take a leaf out of Tungate's book, and change the renewal date of their visa's to nearer the start of the new season, when they are in a better position to know they have a riding contract for the new season.

 

 

No doubt we will find out the real reasonings in due course, I hope so.

[Pirate Nick]

 

Good research womble and interesting points raised, Thanks. I obviously don't know the BSPA's reasons for their stance, but I have no doubt it will be for valid reasons, perhaps we don't appreciate. We will see.

 

In the second point, I did say "I personally have my own doubts' about the suggestion that a new visa would be required between Leicester and Somerset meetings. So no "not quite true".

 

Totally disagree. Surely It is an employees position to know the rules, and then to abide by them legally. As Arson has said, "are the BSPA just being made a scapegoat for the failings of Doyle and Somersets balls up ??",etc". Perhaps the ones who have fell foul of the immigration rules, need to take a leaf out of Tungate's book, and change the renewal date of their visa's to nearer the start of the new season, when they are in a better position to know they have a riding contract for the new season.

 

 

No doubt we will find out the real reasonings in due course, I hope so.

 

Nobody is trying to make the BSPA scapegoats for JD's lack of a visa, we're just saying that he could ride on a Tier 5 if the BSPA agree and that there doesn't appear to be any reason why they can't.

 

As for your last sentence, I admire you optimism my friend

[womble53]

So now we are leaning towards using the Bspa as a scapegoat for Doyle and Somersets balls up??....

cant be surely??.... Only speedway is victimized in these situations.

 

I don't think I said that the BSPA were scapegoats, I was just asking the question why they wouldn't endorse a T5 visa application, whether it be Jason Doyle's, or any other rider caught up in a similar situation.

 

As far as this discussion is concerned, in essence the only difference between a T2 & T5 visa application, apart from the restriction on the time allowed for stay of a T5, is the fact that the governing body has to endorse the sponsors certificate of sponsorship, so my question would be why not?

 

 

 

Totally disagree. Surely It is an employees position to know the rules, and then to abide by them legally. As Arson has said, "are the BSPA just being made a scapegoat for the failings of Doyle and Somersets balls up ??",etc". Perhaps the ones who have fell foul of the immigration rules, need to take a leaf out of Tungate's book, and change the renewal date of their visa's to nearer the start of the new season, when they are in a better position to know they have a riding contract for the new season.

 

Maybe I could have phrased it better, and yes I agree that riders should know the rules, but equally the governing body, in this case the BSPA, should also be aware of their responsibilities, which from what we are seeing and hearing, appears not to be the case. So I would just ask again, what are the reasons for not supporting an endorsement ?

 

As for the scapegoat comments, I think I have answered that above. As I have already said, there is little difference in essence between the two types of visa, excepting that one is a little more temporary than the other. The major difference in this case is that the T5 requires the governing body to endorse the Sponsors certificate.

 

Given that most of the members of the BSPA are happy to employ riders requiring a T2 to enter the country, what possible objections could they have for not endorsing a T5 application, no matter who it was for, because as individual promoters, I am sure that if it happed to a rider they wanted to employ, they too would be busting a gut to go down the T 5 route. Until the governing body actually comes out and explains the reasoning behind the refusal, we are all in the dark, and there are enough conspiracy theorist on here to make what they will of that little conundrum.

 

Until all those requiring a visa to ride here take a leaf out of Mr Tungate's book, we will have similar situations occurring time and time again, so maybe it's time for the governing body of the sport to clarify their motives for refusal for all to see, and not just for those who have their ear. Until that happens the hoary old 'self Interest' chestnut will keep raising its ugly head, and we will be rehashing this conversation until the sport finally dies from a self induced dose of incestuous nepotism.

Edited January 26, 2014 by womble53

[Tsunami]

 

Nobody is trying to make the BSPA scapegoats for JD's lack of a visa, we're just saying that he could ride on a Tier 5 if the BSPA agree and that there doesn't appear to be any reason why they can't.

 

As for your last sentence, I admire you optimism my friend

That's why i said "I hope so" Nick.

