2014 League /s

[stratton]

 

 

Every greyhound track has a very settled weekly pattern of meetings (only a few of the big events shown on Sky require any one-off adjustments) so it's always easy for speedway clubs sharing with dog tracks to work out on which days the speedway track's available.

 

Personally, I think it's going to be too difficult to find enough common ground between the wealthier end of the Elite League and the poorer end of the Premier League to establish one big league of all the current 23 Elite/Premier clubs plus any ambitious National outfits like Dudley.

 

In fact, given such a wide range of ambitions to merge together, I reckon it would be a fine achievement to bring as many as 18 clubs into any new top division ... however, I fear that would still have the gloomy side-effect of some of the leftover clubs closing down unless the National League could be pitched at a slightly higher level to help absorb them.

 

Closures did happen in connection with the last "one big league" era of 1995 & 96 ... for example, Newcastle still had horrible memories of how much it cost them being a top-division club for just one season in 1984 so they closed when the 2nd Division ended in 1994 but always wanted to return if that level was revived ... sure enough, the Elite-&-Premier format began in 1997 and Newcastle have been a Premier club for all of that level's 17 seasons.

 

Meanwhile, even if England do qualify for it, the 2014 football World Cup in Brazil (generally 4 hours behind the UK, a couple of its venues 5 hours behind the UK) might not be quite as big a problem for speedway as either the 2006 or 2010 versions (Germany & South Africa each 1 hour ahead of the UK).

 

That's because there will be late-night kick-offs UK-time that won't clash with speedway during the first couple of rounds of group games (10 matches will start at 11pm/UK, 1 match starts at 2am/UK to round off the only day with 4 matches squeezed into it instead of 3) ... however, for the last round of group games and the whole knockout, everything's 5pm, 8pm or 9pm/UK ... the full set of venues/dates/kick-offs has been on FIFA's website for a few months already and the teams will be added into it when the group draw's made on Fri-6th-Dec.

So Arthur as you have made some great points and made this into a great thread what would your personal preference be for the future.?

[Halifaxtiger]

According to my calculations, there are 26 Thursdays from April to September. If you fans want regular weekly meetings, without lots of challenge matches, cups and fillers and we want the league to be self-sufficient, then I think we should be looking at somehow trying to fit every clubs home and away once into the fixtures.

 

Theoretically, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Arthur's post above is spot on, though.

 

Personally, I think it's going to be too difficult to find enough common ground between the wealthier end of the Elite League and the poorer end of the Premier League to establish one big league of all the current 23 Elite/Premier clubs plus any ambitious National outfits like Dudley.

 

In fact, given such a wide range of ambitions to merge together, I reckon it would be a fine achievement to bring as many as 18 clubs into any new top division ... however, I fear that would still have the gloomy side-effect of some of the leftover clubs closing down unless the National League could be pitched at a slightly higher level to help absorb them.

 

Closures did happen in connection with the last "one big league" era of 1995 & 96 ... for example, Newcastle still had horrible memories of how much it cost them being a top-division club for just one season in 1984 so they closed when the 2nd Division ended in 1994 but always wanted to return if that level was revived ... sure enough, the Elite-&-Premier format began in 1997 and Newcastle have been a Premier club for all of that level's 17 seasons.

 

 

I think it will be difficult but not impossible to bring them all together - the points limit will remain in existence - and while there's no doubt wealthier clubs will cherry pick riders that happens in the PL now anyway.

 

I certainly don't think that the NL should have to change in anyway to support any team that might be discarded as that risks the existence of teams at that level. The creation of a third league between the two others is possible, but no-one should be forced into it.

 

I think the problem of amalgamation in terms of finances comes when clubs are forced up. Going down or staying the same (and we are talking about a PL level set up) should not involve the same issue.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Halifaxtiger

[arthur cross]

So Arthur as you have made some great points and made this into a great thread what would your personal preference be for the future.?

