Nl Riders Championship - Rye House 21st September.

[Bagpuss]

Well a great nights racing

 

While I appreciate that you have a product to promote do you really believe that? For me it was a poor night's racing.

[G the Bee]

But this is all opinion and guess work isn't it?? Has anyone actually said they let someone win, even years after an event??

 

Many of riders have gone through the card and won meetings before their last ride and ended up at the back. Doesn't mean they've purposely helped a fellow rider with intention.

 

It's just human nature, already won you then don't try as hard

 

You are right of course. The Sjosten incident is a case in point.

 

In his autobiography Mauger states that he was simply playing it safe, finishing behind a rider he was 'a bit wary' of. However, he does acknowledge the disgruntled Coventry followers. Perhaps he heard my dad!

 

What I was trying to say in my post was the system of qualifiers, a semi and a final limits opportunities for gamesmanship or, just as importantly, giving the impression of gamesmanship.

 

I have edited my previous post to reflect Ivan's views.

Edited September 22, 2013 by G the Bee

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Anyone who believes that the flawed and anachronistic 20 heat format was/is the best way to decide a meeting is, in my opinion, letting misplaced nostalgia cloud their judgement.

Extraordinary comment!

The two big indivs over the last two days shows unquestionably exactly WHY the proper 20 heat formula is the best - and how unnecessary and unfair the semis/Grand Final 'system' is..

At Coventry for the U-19s you had two riders unbeaten on 4 wins apiece meeting in heat 19.. What a climax that would've been. Except because a GF awaited it didn't matter barely a jot who won that race and who was second.

Then come the GF you have the rider who had achieved a 15 point maximum failing to make it six and losing out to a rider who'd scored just 12.

I accept that was the system but it made for a less fair outcome and actually denied the public an exciting climax in the way an indiv meeting SHOULD be dedided.

 

The NLRC thankfully doesn't go for such nonsense. And with heat 20 there again huge drama. Boxall needs to win to force a run off. Up against Blackbird who (despite blatant cheating from a team mate) actually can't now win but could possibly still get second - Blackbird leads and Boxall gets past him in a breathtaking pass (it wasn't a 'rubbish' meeting btw!).

And so two riders tied on 14 and there's a run off which is right and proper but nothing like a manufactured GF.

 

As for the run off , well Lewis tried to pass caughgt Steve's back wheel and the lad himself admitted it was his fault. What a brilliant sporting comment by Lewis who's a credit to himself and the sport. Sadly the antics of the Dudley pair can't be spoken on as falling into the same bracket..

[G the Bee]

Extraordinary comment!

The two big indivs over the last two days shows unquestionably exactly WHY the proper 20 heat formula is the best - and how unnecessary and unfair the semis/Grand Final 'system' is..

At Coventry for the U-19s you had two riders unbeaten on 4 wins apiece meeting in heat 19.. What a climax that would've been. Except because a GF awaited it didn't matter barely a jot who won that race and who was second.

Then come the GF you have the rider who had achieved a 15 point maximum failing to make it six and losing out to a rider who'd scored just 12.

I accept that was the system but it made for a less fair outcome and actually denied the public an exciting climax in the way an indiv meeting SHOULD be dedided.

 

The NLRC thankfully doesn't go for such nonsense. And with heat 20 there again huge drama. Boxall needs to win to force a run off. Up against Blackbird who (despite blatant cheating from a team mate) actually can't now win but could possibly still get second - Blackbird leads and Boxall gets past him in a breathtaking pass (it wasn't a 'rubbish' meeting btw!).

And so two riders tied on 14 and there's a run off which is right and proper but nothing like a manufactured GF.

 

As for the run off , well Lewis tried to pass caughgt Steve's back wheel and the lad himself admitted it was his fault. What a brilliant sporting comment by Lewis who's a credit to himself and the sport. Sadly the antics of the Dudley pair can't be spoken on as falling into the same bracket..

 

Sorry, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but are living in the past.

 

You talk about a climax to a meeting. Surely there can be no better climax to a meeting than keeping the meeting undecided until the final heat! The one flaw in your comment above about Friday at Brandon is that you state the climax to the meeting would have happened in heat 19! With a heat to go! That makes no sense at all. Both riders from heat 19 also appeared in the final anyway, so I struggle to see the point you are making.

 

For all your talk about the Boxall heat last night, that action could have been in heat 17 if the draw had panned out differently. Then you would have potentially had to have sat through 3 more meaningless heats. I don't want to see a meeting decided three heats before the end.

 

You are also overlooking the points I made earlier about possibilities for gamesmanship the 20 heat formula brings up. Opportunities for this are drastically reduced in the 20 heat format followed by semis and a final.

 

In regards to the U19s, the fact is, despite his maximum, Ashley Morris was not the best rider on display on Friday at Brandon. He made some awful gates tbf and always looked like he was going to be up against it if he came to the tapes against the top 4 in the meeting. In the final, Nielsen went off the outside, was the only rider all night to put his back wheel in the dirt whilst the others played it safe and won the final in a new track record! Job done.

