F2 Speedway - Any Views?

[kiwi]

so how many F2 bikes are there around now. Is it still 3

[Guest]

I think that there have been some F2 speedway bike tests recently? Can any forum colleague confirm this. And, if such tests were held, is there any update on how the bikes performed?

[SteveLyric2]

I'm sure they were tested/used at Leicester recently but I have no direct feedback other than a couple of 'positive' posts/pics on facebook!

[P T Preece]

Slightly disappointing, havent seen any of this any where. Hoped they would show it at Rye in the KOC final the bikes where there but no action.

Seemed odd not having them race around.

[speedibee]

Slightly disappointing, havent seen any of this any where. Hoped they would show it at Rye in the KOC final the bikes where there but no action.

Seemed odd not having them race around.

You may well have seen them and not realised what they were as they are 100% speedway , and if they weren't announced you would not be able to tell the difference .

[Mr Ore]

Slightly disappointing, havent seen any of this any where. Hoped they would show it at Rye in the KOC final the bikes where there but no action.

Seemed odd not having them race around.

Nothing said at the time but what was the second half race between Ben Morley and Tyson Nelson about? Certainly Nelson's bike with the huge handlebars looked a bit unusual or maybe he had just put them on a regular machine which, without the covers either; made it look different from the norm. .

[Alan_Jones]

Nothing said at the time but what was the second half race between Ben Morley and Tyson Nelson about? Certainly Nelson's bike with the huge handlebars looked a bit unusual or maybe he had just put them on a regular machine which, without the covers either; made it look different from the norm. .

 

It was a new bike he was testing.

[Bream]

Eh, how about not tuning those engines? In amateur speedway old Jawa 884 last for a life time. Engine parts are silly cheap compared to mx-engines. Funny to hear flat track guys saying that mx-engines are better and last for ever. So does speedway engine if you use full throttle only when you are going straight line. In mx you dont use full throttle for long times without gearing up or braking. And when you ride mx on the top level, full throttle when ever it is possible.. engines are tuned in every possible way and are rebuilt after every race.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Eh, how about not tuning those engines? In amateur speedway old Jawa 884 last for a life time. Engine parts are silly cheap compared to mx-engines. Funny to hear flat track guys saying that mx-engines are better and last for ever. So does speedway engine if you use full throttle only when you are going straight line. In mx you dont use full throttle for long times without gearing up or braking. And when you ride mx on the top level, full throttle when ever it is possible.. engines are tuned in every possible way and are rebuilt after every race.

a couple of my friends ride motox and they ride 450s and they do blow up quite alot. Any engine used like a speedway engine at max revs will blow up ,dosent matter if its made by honda or rolls royce or whoever and to say these motox engine will last without any blow ups is false. As said a jawa or gm or any engine will last a season without service if your just pootling round

[Mr Ore]

It was a new bike he was testing.

Thanks.

[Ray Stadia]

a couple of my friends ride motox and they ride 450s and they do blow up quite alot. Any engine used like a speedway engine at max revs will blow up ,dosent matter if its made by honda or rolls royce or whoever and to say these motox engine will last without any blow ups is false. As said a jawa or gm or any engine will last a season without service if your just pootling round

Depends what you call 'pootling around'. A Jawa/GM will last longer on grass track, as it is a different discipline, but would not accuse grass trackers of 'pootling'. And MotoX is different as the bike is running for a far longer period of time. Yes much of that time the revs are not on the limit, but a wet meeting or a sand track and the revs will be up. However, unless Honda/Kawasaki/Yamaha or whoever, are onside and willing to supply just engines without complications, it is unlikely to work. It would be more 'healthy' if GM/Jawa and the tuners produced a proper budget 'trainer/NL' version of their engines.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

 

Depends what you call 'pootling around'. A Jawa/GM will last longer on grass track, as it is a different discipline, but would not accuse grass trackers of 'pootling'. And MotoX is different as the bike is running for a far longer period of time. Yes much of that time the revs are not on the limit, but a wet meeting or a sand track and the revs will be up. However, unless Honda/Kawasaki/Yamaha or whoever, are onside and willing to supply just engines without complications, it is unlikely to work. It would be more 'healthy' if GM/Jawa and the tuners produced a proper budget 'trainer/NL' version of their engines.