I think it will be difficult but not impossible to bring them all together - the points limit will remain in existence - and while there's no doubt wealthier clubs will cherry pick riders that happens in the PL now anyway.

 

I certainly don't think that the NL should have to change in anyway to support any team that might be discarded as that risks the existence of teams at that level. The creation of a third league between the two others is possible, but no-one should be forced into it.

 

I think the problem of amalgamation in terms of finances comes when clubs are forced up. Going down or staying the same (and we are talking about a PL level set up) should not involve the same issue.

 

Easiest to reply to both the above posts in one go ...

 

The "winter of discontent" in late-2010 & early-2011 proved how it was nearly impossible for various Elite clubs to reach agreement over the average of just one rider in particular (and slightly wider implications of how that could affect team-building in the future) ... that's why I'm so sceptical of the biggest egos among Elite promoters being prepared to agree to a points-limit that would almost certainly be much nearer the current Premier level than the current Elite level (as an example, let's say the Elite drop their limit three-quarters of the way towards the Premier instead of meeting in the middle).

 

As Halifaxtiger nghtly points out, it's easier financially to drop down rather than move up ... Ipswich's decision to drop down from 2010-Elite to 2011-Premier just before the "winter of discontent" erupted proved to be magnificently well-timed for them but they'd been among the poor relations of the Elite for a while by then.

 

Several wealthier Elite clubs will have big concerns that their crowds will nosedive faster than the costs they're saving if they agree to a points-limit pitched really heavily towards the current Premier level.

 

Meanwhile, the Premier clubs have to judge a very narrow balance to find the right points-limit that's not too much more expensive that they have at the moment but still leaves room for number-1 riders whose names are big enough to attract enough extra fans to cover any extra expenses.

 

Effectively you've got a much larger-scale situation like the problem that's always been very awkward in the Conference/National League over the last decade trying to find the right mix between the small clubs who can only operate at that level and the reserve sides of bigger clubs ... this time, you're trying to mix clubs who can only operate at Premier level with a few clubs feeling they're taking part with one hand tied behind their back because they've had to drop down well below their ideal Elite level.

 

Look at the turnover of clubs in the Conference/National since 2002 and that's a really good example about why I think it'll be so difficult to bring all 23 Elite & Premier clubs together into one big league,

 

That's why I stick with my earlier reckoning that getting even 18 clubs into one big league will be a fine achievement ... and while I appreciate Halifaxtiger is one of the best supporters of the National League's ldeals and level, I can't see how it can remain unaffected by such a hefty upheaval of both the levels above it.

 

Hence, in answer to sidney's question, I think we should start with around 18 Elite/Premier clubs in a new Top League but I suspect only some of the leftovers would feel able to fit into the current National League ... looking maybe 5 years down the road, I'd expect the Top League to settle down at about 14-to-16 clubs as some of its original members realise the National's clearly their more realistic level, especially if the National's prepared to be upgraded a bit to help accommodate them as well as any of the original leftovers who didn't want to drop straight into it.

 

Do I think that's what will actually happen ? ... probably not because judging by the BSPA's past history and decision-making, there's little hope of reaching any sort of tidy merger to start with ... and even if that did happen, I'd also doubt any original friendliness and agreements would last more than a year or two before enough bad bickering rose up again to start another round of knee-jerk decisions.

[SteveLyric2]

I don't disagree with most of your points, although why you seem to think that its only certain EL promoters that have big egos I don't know. With a new top league points limit of 38.5 being heavily rumoured around several tracks and an increase in the number of top league fixtures also being mooted (although not sure by how many?) there does seem to have been considerable discussion on this already at BSPA towers!!

[MattK]

I don't disagree with most of your points, although why you seem to think that its only certain EL promoters that have big egos I don't know. With a new top league points limit of 38.5 being heavily rumoured around several tracks and an increase in the number of top league fixtures also being mooted (although not sure by how many?) there does seem to have been considerable discussion on this already at BSPA towers!!

 

Is that 38.5 Elite or Premier league points?

