pandorum Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Grading of riders has been considered several times, but the system has more flaws than direct averages. Within grades there are bands covering say 1 point, e.g, 6.99 to 7.99. One team gets say a 7.01 rider and another richer team gets a 7.99 rider, so the lesser teams will lose part of the potential sum total of the agreed grading value. If say a team signs all lower riders within their grades, their team could be about 6 points value less than someone who is rich enough to sign all the top of grade riders. Averages don't lose or gain value, they are what they are, and are much more practical than anything others have considered. Everyone, to start with, has the opportunity to sign riders upto the agreed limit, making the potential of equal value teams. Grading does not. There is still the possibility of discounts for signing home riders in either system. It's a fair point and I concede there are flaws and abuse whatever the system. The advantage of grading if you allow grades to stand for a reasonable period of time is in team stability. Also it opens up a sensible squad system as with the Danish model. Instead of trying to scrabble about trying to fiddle your team average as Poole did at Swindon with a plethora of engine failures simply have ABCD grades and a squad of riders. Each team has a set number of each per match. Replace a graded rider who is injured with the same grade or lower from your squad. Of course the difficulty comes in having enough riders for a squad system but other leagues seem to manage squads. Averages failed the sport decades ago as far as I can see. But as you say no system is perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I was speaking to someone who was at Perry Barr last night and their main reaction about the meeting was not about the quality of the racing (which was deemed as OK), but the ridiculously long time it took the meeting to be run. They left before Heat 15. I know Sky like the double header nature of the play-off semi's but it always drags the meetings on for ever. Couldn't agree more. That was the one downside at Wimborne Road too, especially after it had been announced that the first televised race (from Perry Barr) would be at 7.40 pm. It was very drawn out and unnecessarily so. What it must have been like for the 2 BBC Radio 'simulcasts' (Solent and Wiltshire), who started their broadcasts at 7.05, with all the long gaps, no action and limited background knowledge, goodness only knows?! Another media 'own goal' because of Sky's production!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 It's a fair point and I concede there are flaws and abuse whatever the system. The advantage of grading if you allow grades to stand for a reasonable period of time is in team stability. Also it opens up a sensible squad system as with the Danish model. Instead of trying to scrabble about trying to fiddle your team average as Poole did at Swindon with a plethora of engine failures simply have ABCD grades and a squad of riders. Each team has a set number of each per match. Replace a graded rider who is injured with the same grade or lower from your squad. Of course the difficulty comes in having enough riders for a squad system but other leagues seem to manage squads. Averages failed the sport decades ago as far as I can see. But as you say no system is perfect so your grade b rider gets injured. He's graded b because his average us between 6 and 8. So you use a squad rider on a grade b. how's that different to a 7 pointer getting injured and replaced by a squad rider on a 6 point average? Yet it has the downside Tsunami mentions. Grading is a truly terrible idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) I also thought the entertainemnt last night was average. Can't understand why SKY insists on building up to the Play-Offs and then cramming 30 races into one show for the two-legged semis. My old brain can't keep up with the dipping to and from each track and it is confusing me. Also think the Play-Offs have lost a little of their shine, teams and riders pretending they are really keen to win, Alun Rossiter hugging the camera and appearing to be one step away from taking his life as Swindon dip out. It's a game, man, an entertainment industry... but after 30 heats of mashed-up speedway last night, the only entertaining thought was the calling of my pillow. As for the crowd, I've seen better attendances at Belle Vue's chopper bike championship in the 1970s (a winter event staged on old grifter pushbikes in one of the suites at the old Belle Vue) Edited October 1, 2013 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelvinht Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I don't like the 2 semi's in one night. You lose the thread keeping jumping around and don't get to see replays of all the better bits as they have zip off to the other track. Its all very disjointed, then you get a couple of falls as we did last night and it all goes to pot towards the end. Was at the Norfolk Arena a couple of years back when the Stars made the PO's - it was the worst nights entertainment I'd seen all season - not due to the racing, but continual stop / start nature of the racing and killed the atmosphere and it was a right drag. The play offs should be a great finale to the season, but in the current form they don't really work for either the spectator or arm chair viewer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 OVER the past two Mondays we have been greatly entertained on Sky with terrific meetings from Swindon, Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Poole. Last night's fare from Wimborne Road, especially for