i my personal opinion the honda ktm etc is not the way forward . The way forward is for someone to get jrm to make a budget speedway engine thats just for brirish speedway. Its cheap and you can only use the parts by that manufacutuer which are standard. They could even use the design for the ice engine that they currently make which is a 2valve and make the adjustments for speedway but had anybody got the will to make this happen ? I doubt it but i know one promotor did put this idea forward 5years ago but it never happend

[Long Eye]

As said a jawa or gm or any engine will last a season without service if your just pootling round

 

And isn't it supposed to be beginners that these bikes are aimed at? Don't think I've seen any beginners ride full gas for 4 laps so like you I can't see the advantage of these bikes. it would be interesting to see them tested by some good riders independently though.

[Tsunami]

And isn't it supposed to be beginners that these bikes are aimed at? Don't think I've seen any beginners ride full gas for 4 laps so like you I can't see the advantage of these bikes. it would be interesting to see them tested by some good riders independently though.

 

Nor do you see young up and coming riders buying brand new engines, but of course this problem would lessen as the new engines became 'old' ones.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

 

 

And isn't it supposed to be beginners that these bikes are aimed at? Don't think I've seen any beginners ride full gas for 4 laps so like you I can't see the advantage of these bikes. it would be interesting to see them tested by some good riders independently though.

you can get old jawa laydown engines for peanuts but unfortunatly the new breed of up and comings insist on the latest offset GM bike with monster stickers and a joker throttle and they cant even slide the bike but they insist on waisting money and for that reason i cant see them wanting to buy or ride an f2bike because thats not what holder/hancock or gollob are riding and in their head thats what matters

 

 

. it would be interesting to see them tested by some good riders independently though.

2 were used in the buxton air fence meeting by aidan and les collins .they were not far off the pace although on a big fast track i think they would be lost

[Ray Stadia]

you can get old jawa laydown engines for peanuts but unfortunatly the new breed of up and comings insist on the latest offset GM bike with monster stickers and a joker throttle and they cant even slide the bike but they insist on waisting money and for that reason i cant see them wanting to buy or ride an f2bike because thats not what holder/hancock or gollob are riding and in their head thats what matters

 

2 were used in the buxton air fence meeting by aidan and les collins .they were not far off the pace although on a big fast track i think they would be lost

At the end of the day, you are dealing with the lower end of speedway. Sure, it would be difficult to regulate and restrict the top end of speedway, but those starting out and NL riders can be regulated. You can insist the riders and their fathers adhere to a restriction on engine tuning and special internal parts. If need be, do random dyno testing, whatever it takes. But if you can't control the bottom end (excuse the pun) you have no chance of controlling the top end. Edited October 18, 2013 by Ray Stadia

[Bream]

Also, to cut down expenses I dont see any point in using KTM, Kawasaki, Honda.. they are expensive to buy for first. If you buy a used thumper engine you have to take it to parts and check out everything because mx bike goes around the track for ages without any maintenance. Usually titanium valves or seats are gone because sand through dirty air filter. Gear box sprockets are worn/damaged. Clutch baskets are worn and will start to drag when you rev the bike at the start line.

 

Ways of tuning modern 450s are endless so. You can get computer programs to adjust your CDI box. Of course old school porting, high comp. pistons, cams.. cant see this cutting down expenses. When you want to ride real speedway you have to get all new gear.

 

Anyways, one thing that is ? for me. How does carbs like Keihin FCR with acceleration pumps work in speedway? Can you use a carb without one with normal CDI box that is connected to carb with position censor? Almost all new 450 engines have injectors those are very interesting also.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Bream

[Vince]

Also, to cut down expenses I dont see any point in using KTM, Kawasaki, Honda.. they are expensive to buy for first. If you buy a used thumper engine you have to take it to parts and check out everything because mx bike goes around the track for ages without any maintenance. Usually titanium valves or seats are gone because sand through dirty air filter. Gear box sprockets are worn/damaged. Clutch baskets are worn and will start to drag when you rev the bike at the start line.

