F2 Speedway - Any Views?

[Vince]

When I was a yoof I had a Honda CR250 engined grasser. That was a lot more expensive to run than any of my GMs or Jawas and more labour intensive.

 

But I bet you were running it on dope so end up with the worst of both worlds!

 

On Sunday we did a flattrack practice at Rye House, it was an open track practice so we could go on and off track as we pleased. I shared my bike with my son and would guess that we put something around 200 laps in between us. We are running a pace that would be about 4 or 5 seconds off PL race times so a decent speed for amateur Speedway. Maintenance consisted of checking the water level a couple of times and topping up with fuel once. Within 90 minutes of arriving home the bike was washed, oil changed and air filter replaced so apart from changing the rear tyre it's ready for the next outing. That is the same number of laps that have Speedway riders sending motors off to be serviced, nobody would dare put that many laps on a Speedway engine in 4 hours. I have a little mechanical knowledge and take about 40 minutes to shim valve clearances (including stripping and replacing the parts needed to get to them), done it twice on my bike in the past 2 years and it only actually needed adjusting once. No more technical than cleaning and adjusting a Blixt which you do every meeting as a Speedway rider.

 

I do think there is a place for these bikes. If there were several in the system somebody new to the sport can turn up and do as many laps as they want without worrying about how much wear they are putting on the engine. They are around Speedway pits and bikes, learning for later without finding out the hard way that forgetting to pull the bike back on TDC can cost you £500. By the time they get on a full blooded Speedway bike they have learned their craft without frightening themselves stupid, Speedway bikes these days are a handful for anybody let alone beginners. They won't be put off by the constant maintenance for little riding time that is the lot of the Speedway rider. Some will move on to mainstream Speedway because they have the will and ability to progress. You could have them at training schools where bikes could be shared between riders and they could have a class at amateur meetings for starters.

 

If you see these bikes being ridden it is Speedway exactly as you know it not something similar but the real thing. It has to be worth a look simply because the way things are currently isn't getting people into the sport.

[skthecat]

Surely, the extreme engine costs are down to riders demanding every last ounce of power out of the motors? Motors being tuned to within an inch of their life, just for rhe extra mile an hour and/or extra half metre off the start line......

 

Why not ban tuning in any shape or form at the lower levels? So everyone is on the same standard of engine....? Maybe only allow tuned motors in Elite League and above?

 

Would that not make it cheaper at the right end of the sports ladder......

 

Surely a GM/JRM motor would last considerably longer if left as "out of the box" condition...

 

[speedibee]

Surely, the extreme engine costs are down to riders demanding every last ounce of power out of the motors? Motors being tuned to within an inch of their life, just for rhe extra mile an hour and/or extra half metre off the start line......

 

Why not ban tuning in any shape or form at the lower levels? So everyone is on the same standard of engine....? Maybe only allow tuned motors in Elite League and above?

 

Would that not make it cheaper at the right end of the sports ladder......

 

Surely a GM/JRM motor would last considerably longer if left as "out of the box" condition...

Most Gm's and jawa's would last forever in out of the box condition because they wouldn't run , The main problem with any solution as far as expense goes seems to be that the riders and supporters want to see costs cut , but those who are actually running the sport are not interested . the promoters seem to be in their own little bubble and despite the best efforts of some to see lower costs they are largely ignored by the people who could facilitate it , I give you the SCB removing the ban on titanium that had been in place for 40 years , it was put in place to stop riders/tuners using hyper expensive engine parts to gain a small advantage and when everyone is talking about cutting costs they bring it back into use ,

[Ray Stadia]

Most Gm's and jawa's would last forever in out of the box condition because they wouldn't run

Maybe that is where the problem lies, the engines are sent over needing a tuner to finish off the job. Surely this adds an extra layer of cost? Also, from experience, if you strip these engines down, there are no timing marks to help with reassembly. The internal workings and setting up are almost a trade secret!

[speedibee]

Maybe that is where the problem lies, the engines are sent over needing a tuner to finish off the job. Surely this adds an extra layer of cost? Also, from experience, if you strip these engines down, there are no timing marks to help with reassembly. The internal workings and setting up are almost a trade secret!

