F2 Speedway - Any Views?

[Vince]

 

vince you say the parts last longer, but why is this, surely conrods/pistons etc are made of the same materials regardless of the sport, if not why not, if it is due to petrol being used and not methanol, surely it would be of more benefit to everyone to look at petrol again (i know it was tried before),then riders would not have to just dump there current equipment and start again, an expense thast would put many out of the sport as you would have no market to sell your gm/jawa to.

 

 

Manufacturing tolerences, water cooling, much lower compression ratios and mainly 50bhp instead of 75bhp. The Japanese are producing hundreds of thousands of these units and their customers would in no way accept engines with the lifespan of a Speedway engine. Neither do they need/ want the outright power so that is the trade off. As far as I am aware the idea is to have a formula that allows a cheaper and easier route into the sport rather than replacing what is already there. Presumably if they were ever to be bought into any of the leagues it would be a long term and gradual change

[ford]

i do see why this is being looked at and fully agree with the prospect of major manufacturers coming into the sport, something that has been tried in the past, speedway was seen by honda as a minority sport when speedway was pretty big still. but getting back to the engines, the rules would have to be changed totally, petrol, gearboxes, wet clutch as opposed to dry etc, i know not hard to do but many are saying bring it into nl now, so what does the lad doubling into pl have to do have one of these and his usual speedway bikes for pl, that makes it expensive.

 

vince you say the parts last longer, but why is this, surely conrods/pistons etc are made of the same materials regardless of the sport, if not why not, if it is due to petrol being used and not methanol, surely it would be of more benefit to everyone to look at petrol again (i know it was tried before),then riders would not have to just dump there current equipment and start again, an expense thast would put many out of the sport as you would have no market to sell your gm/jawa to.

 

again sorry for my original negativty and i am reading what everyone is saying, but it seems very kneejerk, and cant see that it will help speedway in its current state, which is primarily down to lack of crowds due to poor promotion/poor stadia (not always speedway promotions fault).

i dont believe it will bring more riders into the sport either, this can only be done with tracks and tracktime being more available to those that want to try it.

 

A Kawasaki KHF450 has a stroke of 62.1 mm and a rev limiter at 11500rpm

Which equates to a piston speed of 23.80 metres per second

 

A GM speedway engine has a stroke of 78.5 mm and has no rev limiter and will easily rev to 13000 rpm Which equates to a piston speed of 34 metres per second.

 

For a GM to have the same stress on it’s components as a KHF 450 it should only be allowed to rev at 9500 rpm, so why not have rev limiter’s on the GM’s.

[SCB]

A Kawasaki KHF450 has a stroke of 62.1 mm and a rev limiter at 11500rpm

Which equates to a piston speed of 23.80 metres per second

 

A GM speedway engine has a stroke of 78.5 mm and has no rev limiter and will easily rev to 13000 rpm Which equates to a piston speed of 34 metres per second.

 

For a GM to have the same stress on it’s components as a KHF 450 it should only be allowed to rev at 9500 rpm, so why not have rev limiter’s on the GM’s.

I thought rev limiters were being developed for British speedway?

[ford]

I thought rev limiters were being developed for British speedway?

 

I've heard that too, but it's all gone a bit quite anyone know any thing

[Ray Stadia]

I really wish I could but I have a prior engagement then. :sad:

Sounds like you are onto a promise TWK! Have fun!

[speedibee]

I've heard that too, but it's all gone a bit quite anyone know any thing

They decided to help to cut costs by allowing the use of titanium after it being banned for many years , the primary advantage of titanium parts at 3 times the cost of normal alloy ,Is lighter weight allowing the engine to rev more , be a bit silly to bring in a rule which means expensive parts make engines rev more only to thwart them with a rev limiter . a total waste of money for the riders , The SCB are far too clever to let that happen !!!

[speedibee]

Manufacturing tolerences, water cooling, much lower compression ratios and mainly 50bhp instead of 75bhp. The Japanese are producing hundreds of thousands of these units and their customers would in no way accept engines with the lifespan of a Speedway engine. Neither do they need/ want the outright power so that is the trade off. As far as I am aware the idea is to have a formula that allows a cheaper and easier route into the sport rather than replacing what is already there. Presumably if they were ever to be bought into any of the leagues it would be a long term and gradual change

If you think lower BHP is the answer , and will lead to less servicing reduced cost increased engine lifespan , then the answer is already out there without the need for any experimentation and its associated costs , two valve Jawa's and Jap,s will do nicely ,

[Vince]

A 2v Jawa or a JAP is still a very high compression engine with huge flywheels that vibrate, they do so at lower revs which could allow a little more reliability if modern manufacturing was bought into play. They were never anywhere near as reliable as a modern Japanese engine in any case. You would still be cleaning carbs and stripping clutches every meeting as well, the idea is to have something that needs minimal maintenance for newcomers to the sport.