 

I don't think I said that the BSPA were scapegoats, I was just asking the question why they wouldn't endorse a T5 visa application, whether it be Jason Doyle's, or any other rider caught up in a similar situation.

 

As far as this discussion is concerned, in essence the only difference between a T2 & T5 visa application, apart from the restriction on the time allowed for stay of a T5, is the fact that the governing body has to endorse the sponsors certificate of sponsorship, so my question would be why not?

 

 

Maybe I could have phrased it better, and yes I agree that riders should know the rules, but equally the governing body, in this case the BSPA, should also be aware of their responsibilities, which from what we are seeing and hearing, appears not to be the case. So I would just ask again, what are the reasons for not supporting an endorsement ?

 

As for the scapegoat comments, I think I have answered that above. As I have already said, there is little difference in essence between the two types of visa, excepting that one is a little more temporary than the other. The major difference in this case is that the T5 requires the governing body to endorse the Sponsors certificate.

 

Given that most of the members of the BSPA are happy to employ riders requiring a T2 to enter the country, what possible objections could they have for not endorsing a T5 application, no matter who it was for, because as individual promoters, I am sure that if it happed to a rider they wanted to employ, they too would be busting a gut to go down the T 5 route. Until the governing body actually comes out an explains the reasoning behind the refusal, we are all in the dark, and there are enough conspiracy theorist on here to make what they will of that little conundrum.

 

Until all those requiring a visa to ride here take a leaf out of Mr Tungate's book, we will have similar situations occurring time and time again, so maybe it's time for the governing body of the sport to clarify their motives for refusal for all to see, and not just for those who have their ear. Until that happens the hoary old 'self Interest' chestnut will keep raising its ugly head, and we will be rehashing this conversation until the sport finally dies from a self induced dose of incestuous nepotism.

Surely those phrases are hardly applicable. This is an internal BSPA matter, not a BSPA issue against others.

 

It's been an interesting discussion till those phrases. Yes, it has been refused for Doyle and Somerset in this case, but the BSPA position applies to ALL.

[womble53]

That's why i said "I hope so" Nick.

Surely those phrases are hardly applicable. This is an internal BSPA matter, not a BSPA issue against others.

 

It's been an interesting discussion till those phrases. Yes, it has been refused for Doyle and Somerset in this case, but the BSPA position applies to ALL.

 

 

That was exactly my point, as it applies to all, why aren't the objections to endorsing any T5 application, not just Doyle's, being made clear for all to see.

 

As you say, those phrases may not be applicable, but the longer there is silence from Rugby, the more people will explore that route. As they would with any organization where, for want of a better phrase and not wishing to upset anyone's sensibilities, the 'lunatics run the asylum', but you know what I mean.

Edited January 27, 2014 by womble53

[oldtimer]

puzzling quote in an article written by a Helen Kennedy in this weeks Star. Talking about Somerset's opening match challenges against Plymouth. Gary is quoted as saying "it will see an early return of Kyle Newman which should provide added spice to the matches and with Kyle lining up for The Devils it will give an additional edge no doubt."

 

No mention of Alex Davies, very strange, perhaps it's his visa problem!

Just read further on in the Star and Plymouth say Alex visa turned down, so that explains it.

[Starman2006]

Just read further on in the Star and Plymouth say Alex visa turned down, so that explains it.

One day these Aussies might learn. Sort ya visa out before you bugger orf home. Then you can bugger off home to the sun, and do ya surfing or whatever you wanna do. A few weeks extra in this country at the end of the season will pay for a whole seasons wages...

[montie]

One day these Aussies might learn. Sort ya visa out before you bugger orf home. Then you can bugger off home to the sun, and do ya surfing or whatever you wanna do. A few weeks extra in this country at the end of the season will pay for a whole seasons wages...

 

Bit harsh that.--seems its a change in the rules that has caught them out,not so much they didnt sort them out

 

Looking at the UKBA website,i fail to see why Doyle etc cant use T5 visas,infact the wording of it indicates that that is the one they should use,not T2