Most of my boys engines have timing marks Ray , engraved on the flywheels and viewed through a small window , it is true about the extra layer of cost though , brand new £2.500 after tuning £6,000 , some of the biggest tuning conmen add their own valves etc so even if you are capable of servicing your own engine they can still rob you on spares

[Ray Stadia]

Most of my boys engines have timing marks Ray , engraved on the flywheels and viewed through a small window , it is true about the extra layer of cost though , brand new £2.500 after tuning £6,000 , some of the biggest tuning conmen add their own valves etc so even if you are capable of servicing your own engine they can still rob you on spares

I have a Jawa 897, which I have had apart and yes, there are marks on the flywheel, but not on the pinions and camshaft chain wheels. I marked it up myself, but without doing that you would need dials etc. For as long as the 'engine manufacturers', are in the back pocket of the tuners and vice versa, things will not change. Mind you is it engine manufacturer, i.e. GM only now, which really, are just engine casing forgers, with a bit of machining. Therefore, the name GM means nothing, as the tuner has probably created as much as 50% of the engine.

[speedibee]

I have a Jawa 897, which I have had apart and yes, there are marks on the flywheel, but not on the pinions and camshaft chain wheels. I marked it up myself, but without doing that you would need dials etc. For as long as the 'engine manufacturers', are in the back pocket of the tuners and vice versa, things will not change. Mind you is it engine manufacturer, i.e. GM only now, which really, are just engine casing forgers, with a bit of machining. Therefore, the name GM means nothing, as the tuner has probably created as much as 50% of the engine.

I see which marks you mean now , they are most likely not marked at the top end because different people prefer different settings .

[Ray Stadia]

I see which marks you mean now , they are most likely not marked at the top end because different people prefer different settings .

I think the timing differences are mainly between different cams, but what is interesting, is we are falling into the trap of 'you can't have a standard engine, with standard settings etc, because riders have different requirements'. Maybe the top boys need a special set up, but those at the bottom end could work with a standard 'out of the box' engine, no special cams, flywheels, conrods etc and start to hone their skills, which is what F2 is trying to achieve, I believe.

[skthecat]

 

I think the timing differences are mainly between different cams, but what is interesting, is we are falling into the trap of 'you can't have a standard engine, with standard settings etc, because riders have different requirements'. Maybe the top boys need a special set up, but those at the bottom end could work with a standard 'out of the box' engine, no special cams, flywheels, conrods etc and start to hone their skills, which is what F2 is trying to achieve, I believe.

 

Has this always been the case? (Engines from factory just bits in a box) when purchased? Or is this a relatively recent scenario?

Cheers

Never to Old

[Ray Stadia]

Has this always been the case? (Engines from factory just bits in a box) when purchased? Or is this a relatively recent scenario?

Cheers

Never to Old

I remember being told this as far back as 1985'ish, when GM's were abound! I have to say, I was shocked then! A well known tuner told me. But all said and done, that is still fine for those who can afford it, but for the newbies/starters, yes they can buy old secondhand engines, but perhaps there should be a cheaper, 'off the shelf' alternative for the beginners and lower NL division?

[speedibee]

But I bet you were running it on dope so end up with the worst of both worlds!

 

On Sunday we did a flattrack practice at Rye House, it was an open track practice so we could go on and off track as we pleased. I shared my bike with my son and would guess that we put something around 200 laps in between us. We are running a pace that would be about 4 or 5 seconds off PL race times so a decent speed for amateur Speedway. Maintenance consisted of checking the water level a couple of times and topping up with fuel once. Within 90 minutes of arriving home the bike was washed, oil changed and air filter replaced so apart from changing the rear tyre it's ready for the next outing. That is the same number of laps that have Speedway riders sending motors off to be serviced, nobody would dare put that many laps on a Speedway engine in 4 hours. I have a little mechanical knowledge and take about 40 minutes to shim valve clearances (including stripping and replacing the parts needed to get to them), done it twice on my bike in the past 2 years and it only actually needed adjusting once. No more technical than cleaning and adjusting a Blixt which you do every meeting as a Speedway rider.

