Blazeaway Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 GP's everytime. After the one off, I occasionally felt cheated as good riders dropped a chain and that was it, end of world final for them. oddly though, Tia winning the world championship has rekindled my brothers interest and he hasn't been since Tatum rode for Cov! Was hoping Tia would make a reappearance, fed up with everyone going on about this Tai fellow... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidncohen Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Actually, it's topics like this that hold Speedway back, continuously focusing on what was, Yes, world final nights under the twin towers were fantastic occasions, but speedway was probably the only big time motor sport that _didn't_ have a grand prix system to decide it's world champion. We've moved on - a long time ago, actually. OK, the British Final meant a lot more back then, but so what - it's just part of the rich historical tapestry of the sport, doff your cap to it, remember some great meetings, but it's in the past. It's swings and roundabouts, and not much stands still - we've now got something that is among the best motor sport on two wheels around and long may it continue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george.m Posted October 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Actually, it's topics like this that hold Speedway back, continuously focusing on what was, Yes, world final nights under the twin towers were fantastic occasions, but speedway was probably the only big time motor sport that _didn't_ have a grand prix system to decide it's world champion. We've moved on - a long time ago, actually. OK, the British Final meant a lot more back then, but so what - it's just part of the rich historical tapestry of the sport, doff your cap to it, remember some great meetings, but it's in the past. It's swings and roundabouts, and not much stands still - we've now got something that is among the best motor sport on two wheels around and long may it continue. Perhaps I could have made the initial post clearer davidncohen. The point I was trying to make is to those who want to go back to a one off final, which I disagree with. They have the British world champion they wanted, but he probably wouldn't be world champ under the one off system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidncohen Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 Perhaps I could have made the initial post clearer davidncohen. The point I was trying to make is to those who want to go back to a one off final, which I disagree with. They have the British world champion they wanted, but he probably wouldn't be world champ under the one off system. george.m - No, I think your post was clear to me. To be a bit clearer myself, the point is, why even ask the question in the first place? It's coming up for nearly 20 years since the SGP started, and yet we still feel it necessary to ask questions like this. Why? Where does it really get us? Who cares about the people who still want a one-off World Final. Why even give them the media space, the credibility, in the first place? Hope this makes it a bit clearer. Do you think the BBC and all the other media organisations who covered Tai's great success even for one tiny moment asked this question? The answer is no. So why should we bring it up and give anyone the opportunity? It's a bit like asking would the stars of the 60's have beaten today's current crop, given equal motor bikes (No, it's OK, no-one has to answer this :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorum Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 (edited) I am a big Emil fan and wanted him to win this year. But the pressure got to him and Tai overhauled his lead. Tai is a thouroughly deserved world champion and did it the hard way. Emil may well end up as one of those greats who never win a world title. I do hope that is not the case as he is such a great rider. But to belittle Tai's world championship win is a bit silly. The guy won it fair and square and probably would have done it whoever was there. He had his share of injuries and who is to say he would have not scored more points if fit. For me the world champion deserves to be world champion by virtue of beating those he has to beat. Injuries have always played a part in this sport and always will. Sometimes those deserving of something become injured and fail to get it. Welcome to Speedway And as far as one off finals go. No is my answer. Under the old system we would likely never get a Brit champion. The GP system seperates the men from the boys in a way the one off system never could. Babbling on about qualifiers and some mythical fairness the old system had is pointless. The GP system ensures the best are fighting it out in a way qualifiers never could. I was at Wembley when Penhall won. Great crowd and great atmosphere but OK racing and the field was not the best 16 riders by any means. Forget Wembley and what once was. That crowd no longer exists here and they struggle to get 40000 in Cardiff. History is great and speedway has a great history but living in the past should be left to Jethro Tull. Edited October 15, 2013 by pandorum 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob tatum Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 Tai deserved his world champion as I believe with the SGP is a true test. For those saying that in a one off final tai wouldn't of won well ok who would of then ? Even dryml could of had a dynamite night in a one off & ended up world champion. SGP is here to stay GOOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 151/12 = 12.58 Niamh Tai didn't complete 12 rounds. He didn't complete the British Grand Prix, he only took 3 out of what would have certainly been at least 6 and probably 7 rides, before Freddie Lindgren injured him. I think this is "half" a meeting, if you're looking at an average. 