[Ben91]

One big league would be the nail in the coffin. The Premier League isn't broke so don't try fix it because the Elite League is struggling.

 

Elite League needs to be raced on a set week night and there has to be a squad system. These two measures are the key to getting top riders back into the UK.

 

North/South or East/West splits for the PL would be incredibly damaging, no variety for sides and no excitement for the fans who look forward to following their team to opposite sides/ends of the country.

 

The sport should not have to depend on Sky Sports or any television coverage to fund it.

 

As for regionalising it can be used to effect for bringing younger riders through. If all Premier and Elite sides were obliged to field a side of riders at say just below National League standard they could form small conferences of say 4 sides and race proper meetings home and away. It adds three meetings to each track's fixture list but it is six meetings for an upcoming British rider in total.

[MattK]

Arthur, do you not think they may be a psychological boost to the current Premier League clubs that they will now be in the top division? For example, why does Sheffield, with a population of over half a million struggle to get crowds bigger than Swindon, with a population of 180,000?

[stratton]

 

 

 

Easiest to reply to both the above posts in one go ...

 

The "winter of discontent" in late-2010 & early-2011 proved how it was nearly impossible for various Elite clubs to reach agreement over the average of just one rider in particular (and slightly wider implications of how that could affect team-building in the future) ... that's why I'm so sceptical of the biggest egos among Elite promoters being prepared to agree to a points-limit that would almost certainly be much nearer the current Premier level than the current Elite level (as an example, let's say the Elite drop their limit three-quarters of the way towards the Premier instead of meeting in the middle).

 

As Halifaxtiger nghtly points out, it's easier financially to drop down rather than move up ... Ipswich's decision to drop down from 2010-Elite to 2011-Premier just before the "winter of discontent" erupted proved to be magnificently well-timed for them but they'd been among the poor relations of the Elite for a while by then.

 

Several wealthier Elite clubs will have big concerns that their crowds will nosedive faster than the costs they're saving if they agree to a points-limit pitched really heavily towards the current Premier level.

 

Meanwhile, the Premier clubs have to judge a very narrow balance to find the right points-limit that's not too much more expensive that they have at the moment but still leaves room for number-1 riders whose names are big enough to attract enough extra fans to cover any extra expenses.

 

Effectively you've got a much larger-scale situation like the problem that's always been very awkward in the Conference/National League over the last decade trying to find the right mix between the small clubs who can only operate at that level and the reserve sides of bigger clubs ... this time, you're trying to mix clubs who can only operate at Premier level with a few clubs feeling they're taking part with one hand tied behind their back because they've had to drop down well below their ideal Elite level.

 

Look at the turnover of clubs in the Conference/National since 2002 and that's a really good example about why I think it'll be so difficult to bring all 23 Elite & Premier clubs together into one big league,

 

That's why I stick with my earlier reckoning that getting even 18 clubs into one big league will be a fine achievement ... and while I appreciate Halifaxtiger is one of the best supporters of the National League's ldeals and level, I can't see how it can remain unaffected by such a hefty upheaval of both the levels above it.

 

Hence, in answer to sidney's question, I think we should start with around 18 Elite/Premier clubs in a new Top League but I suspect only some of the leftovers would feel able to fit into the current National League ... looking maybe 5 years down the road, I'd expect the Top League to settle down at about 14-to-16 clubs as some of its original members realise the National's clearly their more realistic level, especially if the National's prepared to be upgraded a bit to help accommodate them as well as any of the original leftovers who didn't want to drop straight into it.

 

Do I think that's what will actually happen ? ... probably not because judging by the BSPA's past history and decision-making, there's little hope of reaching any sort of tidy merger to start with ... and even if that did happen, I'd also doubt any original friendliness and agreements would last more than a year or two before enough bad bickering rose up again to start another round of knee-jerk decisions.