 

I do think there is a place for these bikes. If there were several in the system somebody new to the sport can turn up and do as many laps as they want without worrying about how much wear they are putting on the engine. They are around Speedway pits and bikes, learning for later without finding out the hard way that forgetting to pull the bike back on TDC can cost you £500. By the time they get on a full blooded Speedway bike they have learned their craft without frightening themselves stupid, Speedway bikes these days are a handful for anybody let alone beginners. They won't be put off by the constant maintenance for little riding time that is the lot of the Speedway rider. Some will move on to mainstream Speedway because they have the will and ability to progress. You could have them at training schools where bikes could be shared between riders and they could have a class at amateur meetings for starters.

 

If you see these bikes being ridden it is Speedway exactly as you know it not something similar but the real thing. It has to be worth a look simply because the way things are currently isn't getting people into the sport.

been there seen those not impressed , and it is definitely not speedway . similar to short track which of course is an entirely different sport to speedway

[Vince]

been there seen those not impressed , and it is definitely not speedway . similar to short track which of course is an entirely different sport to speedway

 

I am not sure if you are fishing or if in your haste to whine about short track you expose your lack of understanding how bikes are ridden.

 

I have seen quite a lot of these F2 bikes and have yet to see them ridden like a shorttrack bike, of course that would be impossible given that one has a brake and the other doesn't. The F2 is most definitely a 'proper' Speedway bike and is ridden as such. In fact those who lament the passing of the 2 valve Jap's and Jawa's will love these bikes as they are ridden in a similar style to which they were rather than the super aggressive style of modern Speedway. However it is 100% Speedway.

 

Shorttrack is a completely different sport as you rightly point out. However as they use the same engines and ancillaries as these F2 bikes in similar circumstances the reliability comparison seems valid to me.

[skthecat]

Had a close-up look at these bikes in the pits at Leicester on Saturdays MDLRC meeting... From what I saw, there seems an awful lot of wiring showing that could be vounerable to damage from water and/or crashing, would that lot be replaced by a single loom on an actual finished racing model? Also the radiator looks vounerable, just to stone damage?

The bikes were ridden by Les & Aiden Collins who haven't lost there speedway skills at all and the bikes seemed to behave as you would expect a pro-speedway bike (on track) with a similar sound level to boot. They did ride them with rear shod short track tyres, which although very expensive (4 times the price of a speedway rear tyre) will last for around 10 meetings which makes tyre spend significantly reduced compared to traditional speedway rear tyres!

I don't remember if any lap times were given out, as you don't hear so well from the centre green sometimes..

 

I think this experiment is worth continuing, but I also think the idea of running a lower league on bog standard, non-tuner touched speedway engines would also be worth exploring, as this would be easier to then modify/tune when stepping up to a higher echelon of speedway....

[Speedball]

I was fortunate enough to be asked to take part in an end of season speedway podcast with KL team manager Rob Lyon by one of our local papers (EDP).

 

One of the topics covered was speed of bikes etc and I asked Rob about F2. He's very much in favour of the development, especially for young riders.

 

You can listen to the full podcast via http://www.edp24.co....f_two_1_2819611 if anyone is interested.

 

From memory I think it's in the "Ask Rob" section around about the middle of the podcast (if you don't want all the chat about the Stars season).

Edited September 30, 2013 by Speedball

[speedibee]

I am not sure if you are fishing or if in your haste to whine about short track you expose your lack of understanding how bikes are ridden.

 

I have seen quite a lot of these F2 bikes and have yet to see them ridden like a shorttrack bike, of course that would be impossible given that one has a brake and the other doesn't. The F2 is most definitely a 'proper' Speedway bike and is ridden as such. In fact those who lament the passing of the 2 valve Jap's and Jawa's will love these bikes as they are ridden in a similar style to which they were rather than the super aggressive style of modern Speedway. However it is 100% Speedway.