 

I'm sorry but the GPs are a far better spectacle than any of the old world finals were. One of the reasons for that is because of the race format. Each heat means something. You are either watching riders fight for maximum points at the top of the leaderboard or fight to get into the semis. Then it starts all over again. Great stuff.

Edited September 22, 2013 by G the Bee

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Pretty thin argument there. Oh dear we've just had a brilliantly exciting heat 19; but curses, now we're going to have to suffer the extreme tedium of an oh-so boring heat 20!! Do you set off to the car after heat 12 when an EL match is decided that early!?

 

Your point about gamesmanship also makes not one iota of sensre. Starke's cheating (gamesmanship's just semantics, it's cheating...) would've benefitted his team mate massively more if they'd been a Grand Final; as it was, it only ruined the chances of two other riders for third place which though I feel for them (especially young Robert), it's not as bad as the thought that the Dudley pair's actions could've had led to Blackbird winning the title itself.

 

I wasn't a Cov on Friday, so I bow to your better judgement but seems a strange comment to put it mildly to say that Morris wasn't the best rider when he completed a 15 points maximum after the 20 heats...!

[G the Bee]

But it was your argument! You were the one that talked about a climax to a meeting. My point was that surely the climax should come at the end!

 

I don't understand the point you are making in your second paragraph. Why would Starke even consider helping his team mate out if they had both qualified for a grand final? Surely Starke would want to win it himself if he was in it!

 

My point was, had the meeting been run under the GP type system, Starke would not have considered helping his team mate out in that heat 15 as he would have been totally focused on getting enough points himself to get into the semis. As he was on 3 points after 3 rides a couple of decent rides in his 4th and 5th could well have seen him through. In the same vein, Blackbird after 3 rides was sitting pretty for the semis anyway, so would not have needed Starke's assistance in the first place!

Edited September 22, 2013 by G the Bee

[Kent Whistle Gang]

Firstly, hearty congratulations to Steve Boxall. Quite simply, he embodies everything I want to see in one of my riders. He is a true gladiator of the sport. Maybe a little rough around the edges when it comes to interacting with the fans but hey, he'll do for me. I can't seem to insert a new line here so I'll just keep typing. Regarding the 'controversies' referred to elsewhere. 1) Starke's actions in letting Blackbird through were disgraceful. Should and could he be punished? Probably, but how? Exclusion was mentioned, but what effect would that have had? He should have been given a public warning and a kick up the backside by Worrall (who was cheated out of a run off for 3rd place) for being a complete prat. 2) Morley turned left on Carr in heat 10 and was quite rightly excluded for it. 3) Dudley fans booing Nielsen? I heard it but, not knowing there was history, didn't understand it. No place for that in this sport though, especially following a fall. That said, I did boo Starke for his transgression. 4) Kerr ran into Boxall and went to ground a bit too easily. For me, he realised he'd been beaten to the first turn and was looking for a rerun. Still can't insert a new line...... I thought the Kent Kings fans were amazing last night. We easily outnumbered any other teams' supporters, we were noisy, good natured, fair minded and oh so loyal (witness the receptions given to Jack Kingston and the non-riding Adam Kirby). 3rd in the Pairs, 2nd in the 4s, 1st in the NLRC. We're just overjoyed to have a proper team to follow again. Just you watch us next season!

[Trees]

So disappointed for Lewis Kerr, sooooooooooo wanted him to beat Boxall who is a veteran when it comes to laps round Rye House! But hey ho that's speedway ..........

 

So no more dogs at Rye, the place could do with a bit of spruce up and what's happened with the fish and chips, no fish left at 6pm, the chips weren't the best and the margarine with a roll ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, had to scrape the stuff off YUK!

 

Only went to watch our boyz, now reinstating my exile The guy on the pit gate, where on earth does he buy those trousers, loved his patent red shoes though LOL

[Bagpuss]

Kerr ran into Boxall and went to ground a bit too easily. For me, he realised he'd been beaten to the first turn and was looking for a rerun.

 

You make some very good points but this one is nonsense.....Lewis simply picked up some unwanted grip and that was that.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

But it was your argument! You were the one that talked about a climax to a meeting. My point was that surely the climax should come at the end!

 

I've never said that the proper 20 heat format necessarily leads to an amazing climax - by definition it's possible it may not. Not every football match ever played or shown on TV is a thrillier to the last minute. It's called sport and it's unpredictable. But to manufacture an exciting finish regardless of what's right in terms of giving the best chance for the best rider to succeed is to abandon the principles of sport for a more show biz approach. Fair enough if that's what you want; but personally I think we should leave the tried and tested format alone and remember it often in any case gives us fantastically exciting meeting conclusions like last night..

[Kent Whistle Gang]

 

 

You make some very good points but this one is nonsense.....Lewis simply picked up some unwanted grip and that was that.