Some great points and this topic has been a real eye opener for me and some real tough decisions have to be made.The thing that i have no idea about and it will be interesting to here how others felt and how most feel? about the standard dropping and the likes of Ward(ect) missing.I know we have Mr Brum who has a strong view on this and i fully respect that and i can 100 per cent see where he is coming from.My view is i am excited that they're might be a PL like standard/product but do others feel the same? No Ward or Woffinden( ect) but swap them for the likes of Cook,Doyle.What excites me is they're could be more variety different tracks also a way of making sure all our young Brits get a chance.I have no idea how the Swindon public feel would the crowds be badly affected who knows i think they're has to be alot of research and feedback done before any knee jerk decisions are made. Edited September 1, 2013 by sidney

[arthur cross]

Arthur, do you not think they may be a psychological boost to the current Premier League clubs that they will now be in the top division? For example, why does Sheffield, with a population of over half a million struggle to get crowds bigger than Swindon, with a population of 180,000?

 

Yes, there could be what you refer to as a "psychological boost" ... but whether that boost can be turned into a financial boost from bigger crowds is another matter entirely.

 

It's only a very few Grand Prix names like Darcy Ward that make a serious difference as away riders to the size of a home crowd ... it doesn't take much of a drop down from that superstar level (perhaps to someone like Davey Watt or Martin Smolinski who might end up as a new top league's highest-rated rider) and the "wow factor" fizzles out rapidly for attracting extra home fans to watch the away team's top riders.

 

Your contrast between the populations and crowds of Sheffield and Swindon is a really good question, especially as they're both long-established Thursday tracks sharing greyhound stadiums a few miles away from their city/town-centre.

 

But Sheffield has a much bigger range of sports teams and activities all chasing the same catchment area of supporters and (probably more importantly) the same amount of space in the local media.

 

I can fully understand you thinking it would be a great benefit from having the bigger population to aim at, but there are plenty of good examples to show that's only really a great benefit if speedway's managed to keep itself high enough up its local pecking-order to make the most of that bigger population.

 

In Sheffield, the speedway Tigers are up against football's Wednesday & United (as well as Rotherham only a few miles away) plus ice hockey's Steelers (one of their sport's biggest clubs in the country) so it's harder for the speedway to be top of the local sports headlines.

 

I don't know Swindon that well (a 1998 visit to football & a 2003 visit to speedway) but I can't recall hearing/seeing much about any other pro-sports clubs beyond the football & speedway ... hence I'd reckon the speedway Robins have a much better chance than the Sheffield Tigers of getting themselves well-known as a local place providing a big sports night out ... in fact, it's so much a better chance that I'd reckon it cancels out (maybe even overtakes) Sheffield's benefit of having the bigger population in the first place.

 

Unfortunately, across the country as a whole, speedway often doesn't seem good at persuading its local catchment area that it's a better night out than going to wider ranges of other sports nearby (or big city-centre nightlife away from sports) ... however, speedway seems to do much better than might be normally expected as soon as the competition dwindles.

 

Look at towns like Berwick (population 12,000), Workington (25,000), King's Lynn (40,000) & Eastbourne (100,000) where speedway attracts bigger percentages of the local population than in Swindon, never mind Sheffield ... in fact, the total population of those 4 towns I've just mentioned is about the same as Swindon on its own but I'm sure the total of their 4 home crowds would comfortably beat Swindon's home crowd.

 

There are exceptions ... notably, the past history of a large workforce in motor manufacturing in the West Midlands maybe helping to explain why big towns and cities in that area have remained greater supporters of a mechanical sport like speedway.

 

But a bigger population is no guarantee whatsoever of bigger crowds ... otherwise, we'd still have a few teams drawing on London's 8-million potential customers !!

Edited September 1, 2013 by arthur cross

[New Science]

Is that 38.5 Elite or Premier league points?

Elite league clubs may be happy to downsize to reduce costs but Premier league clubs are no way going to increase their costs to meet the Elite league half way.If there is one big league it will run at existing Premier league level probably ruling out any rider with an Elite league average of above 8 baring in mind Craig Cook is the best rider in the current Premier league.Not sure how this will go down will Elite league fans and whether they be willing to pay current admission prices to watch it.