 

Shorttrack is a completely different sport as you rightly point out. However as they use the same engines and ancillaries as these F2 bikes in similar circumstances the reliability comparison seems valid to me.

Oh Sorry folks . I was completely mistaken , In my haste to whine about short track/ flat track I exposed my complete lack of knowledge of the way different sorts of motorbikes are ridden round a shale oval ,.you would think being involved in speedway for over 30 years I would at least have learned the basics but hey ho apparently not , and also it appears that l no longer have the ability to see something and make a judgement on it even when the people whose company I am in at the time have exactly the same opinion , so I must apologize , not only for myself but the 8 -10 others who thought the f2 bikes at Leicester speedway on Saturday were anything less than 100% speedway

[Vince]

Perhaps your 30 years experience of riding, watching or whatever will allow you to explain how an F2 Speedway bike with no brakes was ridden shorttrack style where they brake into the corner. Completely different style of riding, you might not have liked F2 Speedway but it wasn't ridden like a shorttrack bike.

 

There have been quite a lot of riders and ex riders watch these bikes when I have been present over the past couple of years and until your post I have never known anybody comment that it wasn't 'proper' Speedway. Les Collins has a bit of Speedway knowledge, apparently his family have been around the sport a while! he seems to think it's Speedway and a good idea. Surely you would understand why I would value his opinion, especially considering that he has ridden the bikes, way above yours.

 

There are some valid questions about availability of engines and possible vulnerability of radiators and so on that need answering (my opinion is that availability could be an issue, radiators and wiring are a lot tougher than they look, MX bikes take some big hits without falling apart). However something needs to change because as things stand nowhere near enough kids have any interest on getting on a Speedway bike.

 

Pete Seaton (another bloke who has been around and knows a lot about Speedway) has put a hell of a lot of time and effort into something that he sees as the way forward. It may or may not be but it deserves a bit of sensible discussion rather than being written off after a quick look by somebody who appears to be anti just about everything. At the very least Pete is trying his best to do something positive.

[foamfence]

Has this always been the case? (Engines from factory just bits in a box) when purchased? Or is this a relatively recent scenario?

Cheers

Never to Old

Not "Never too old"?

[Guest]

Oh Sorry folks . I was completely mistaken , In my haste to whine about short track/ flat track I exposed my complete lack of knowledge of the way different sorts of motorbikes are ridden round a shale oval ,.you would think being involved in speedway for over 30 years I would at least have learned the basics but hey ho apparently not , and also it appears that l no longer have the ability to see something and make a judgement on it even when the people whose company I am in at the time have exactly the same opinion , so I must apologize , not only for myself but the 8 -10 others who thought the f2 bikes at Leicester speedway on Saturday were anything less than 100% speedway

 

This will again clarify what F2 Speedway has to offer.

http://formula2speedway.com/

May I offer this someone first involved with speedway in 1946 and rode speedway bikes between 1955 and 1960 - not at competitive level but at many practice sessions? But I don't use that to claim "I am an expert" far from it because I accept that we can always learn something new.

[Ray Stadia]

This will again clarify what F2 Speedway has to offer.

http://formula2speedway.com/

May I offer this someone first involved with speedway in 1946 and rode speedway bikes between 1955 and 1960 - not at competitive level but at many practice sessions? But I don't use that to claim "I am an expert" far from it because I accept that we can always learn something new.

Due to some short track meetings using speedway tracks, there will always be this spat that short track is not speedway and it isn't! It is more like a moto X bike going round a speedway track, different techniques etc. However, for me, the 'pilots' aboard the bikes have my respect whether it is flat track, GM speedway or F2 speedway.

[Guest]

Due to some short track meetings using speedway tracks, there will always be this spat that short track is not speedway and it isn't! It is more like a moto X bike going round a speedway track, different techniques etc. However, for me, the 'pilots' aboard the bikes have my respect whether it is flat track, GM speedway or F2 speedway.

 

I don't think that short track does claim to be speedway any more than grass track racing does. And let's remember that in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, that sidecars, sprint cars and midget cars are recognised as being speedway.