Guest Riders --- 45 Years On.

[castrolargh]

And what happens when a star number one is missing ? you used rr and the crowd drops and people lose money or there are two or 3 riders missing ? ...as i said i don't like guests but in till there is better idea i guest they are here to stay

That is something a promoter would need to consider prior to building his team, ie how many likely absences and build the team accordingly. How about any team absences, bring in the no 8 and bump everyone up a place in the team, ie 2nd heat leader becomes no1 in his absence or 1st reserve moves up to 2nd string if one is absent. I know there will always be unforseen absences, it is inevitable but if a system like this was used surely promoters would have to seriously consider whether or not to offer a team place to a rider who has a history or likelihood of missing several meetings.

[orion]

That is something a promoter would need to consider prior to building his team, ie how many likely absences and build the team accordingly. How about any team absences, bring in the no 8 and bump everyone up a place in the team, ie 2nd heat leader becomes no1 in his absence or 1st reserve moves up to 2nd string if one is absent. I know there will always be unforseen absences, it is inevitable but if a system like this was used surely promoters would have to seriously consider whether or not to offer a team place to a rider who has a history or likelihood of missing several meetings.

As what hapens if do that and a rider breaks his leg ? you can't factor that in . the bottom line is after 40 years or more some of best speedway brains have sat down many a time and can't come up with anything that is better . Also Fans don't want to rr for top riders .there is so much more that just making a rule that just get rid of guests .

[LagutaRacingFan]

Poland seem to be fine, They run squad systems and don't use this diabolical guests rule.

 

Every club should have a squad of 10 and the riders in form get picked but a team of 7 always have to fit into a certain points limit.

[E I Addio]

the bottom line is after 40 years or more some of best speedway brains have sat down many a time

 

Who were they then ?

[A ORLOV]

Who were they then ?

It is obvious, there was the tea lady and the one who pops in once a week to do the cleaning.

[E I Addio]

Good idea. They tried it in 2001 and it failed. Numerous teams had illegal guests as promoters/managers were clearly a bit thick.

 

 

I suppose you have hit on something that is at the root of a whole range of problems in the sport. Not much hope if that's the case. You have really depressed me now. :cry:

[Humphrey Appleby]

I'd just say if an 8 point man is missing and replace by a 3 point man then you've lost 5 points. The opposition will get 5 more points so a 10 point handicap, take off a point or two from the handicap to discourage the use of riders being missing and you have an 8-9 point handicap. It could be worked. The same could be done if a team decides to build a team 5 points under the limit to save a few £££.

 

The problem is how do you factor in tactical rides (or tactical subs if you reintroduced them)? A handicapped team starting 10 points behind could conceivably use a tactical ride as early as Heat 5 which wouldn't necessarily be fair. You'd need to have a way of adjusting the par score as the match went on - a sort of speedway Duckworth-Lewis method - to determine when a team was trailing by 10 points in real terms.

 

I suppose you could split the handicap points over the programmed rides of the missing rider, and where the points couldn't be split equally, allocate them to the weakest heat pairings (a bit like how you do it in golf with the stroke index). However, I suspect everyone reading this has lost the will to live by now, which demonstrates the difficulty of doing it right.

[SCB]

The problem is how do you factor in tactical rides (or tactical subs if you reintroduced them)? A handicapped team starting 10 points behind could conceivably use a tactical ride as early as Heat 5 which wouldn't necessarily be fair. You'd need to have a way of adjusting the par score as the match went on - a sort of speedway Duckworth-Lewis method - to determine when a team was trailing by 10 points in real terms.

 

I suppose you could split the handicap points over the programmed rides of the missing rider, and where the points couldn't be split equally, allocate them to the weakest heat pairings (a bit like how you do it in golf with the stroke index). However, I suspect everyone reading this has lost the will to live by now, which demonstrates the difficulty of doing it right.

Reading that, you're right! I'll give this some thought as it must be possible to do so people know whats going on but works fairly.

 

I guess the handicap points could just be given out every 2nd or 3rd heat, if you get rained off the heat before you're about to get handicap points them though. No different to a rain off now after heat 10 where the away number 1 has only ridden twice but most others have ridden 3 times.

[rob tatum]

3 point rider ,7 point riders ,handicap system blah !blah ! Blah ! Sorry its all too complicated I would like it to be like me simple. For such a basic sport I need the knowledge of da vinci to fill out my programme these days.

[enotian]

No need for a handicap system to be complicated.

 

If you're missing a 9point rider, 9 point head start. (adjust in the event of a rain off if applicable)

 

Not completely fair to the team with the missing rider (re 5th ride/tacticals)but it might incentivise teams to sign a replacement and/or develop a competitive No.8.

 

Alas that's easier said than done. And on the basis that the guest facility is most likely popular with the riders I feel we're stuck with it regardless of how strange it appears in the context of a team sport.

[TwoMinuteWarning]

Amazing how the rest of the world's major leagues struggle on without guest riders, and we can't do without them in the UK.

 

They don't know what they're missing.

Edited August 27, 2013 by TwoMinuteWarning

[Humphrey Appleby]

No need for a handicap system to be complicated.

If you're missing a 9point rider, 9 point head start.

 

Except that if a rider scores 9 points, it also stops the opposition scoring 9 points so the net difference is 18 points.

[enotian]

Except that if a rider scores 9 points, it also stops the opposition scoring 9 points so the net difference is 18 points.

Good point but it isn't even that straightforward as the missing riders teammates score would increase. Complicated For it to work it would need to be simple to apply and enable the team with the missing rider to be competitive. As I say a handicap system would only be marginally more palatable than guests so I can't see it being adopted.