 

Ways of tuning modern 450s are endless so. You can get computer programs to adjust your CDI box. Of course old school porting, high comp. pistons, cams.. cant see this cutting down expenses. When you want to ride real speedway you have to get all new gear.

 

Anyways, one thing that is ? for me. How does carbs like Keihin FCR with acceleration pumps work in speedway? Can you use a carb without one with normal CDI box that is connected to carb with position censor? Almost all new 450 engines have injectors those are very interesting also.

 

Isn't that the point? How many lads have bought supposedly good Speedway engines that have fallen apart within a couple of days practice? I have also seen more than one newcomer to the sport wash their bore because they don't know about laydown engines flooding. Given that they are new to the sport that'll be a complete rebuild with minimum new piston and recoated barrel if they are lucky and get the right guy to do the motor, if they are unlucky and get the wrong guy it could be double the price they paid for the engine. Secondhand stuff whether MX or Speedway is a bit of a minefield and it's easy for even experienced mechanics to buy a pup.

 

I would also question your statement that MX parts are more expensive than their Speedway equivalent. I fairly recently bought a complete crankshaft and conrod ready assembled for my YZ450 for £211. The crankshaft in there was genuine as was the rod and big end so very likely had never been replaced. None of it was past it's useful life and could be refitted and that's on a bike that has over 170 hours on it, even a weiss big end bearing wouldnt do 5% of that! Admittedly it's 3 years since I bought any Jawa parts but that would have only bought a rod and big end bearing at that time. Pistons are between £110 and £160 depending on make so the top end stuff is about on par with Jawa, main bearings are expensive on a YZ at about £20 dearer than Jawa but most mx bikes are about the same. Valve train components are broadly similar in price.

 

There are plenty of standard 450 engines running at British Championship level and not getting rebuilt every meeting (250's are a different matter!). Go to any deep sand track and you will hear MX engines working harder than they ever will on a Speedway track and they will be doing so for up to 100 minutes racing per day. The idea that they won't last if they are being revved hard on a Speedway track is misleading because they have built in rev limiters. These engines are used in Enduro's, Hare and Hounds, beach races and even Desert racing where they are wide open for longer than they ever will be on a Speedway track. At the level these bikes are intended for their standard service interval is about 25 hours or 900 races.

 

Why would you not just run an FCR carb with a standard CDI?

 

I wouldn't disagree that a standard 884 will last a long time in the hands of amateur or novice riders, if they learn to do basic servicing themselves then it would be low cost. There are way too many riders who can't even adjust tappets. There is still a lot more maintenance time on a Speedway bike than a MX bike where you don't strip clutches and carbs every meeting. I'm not convinced that F2 is the way forward either but what is happening now isn't working so something needs to change.

[Bream]

I ment that 450 mx bike goes around the track for ages in hands of an amateur. Most guys ride them like a bus. Brrrr.. brööp! Brrr.. 2-3 gear and half throttle. 250s are different story. I have to change a piston again on my own. Sand tracks makes me almost sad when listening how my KTM screams just to survive.

 

Speedway maintenance is about 2h per bike after training/race? That is much, you have to be motivated to ride speedway. But speedway is very much a sport that you are into it or not. It is not like motocross that you can go and ride for fun few times a month. In speedway, you put everything in it. It can take everything from you every time ride it. I dont see the expenses as the reason. More like people are not into stuff so much. You need to be a kind of special for speedway. There is a lot of riders in a sport like motocross that is 3 times more expensive that speedway.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Bream

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

 

 

 

I wouldn't disagree that a standard 884 will last a long time in the hands of amateur or novice riders, if they learn to do basic servicing themselves then it would be low cost. There are way too many riders who can't even adjust tappets.

this has been my point in previous posts. I would say that 90% of novices think anodized rims are more important than a clean air filter.