 

Bagpuss, you got me banged to rights. I was only trying to stir up a bit of controversy of my own. Actually, it was a reaction to some earlier posts which suggested that the run-off should have been re-run and that Lewis Kerr was the better rider of the two simply because he had beaten Boxall in an earlier heat. Both clearly complete twaddle. Kerr was generous enough to admit he was at fault so I salute his honesty.

[Mike.Butler]

ok, re 20 heats without a final.. you notice the way the "draw" seems to always provide a heat 20 with 4 likely winners in it? Seems to me that it is actually acknowledged that having meaningless heats 20,19 and even 18 is crap (like some world finals in the past). Even as far back as the 1970's I recall the NLRC draw was manufactured...

Also, by having 4 top riders altogether in 1 heat you are consigning one of them to a zero and potentially knocking one or more of them off the rostrum as the worst gate might mean even if they were actually the best rider they would be unlikely to pass 3 other top riders in the one heat..whereas having a bad gate against lesser riders would offer them the chance t restrict the damage..

Do the promoters think we're so stupid not to have noticed!?

To me if you manufacture the draw to get a finale you might as well just have a heat 21..

 

A final for me every time...

Edited September 23, 2013 by Mike.Butler

[iand]

Apart from Robert Lambert who is not old enough, which riders in the field have not ridden at Premier League level this year? The only one I can name is the winner Steve Boxall.

 

ok, re 20 heats without a final.. you notice the way the "draw" seems to always provide a heat 20 with 4 likely winners in it? Seems to me that it is actually acknowledged that having meaningless heats 20,19 and even 18 is crap (like some world finals in the past). Even as far back as the 1970's I recall the NLRC draw was manufactured...

Also, by having 4 top riders altogether in 1 heat you are consigning one of them to a zero and potentially knocking one or more of them off the rostrum as the worst gate might mean even if they were actually the best rider they would be unlikely to pass 3 other top riders in the one heat..whereas having a bad gate against lesser riders would offer them the chance t restrict the damage..

Do the promoters think we're so stupid not to have noticed!?

To me if you manufacture the draw to get a finale you might as well just have a heat 21..

 

A final for me every time...

I remember a NLRC championship when the123 all came from the 1st heat. I think Benji Compton won that year.

2 sides to every argument I suppose, watched Jason Garrity earlier in the season at Wolverhampton in the Under 21 blitz the field in the 20 heats only for Branford (who scrapped into semi final) to beat him in the final. Branford got a Prem reserve place out of that 1 meeting. Morris went through the card the previous night in the Under 19 only for Nielson to win the final.

Olly Allen wouldn't have won the PLRC using NLRC formula but then at start everyone knew the rules and knew top six was the 1st target to get to.

Going of subject a touch but in the Grand Prix you only have to get through to the top 8 to qualify for a semi and then the chance of winning that Grand Prix.

[Halifaxtiger]

not at all. It's an Individual and a disgraceful Way to treat the competition.

 

Not saying its right AF, because it isn't.

 

But if I was out of the running completely and my team mate who I had been riding with all season was in with a chance of winning, I'd move over and let him through.

 

The problem was Starke wasn't in the slightest bit subtle about it.

 

Been done hundreds of times. Penhall at White City in 82 in the Overseas Final was the most obvious, but Olsen did the same at the very next round.

 

Another reason that I don't go to speedway or football anymore. How do I know what Stark did if I did't go?. I don't but as you say it happens many times elsewhere and regardless of how "important" the meeting is, it should not be allowed. I don't accept the fact that these things are part and parcel of any sport. If cheating is seen at any level by the ref then it has to be stamped on and punished. When we accept it then all credibility for achievements done from it are lost. Really surprised by Halifax comments that we would all do the same, I have always respected his views but We are not all the same and must not accept these things. Most seem to feel; "if you can get away with cheating then it is ok" . Not sorry I don't accept that.

 

As I say, its not right but I'd do it for sure and, if I am honest, I am surprised that anyone else would not.

 

Just imagine how good this meeting could have been if it was held on a proper race track. Been to Rye House for this meeting the last 2 years, & the racing has been terrible. Time to move it to Lynn or Peterborough in my opinion.

 

....................or Plymouth

 

The Westernapolis the night before was simply brilliant.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Halifaxtiger

[TheScotsman]

As a totally neutral observer I thought the racing was pretty grim to be honest.

Precious little overtaking, if any, after the second bend.

Didn't seem to be much tractor work being done on the track so I assume it just got more and more bare.

Pretty drawn out affair too - obviously not helped by the number of fallers (13 if my count is correct). Fortunately a couple of them managed to clear the track and avoid more restarts.

9 fallers in the last 9 heats with only 2 of those heats not having fallers - track related at all?

 

Thought Nielsen was looking good until he brought Lambert down in his 4th ride.

Just seemed a rather impetuous move since it was only bend 3 on the 1st lap so still plenty of the race left to go.

First sight of Lambert - I kind of thought from the PR that he might dominate the meeting but he was a distance away from doing that.

 

Far too many races being won by quarter to half a lap though.

[Trees]

That's Rye for ya!