151/11.5 = 13.13, a higher average than Emil. But, however you look at it, Tai was leading the World Championship when Emil was injured, and then, faced with a fresh collarbone injury (of his own making this time), he did what he needed to, to secure the championship. A very deserving champion!! All the best Rob 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark cox Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 You would have to be a fickle character if it did! The GP series has produced some of the best racing ever seen, but the format hasn't dictated this just tremendous riding ability etc. A world championship series based on qualifying rounds from the olden days (yes!), with the resultant champions & run-offs to determine next round qualifiers would provide even better viewing than currently on offer. Every meeting would actually mean something leading to the grand finale at the end of the season when any of the 16 riders could win it & be decided in the very last race... just imagine... not like between 2 riders by heat 6 or whatever it was the other night. The GP format is seen as fairer & is obviously what every other motor sport does, but any sport as one of its primary purposes should aim to engage & entertain. In athletics for example, there is a grand prix series & there are also what are essentially one-off events the World Championships & the olympics... One format is seen as fairer whilst the other is the pinnacle of sport & is remembered forever. One off events will always punish the unlucky, but they also give opportunity to the great ones who have the ability to perform at their best when it really matters. Tai Woffinden is one of those who would win at any format & long may he continue. Obviously these are the crazed ramblings of a black country caveman from the last century & the GP series is er, a great product & everything & there were many boring one off finals in the olden days, but ... I'll get me coat... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidncohen Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 And as far as one off finals go. No is my answer. Under the old system we would likely never get a Brit champion. The GP system seperates the men from the boys in a way the one off system never could. Babbling on about qualifiers and some mythical fairness the old system had is pointless. The GP system ensures the best are fighting it out in a way qualifiers never could. I was at Wembley when Penhall won. Great crowd and great atmosphere but OK racing and the field was not the best 16 riders by any means. Forget Wembley and what once was. That crowd no longer exists here and they struggle to get 40000 in Cardiff. History is great and speedway has a great history but living in the past should be left to Jethro Tull. Couldn't have said it better myself - great post. Like the JT reference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyJ Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 (edited) Tai didn't complete 12 rounds. He didn't complete the British Grand Prix, he only took 3 out of what would have certainly been at least 6 and probably 7 rides, before Freddie Lindgren injured him. I think this is "half" a meeting, if you're looking at an average. 151/11.5 = 13.13, a higher average than Emil. But, however you look at it, Tai was leading the World Championship when Emil was injured, and then, faced with a fresh collarbone injury (of his own making this time), he did what he needed to, to secure the championship. A very deserving champion!! All the best Rob Looking at it another way; If we only consider the first 20 heats from each GP * Tai scored 124 points from 59 races. This equates to a five-ride average of 10.51. * Emil scored 89 from 45 races. Average 9.89. Semi-finals and finals * Tai scored 27 points from 16 races. Average 8.44. * Emil scored 25 from 12 races. Average 10.42 Overall * Tai scored 151 from 75 races. Average 10.07 * Emil scored 114 from 57 races. Average 10.00 Interestingly (well it is to us statistics nerds!) Darcy Ward's equivalent figures; * (first 20) scored 91 from 42 races. Average 10.83 * (SF and F) scored 15 from 10 races. Average 7.50 * (overall) scored 106 from 52 races. Average 10.19 Edited October 16, 2013 by Tkdandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Looking at it another way; If we only consider the first 20 heats from each GP * Tai scored 124 points from 59 races. This equates to a five-ride average of 10.51. * Emil scored 89 from 45 races. Average 9.89. Semi-finals and finals * Tai scored 27 points from 16 races. Average 8.44. * Emil scored 25 from 12 races. Average 10.42 Overall * Tai scored 151 from 75 races. Average 10.07 * Emil scored 114 from 57 races. Average 10.00 Interestingly (well it is to us statistics nerds!) Darcy Ward's equivalent figures; * (first 20) scored 91 from 42 races. Average 10.83 * (SF and F) scored 15 from 10 races. Average 7.50 * (overall) scored 106 from 52 races. Average 10.19 Interesting. Especially as it shows where the strength of each rider lies. But I think you've included Tai's fourth ride at Cardiff which was a FN rather than a FX, and therefore should not be included in the figures. 