[The White Knight]

I don't disagree with most of your points, although why you seem to think that its only certain EL promoters that have big egos I don't know. With a new top league points limit of 38.5 being heavily rumoured around several tracks and an increase in the number of top league fixtures also being mooted (although not sure by how many?) there does seem to have been considerable discussion on this already at BSPA towers!!

 

I do hope you are right Skidder1. If they haven't been planning really hard - then Speedway is in deeper doo-doo than I thought.

 

Elite league clubs may be happy to downsize to reduce costs but Premier league clubs are no way going to increase their costs to meet the Elite league half way.If there is one big league it will run at existing Premier league level probably ruling out any rider with an Elite league average of above 8 baring in mind Craig Cook is the best rider in the current Premier league.Not sure how this will go down will Elite league fans and whether they be willing to pay current admission prices to watch it.

 

If they are not paying the over priced Foreigners they could reduce their Prices at the Gate accordingly. Actually that may induce more Supporters to come along rather than less.

 

Just a thought.

[orion]

Elite league clubs may be happy to downsize to reduce costs but Premier league clubs are no way going to increase their costs to meet the Elite league half way.If there is one big league it will run at existing Premier league level probably ruling out any rider with an Elite league average of above 8 baring in mind Craig Cook is the best rider in the current Premier league.Not sure how this will go down will Elite league fans and whether they be willing to pay current admission prices to watch it.

.The bottom line if there was one big league then every rider would have an average that would allowed them to take part in it ..there is no way there going to say to woffy etc that you can't ride in the uk, that is never going to happen ...

[stratton]

 

.The bottom line if there was one big league then every rider would have an average that would allowed them to take part in it ..there is no way there going to say to woffy etc that you can't ride in the uk, that is never going to happen ...

Maybe but if clubs have a wage cap then the likes of Ward(ect) won't be part of it surely.?

[DunRobin]

I think that you have to look at the wage structures, there are many teams that are struggling with finance & I do not think it is just Swindon, Birmingham & Belle Vue that are alone in this problem in the EL. It also seems to me that there are a lot more foreign riders in the PL than when Swindon were competing in that league. You can not keep the foreign riders out of the leagues but if a sensible wage structure based around the annual turnover of clubs were implemented, how many riders would still want to come over. Speedway needs to take a hard look at finances & not follow what has been allowed to happen with football. Over the coming years, I am expecting a lot more lower football league clubs to go to the wall as the Premier League continues to take more & more money & does not pass anything like enough down to the lower leagues but just allows more & more money go to the top players & their agents.

[New Science]

.The bottom line if there was one big league then every rider would have an average that would allowed them to take part in it ..there is no way there going to say to woffy etc that you can't ride in the uk, that is never going to happen ...

There is a chance that Tai could/might become world champion this year.If this happens he will look for the biggest contract of his career at his clubs.Can't see Tai riding for 'beer money' in Britain in what will be an enlarged Premier league.If the Sky money goes the days of the Elite league superstars/grand prix riders are gone British or not.

[orion]

If they are not paying the over priced Foreigners they could reduce their Prices at the Gate accordingly. Actually that may induce more Supporters to come along rather than less.

 

 

Can't see that I saw by the massive crowd at Swindon last week that if the teams are decent people can find the money ...I don't think it's certain more people would go if the prices were lower to watch a lower standard . People can say what they what be there a massive call to watch the top riders in the uk . Edited September 1, 2013 by orion

[stratton]

Can't see that I saw by the massive crowd at Swindon last week that if the teams are decent people can find the money ...I don't think it's certain more people would go if the prices were lower to watch a lower standard . People can say what they what be there a massive call to watch the top riders in the uk .