neutrals like me, was pulsating. Good racing surfaces, good crowds, what more could you want? If British speedway was always like this (an impossible dream I know) the sport would have no financial woes and Sky wouldn't even hesitate about a new contract. What is does prove is that fundamentally the actual product can still be terrific. That's the frustrating part. Cant say I agree ...the semi's should never been shown and rode on the same night being a fan at the match I found it like pulling teeth waiting for the next heat ...I thought the crowd last night at Poole was very poor ,got there thinking there would a massive wait to get in only to find no one outside at all and we just walk it and bar the stand it very Spartan ...saying that I guess it must have look good on tv but as a fan at the match I did not enjoy it and it was nowt to to do with the result . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I must congratulate the Birmingham riders for going into the crowd at the end of the meeting, chatting, having photos taken for me this should be done more often, its the personal touch which is being lost nowadays. Thats what kids remember, and come back for more, well in my day it was, so well done Brummies. How right you are!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) why can't all speedway be like this? play offs bring a 'crap or bust' mentality', which I am sure is probably enhanced by a bigger than average financial inducement for the riders... also each team can cherry pick an 'horses for courses' team selection when it comes to double uppers as there is no PL clash, hence the 'worst rider' is more than capable of holding his own.. and finally Esther... the league is nothing more than glorified qualifying rounds where riders know 'there is always the next meeting, (as long as I dont get injured)' which leads to 'minimal risk taking' riding.... put up a big financial inducement on every meeting with 14 riders of pretty similar ability and 'on the edge speedway' would be the norm, a la SGP... Edited October 1, 2013 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I also thought the entertainemnt last night was average. Can't understand why SKY insists on building up to the Play-Offs and then cramming 30 races into one show for the two-legged semis. My old brain can't keep up with the dipping to and from each track and it is confusing me. Also think the Play-Offs have lost a little of their shine, teams and riders pretending they are really keen to win, Alun Rossiter hugging the camera and appearing to be one step away from taking his life as Swindon dip out. It's a game, man, an entertainment industry... but after 30 heats of mashed-up speedway last night, the only entertaining thought was the calling of my pillow. As for the crowd, I've seen better attendances at Belle Vue's chopper bike championship in the 1970s (a winter event staged on old grifter pushbikes in one of the suites at the old Belle Vue) Ain't that the truth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I was speaking to someone who was at Perry Barr last night and their main reaction about the meeting was not about the quality of the racing (which was deemed as OK), but the ridiculously long time it took the meeting to be run. They left before Heat 15. I know Sky like the double header nature of the play-off semi's but it always drags the meetings on for ever. Semi finals should be run on two separate days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Grading of riders has been considered several times, but the system has more flaws than direct averages. Within grades there are bands covering say 1 point, e.g, 6.99 to 7.99. One team gets say a 7.01 rider and another richer team gets a 7.99 rider, so the lesser teams will lose part of the potential sum total of the agreed grading value. If say a team signs all lower riders within their grades, their team could be about 6 points value less than someone who is rich enough to sign all the top of grade riders. Averages don't lose or gain value, they are what they are, and are much more practical than anything others have considered. Everyone, to start with, has the opportunity to sign riders upto the agreed limit, making the potential of equal value teams. Grading does not. There is still the possibility of discounts for signing home riders in either system. BRING BACK RIDER CONTROL!!! :blink: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 BRING BACK RIDER CONTROL!!! :blink: They have, it's now called points limit and you sign who you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LagutaRacingFan Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 We need stars like Jepsen Jensen back in British speedway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 We need stars like Jepsen Jensen back in British speedway. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonimac Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 If Sky do decide to pull the plug, it would be a great shame. As someone who has returned to to speedway after many years away, it seems to me that only Sky have attempted to drag the sport into the 21st century. Their coverage has been excellent for two reasons. (1) They attempt to portray the sport in the best light possible- camera angles which suggest bigger crowds and a greater atmosphere than is actually present (from reports, Poole this week would be a case in point).