 

The power reduction is because of the way the engine is built to provide reliability not the other way around.

[robolots]

I can't really see this happening IF it is a way of getting into the sport cheaply etc etc. There are no engines readily available, there are no frames really readily available, the engines I agree will need less servicing, but not that much less overall and all the ancillary components will push the price up-look at the cost of a new decent mx rad.

Then what will happen is people will want to go faster, so you just start the tuning cycle again which happens in EVERY form of motorsport as the goal is to win-the price starts going up and up.

I have seen these bikes a few times and tbh I was surprised that the riders managed to stay on it!!

 

If however it is an alternative form of speedway not an alternative to speedway, then good luck with it and I hope it goes well. Just don't keep pretending that it is a cheaper form of speedway as it quite clearly isn't.

Edited September 23, 2013 by robolots

[Ray Stadia]

Using different engines is nothing new in the Grass Track world, which is not a million miles away from Speedway. Over the years, I have seen many engines used, particularly in the 250 cc and 350 cc class. Engines, such as BSA Gold Star, 350 cc and 500 cc, running methanol. BSA 250 cc C15 engines and many Motocross engines. The engines have been used with much success, particularly in the 250 cc class. I think with Speedway supporters, nothing other than a 500 cc, air cooled, methanol burning single cylinder engine with countershaft will do and ideally, lubricated with castor oil!

[Long Eye]

Using different engines is nothing new in the Grass Track world, which is not a million miles away from Speedway. Over the years, I have seen many engines used, particularly in the 250 cc and 350 cc class. Engines, such as BSA Gold Star, 350 cc and 500 cc, running methanol. BSA 250 cc C15 engines and many Motocross engines. The engines have been used with much success, particularly in the 250 cc class. I think with Speedway supporters, nothing other than a 500 cc, air cooled, methanol burning single cylinder engine with countershaft will do and ideally, lubricated with castor oil!

 

When I was a yoof I had a Honda CR250 engined grasser. That was a lot more expensive to run than any of my GMs or Jawas and more labour intensive.

[Ray Stadia]

When I was a yoof I had a Honda CR250 engined grasser. That was a lot more expensive to run than any of my GMs or Jawas and more labour intensive.

Japanese spares and especially Motocross spares have always been expensive. I had a Honda 250 Motocross bike in the late 80's and the big end went, cost a lot of money for new barrel, piston etc etc. However, my mate had exactly the same bike, had no problems at all. Sometimes bad luck creeps in.

[Long Eye]

Japanese spares and especially Motocross spares have always been expensive. I had a Honda 250 Motocross bike in the late 80's and the big end went, cost a lot of money for new barrel, piston etc etc. However, my mate had exactly the same bike, had no problems at all. Sometimes bad luck creeps in.

 

Honda CRF 450 piston and cylinder plus gaskets, 1124 quid. Same parts for a GM would be around 650 quid.

[Ray Stadia]

Honda CRF 450 piston and cylinder plus gaskets, 1124 quid. Same parts for a GM would be around 650 quid.

Oh well, back to the drawing board then, for those who want to reduce the cost of Speedway!

[yahoho]

I absolutely love this idea! Looks great - but still expensive, just not as much.

 

Honestly I don't know why everyone keeps looking at race engines. I know it sounds stupid but Moto-x engines have a lifespan of hours, they require regular maintenance just the same as speedway bikes. They are built for a purpose and that purpose is to perform extremely well for short periods.

 

I personally don't believe the problem lies with cost, but with "how to get started". I have been riding myself now for over 10 years and I cannot do more than 6 meetings a year without travelling huge distances just for 8 minutes riding / practice.

 

If you want to get more people into the sport, you have to open the door. Its as simple as that. While there are only a handful of tracks opening their gates to clubs for practice sessions, and 1/2 training schools for youngsters that are more of a "one off - come and try it" type affair, rather than regularly run weekly / monthly club - kids and even the older riders simply arent going to be able to get involved.