A great meeting a great crowd obviously with Poole being the pulling club with Ward and Hancock.But lets be honest that meeting is just filling over the cracks really not the norm.I bet Swindon didn't make anything last week it probably just covered some of the losses on other meetings.If anything now is the right time to make changes they're has to be cut costing measures and quickly.Ward, Puk, and Holder, are the only ones i would miss but for me the sport surviving in this country is more important than the stars.

[SteveLyric2]

Can't see that I saw by the massive crowd at Swindon last week that if the teams are decent people can find the money ...I don't think it's certain more people would go if the prices were lower to watch a lower standard . People can say what they what be there a massive call to watch the top riders in the uk .

Why would it be a lower standard? Just because it might be missing the top riders - some would say the standard (of racing) would be a lot higher!!

[Halifaxtiger]

 

 

 

Easiest to reply to both the above posts in one go ...

 

The "winter of discontent" in late-2010 & early-2011 proved how it was nearly impossible for various Elite clubs to reach agreement over the average of just one rider in particular (and slightly wider implications of how that could affect team-building in the future) ... that's why I'm so sceptical of the biggest egos among Elite promoters being prepared to agree to a points-limit that would almost certainly be much nearer the current Premier level than the current Elite level (as an example, let's say the Elite drop their limit three-quarters of the way towards the Premier instead of meeting in the middle).

 

especially if the National's prepared to be upgraded a bit to help accommodate them as well as any of the original leftovers who didn't want to drop straight into it.

 

 

I didn't take ego's into account in my plan for 2014, just what I think is best for speedway in this country. Somehow, I doubt if all promotions will do the same, and you are absolutely right that based upon past experience people will put their track way, way above the sport as a whole.

 

The NL simply can't do that. It might be possible for Dudley, Kent & Mildenhall (although I very much doubt that the latter would want to) but the remaining 5 tracks almost certainly could not meet the additional financial cost.

 

 

North/South or East/West splits for the PL would be incredibly damaging, no variety for sides and no excitement for the fans who look forward to following their team to opposite sides/ends of the country.

 

The sport should not have to depend on Sky Sports or any television coverage to fund it.

 

 

That's simply not true - at least based upon what I have said it isn't. Teams would ride 17 home matches, all against different clubs. They would ride 17 away ones, 11 against the same that they have ridden at home, and 6 against different ones from the other regional split.

 

What's more people would be able to travel to the other end of the other country (although how many actually do that is another matter - I am wondering just how many Rye House supporters were at Edinburgh the other night when I was there) because they are guaranteed 6 meetings against northern or southern based sides, and even in the regional splits there are some fair journeys such as King's Lynn to Plymouth.

How many sports do not depend on TV money ? Can you see Football's Premier League surviving without it ?

 

It might be better if TV money is just a bonus, but it will never be included as such because all teams spend to their income.

[The White Knight]

I didn't take ego's into account in my plan for 2014, just what I think is best for speedway in this country. Somehow, I doubt if all promotions will do the same, and you are absolutely right that based upon past experience people will put their track way, way above the sport as a whole.

 

The NL simply can't do that. It might be possible for Dudley, Kent & Mildenhall (although I very much doubt that the latter would want to) but the remaining 5 tracks almost certainly could not meet the additional financial cost.

 

 

 

That's simply not true - at least based upon what I have said it isn't. Teams would ride 17 home matches, all against different clubs. They would ride 17 away ones, 11 against the same that they have ridden at home, and 6 against different ones from the other regional split.

 

What's more people would be able to travel to the other end of the other country (although how many actually do that is another matter - I am wondering just how many Rye House supporters were at Edinburgh the other night when I was there) because they are guaranteed 6 meetings against northern or southern based sides, and even in the regional splits there are some fair journeys such as King's Lynn to Plymouth.

How many sports do not depend on TV money ? Can you see Football's Premier League surviving without it ?

 

It might be better if TV money is just a bonus, but it will never be included as such because all teams spend to their income.

 

I can, as usual, find myself in complete agreement with you.

 

.......................................... apart from a couple of issues.