(2) I've gained a much greater appreciation of riders/engines/track craft from Chris Louis in the pits this season than all my years at Coatbridge/Glasgow and now Eastbourne. And Nigel Pearson, righty or wrongly, tries so hard to breathe life into a race where 9 times out of 10 things are settled in the first 2 corners. I realise this can distract people but what comes across to me is his real love of the sport. I went back to Arlington for the first time in 13 years, drawn in by watching Darcy Ward, Chris Holder and (pantomime villain) Niki Pederson on TV. I was amazed that the crowd for an Elite League meeting was smaller than a national league meeting at Blantyre 30 years ago. And the world champion was on show! Having said that, the crowd themselves were as polite and enthusiastic as ever. Again, people who love the sport. But the facilities were no better than Blantyre. I mean no disrespect to the Dugards and Trevor Geer (who apparently works for free!) as they can only work with the money they bring through the gate. It made me wonder whether the track would benefit from being in the Premier League (do you realise how ridiculous that name sounds when it's not actually the top league?) where they could have 12 league matches plus the KO Cup? Do we realise that if Ryanair went out of business, we would have little or no world class riders competing in the UK? My question would be Why can Polish speedway promoters attract thousands through their gate? Purely guessing, I'd go for cheap gate prices and better stadiums surrounding smooth tracks with a bit of dirt on the outside? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 BRING BACK RIDER CONTROL!!! :blink: They have, it's now called points limit and you sign who you want. Here's how it works:- A rider decides what points average he wants to be on and then manipulates several 'engine failures' until he attains that average. Hence RIDER CONTROL. Simple! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 OVER the past two Mondays we have been greatly entertained on Sky with terrific meetings from Swindon, Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Poole. Last night's fare from Wimborne Road, especially for neutrals like me, was pulsating. Good racing surfaces, good crowds, what more could you want? If British speedway was always like this (an impossible dream I know) the sport would have no financial woes and Sky wouldn't even hesitate about a new contract. What is does prove is that fundamentally the actual product can still be terrific Your right but promotions should look at themselves. You would know more but maybe some have taken the Sky money and done very little to improve the product for it. Cant agree about Poole's track. Riders were taking off and leaving the ground when hitting a ridge entering bend 1. Have a look at the replay when Andersen and Josh G came together as an example. The track only has one line up by the fence after a few heats. Didn't the Poole team complain earlier in the season ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 TRACK has been relaid since then and, frankly, riders weren't complaining on Monday. How often do you see a 'perfect' track these days anywhere? In fact, a track that is too easy to ride and doesn't cause any mistakes can result in a boring meeting. It's all in the eyes of the beholder of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonimac Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Philip, I'm back watching speedway after a long time away. With regard to the tracks, would you say it's unusual to have so many top riders having bad injuries in one season? Especially on poorly prepared surfaces or temporary tracks eg Woffy has broke his collarbone twice at temporary circuits. I'm also thinking of Lingren at Cardiff, injured from nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) OVER the past two Mondays we have been greatly entertained on Sky with terrific meetings from Swindon, Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Poole. Last night's fare from Wimborne Road, especially for neutrals like me, was pulsating. Good racing surfaces, good crowds, what more could you want? If British speedway was always like this (an impossible dream I know) the sport would have no financial woes and Sky wouldn't even hesitate about a new contract. What is does prove is that fundamentally the actual product can still be terrific. That's the frustrating part. Interesting and refreshingly honest match report in this weeks speedway star from Paul Rickett reporting on the 13 heat Retro cup fixture at Sheffield last Thursday.He reports"The message from the 13 heat exercise was that,even though the scoreline was nip and tuck all the way through,if the promoters really want to turn the clock back to the old terrace thronged days,then on this end of season evidence they might be better off addressing what is more and more becoming the problem of supercharged processional racing"Some reporters particularity the one in the local newspaper I read regularly describes meeting as thrillers when having attended I know that they were not.The problem lies with that most speedway reporters/journalists are fans(think Nigel Pearson)and are loathed to paint the sport in a negative light.Also today expectations of the sport have become less than they were,a heat with a pass or a meeting with 5 passes in total are labelled classics when they are not,similarly with crowds,anything over 1000 is deemed huge by the commentators,when in reality a few years ago that figure was just the norm.The recent meeting at Poole was no where near the standard of the classic Play off final of 2010 and the crowd significantly less.Unfortunately speedway took another direction after 2010 which may go some way to explaining why the racing is more processional and crowds are reducing year on year ! Edited October 3, 2013 by New Science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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