 

Norwich have a junior grasstrack club - that is what is needed with speedway. Speedway Clubs organising, or allowing the organisation of - regular bi-weekly speedway clubs.

 

[Guest]

 

Norwich have a junior grasstrack club - that is what is needed with speedway. Speedway Clubs organising, or allowing the organisation of - regular bi-weekly speedway clubs.

 

 

I am sure local residents will welcome the move as well as the weekly (in season) speedway meetings.

[greyhoundp]

I am sure local residents will welcome the move as well as the weekly (in season) speedway meetings.

 

Gustix you have gathered a lot of experience over the years about Speedway, i often read your posts, some are reasonably interesting, however i do notice you comment negatively on certain suggestions/ideas put forward by others , why dont you instead put the knowledge you have gained over the years into not only commenting negatively, but into suggesting ways around the suggestions/ideas that you believe to be not workable, it appears you have many hours available to yourself sitting on your keyboard, so try to be a little more positive towards suggestions others make, you never know some of your alternatives might be unworkable also, but a combination of various suggestions, just might be.

[pete cc]

sorry folks but, you lost me with all your techno know how 2 pages ago. Is there an answer?

[speedibee]

sorry folks but, you lost me with all your techno know how 2 pages ago. Is there an answer?

The short answer is No .. but we are debating / suggesting different ways of making speedway engines cheaper to maintain , While some favour the use of motocross engines ( which in more than not of peoples opinion would be more expensive ) some favour retaining the traditional engine but with modifications to reduce the power and subsequently the cost of maintenance , speedway engines are simple single cylinder overhead cam ,that basicly anyone with a Haynes manual and a little mechanical know how could strip and rebuild , putting aside of course all the bull sh!t spouted by tuners who are trying to proliferate the mysteries so as to justify their huge bills , motocross engines are significantly more complex not least because there is a gearbox involved but shim and bucket valve settings ,which of course those pro MX engines will say need very little maintenance but anyone with a little mechanical knowledge will know that is a complete fallacy . The use of engines manufactured by the big japanese firms certainly does open up sponsorship opportunities and would slightly more align speedway with the mainstream motorcycle sports . and with todays technology Cnc machining etc making short batch runs possible I think there may be a compromise situation that could suit both ends ,, a pair of narrow crank cases without gearbox in the traditional speedway style with the top end from a japanese enduro bike , specialised engine but with the nametag of big Jap manufacturer running on high street fuel and oil .

[Ray Stadia]

The short answer is No .. but we are debating / suggesting different ways of making speedway engines cheaper to maintain , While some favour the use of motocross engines ( which in more than not of peoples opinion would be more expensive ) some favour retaining the traditional engine but with modifications to reduce the power and subsequently the cost of maintenance , speedway engines are simple single cylinder overhead cam ,that basicly anyone with a Haynes manual and a little mechanical know how could strip and rebuild , putting aside of course all the bull sh!t spouted by tuners who are trying to proliferate the mysteries so as to justify their huge bills , motocross engines are significantly more complex not least because there is a gearbox involved but shim and bucket valve settings ,which of course those pro MX engines will say need very little maintenance but anyone with a little mechanical knowledge will know that is a complete fallacy . The use of engines manufactured by the big japanese firms certainly does open up sponsorship opportunities and would slightly more align speedway with the mainstream motorcycle sports . and with todays technology Cnc machining etc making short batch runs possible I think there may be a compromise situation that could suit both ends ,, a pair of narrow crank cases without gearbox in the traditional speedway style with the top end from a japanese enduro bike , specialised engine but with the nametag of big Jap manufacturer running on high street fuel and oil .

The above is true, but the idea of F2 is for those starting out in Speedway. I know a few people who will buy a brand new MX bike at the beginning of the season, race it for a season and apart from washing the air filter, changing the oil now and again, changing tyres, lubricate the chain and a few other bits and bobs, do nothing else, certainly nothing major, as the engines are reliable. I am talking about riders who are at expert level. No, not professional, but the bike is put through it's paces. At the end of the season, the bike is exchanged for a new one. It really depends whether Speedway wants to reduce costs for everyone, newbies and professionals. If it is just for the newbies, someone like Jawa, GM and dare I say JAP (no longer in existence, but perhaps could restart), build a simple cheap engine, perhaps still 4 valve, but a push rod engine. And an engine easily maintained. If it wants to reduce costs for the professionals, that is going to need more thought and international co-operation, which, in my opinion, will not be easy.