151/74 = 10.20, so Tai does pip Darcy by 0.01!! All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Interesting. Especially as it shows where the strength of each rider lies. But I think you've included Tai's fourth ride at Cardiff which was a FN rather than a FX, and therefore should not be included in the figures. 151/74 = 10.20, so Tai does pip Darcy by 0.01!! All the best Rob Hark at you... I think you must be the only bloke that has a little black book full of Speedway stats, Rob - In different coloured pens too. Ha ha ha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cockney Rebel Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 The GP system is fairer than the old one off, although apart from Jerzy wotsname in 1973 I don't think there was any champion who wasn't worthy of the title. But the one offs were much more exciting for the fans, I went to all the World Finals at Wembley from1963 to 1981 and the racing wasn't always great but the atmosphere was absolutely electric because you knew that at the end of the meeting a new World Champion would be crowned. Today you have to try and guess what GP the champ will be crowned. This year all of those that attended Stockholm would have expected to see Woffy crowned only to be dissappointed and for those at Torun it was all over by heat 5. Have only been to one Cardiff GP and while the atmosphere was good the knowledge that there was another 4 rounds, or whatever it was then, to go, diluted some of the excitement. Also at the beginning of every season every rider could dream of becoming World Champion that year, whereas nowadays if you're good enough this year you might get the chance to take part in next years qualifiers for the following years GPs. It's interesting to see that while the World Championship now take all year to win, the Leagues are decided in a couple of matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Hark at you... I think you must be the only bloke that has a little black book full of Speedway stats, Rob - In different coloured pens too. Ha ha ha Hey, there's people around who are worse than I am All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Hey, there's people around who are worse than I am All the best Rob :o No way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Isn't it ironic that on the one hand league racing is increasing moving to 'playoffs' because they're supposedly more exciting, yet the World Championship moves ever more in the direction of a league system. I also wonder what the correlation is between those advocating 'playoffs' to decide titles, and those who decry advocates of the World Finals as being dinosaurs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Humph, isn't each Grand Prix a bit like the league? Regular EL matches followed by KO play-offs. Regular 20 heats followed by KO semis and final. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiamondsRock Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 The GP's are a much better way of deciding a champion, rather than having a one off final, where any rider can fluke the title on a wet night... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothorsen Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I agree that the GP is the right way to decide a world champion, but I'm not too crazy about "Great 8" and wild cards. Only three riders qualifying? Should've been max five riders, or even only the final rostrum who got to the next year without dropping the clutch. And the wild cards handed out are based on business, not performance. But what'cha gonna gadoo... Here's to next (injury free) season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritPete Posted November 10, 2013 Report Share Posted November 10, 2013 There can be no doubt that the GP format is a lot fairer than the old one-off world final, but nothing can quite compete with the tension and excitement of the old finals, whereby one mistake, engine failure, or fall, would mean the end, because no one ever won a world title with less than 13 points. Qualification these days is much easier too, at least for the riders already included, I mean finishing in the top eight should not be too hard for the top riders, and even if that fails, then a wildcard is always possible. Overall, I just about prefer the GP series, mainly because the system is fairer, and in the old one-off days the best 16 riders in the world were never in the final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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