Alternative/ Pirate League

[The White Knight]

Many speedway riders used to have a 'day job' and then 'earned a months money in one night of speedway' as was often quoted by the

riders themselves..

 

IF speedway could go 'back to the future' and get somewhere in between where we were then and where we are now then it would surely move forwards...

 

Cutting costs is without doubt the biggest challenge, reduce those and rider salaries can then also be reduced, with the

'golden ticket' then of being able to lower admission fees which 'should' increase attendances overall...

 

Maybe a 'new level' of speedway could just start that ball rolling?

 

Good idea - with upright 2-Valve Engines. It would certainly reduce COSTS and probably injuries as well. :approve:

[Vince]

Good idea - with upright 2-Valve Engines. It would certainly reduce COSTS and probably injuries as well. :approve:

 

If you bought in a rule tomorrow stating that everybody had to use 2 valve uprights and ignored the redundant equipment and need for a completely new set up for every rider it still wouldn't save a penny. Speedway is an expensive sport but that's because of a combination of things and little to do with the basic engines.

 

Compared to years ago travelling is far more expensive.

 

The job market has changed significantly so it is harder to find a job that fits in with Speedway commitments, the chances of having an employer who is a Speedway fan so willing to allow time off for the sport has more or less disappeared. Plenty of riders hold down a job as well, many need to in order to subsidise their Speedway.

 

The standard of equipment expected by promotions, fans and riders has increased greatly. We often see comments on here about how great it was that riders turned up with a bike on a rack on the back of their car. See how fans react these days when a rider turns up with scruffy equipment or even worse if mechanical problems cost their team a win and you'll realise those days are long gone. Just read through any team thread and you are likely to come across somebody saying that rider a would be ok but he has really slow bikes and needs to invest in his equipment!

 

That's just rider costs, when it comes to stadiums and tracks H&S, utility bills, cost of transporting track materials, medical cover and a never ending list of other essentials that are getting ever more expensive all take their toll.

 

Cost cutting isn't as easy as it might seem. I would suggest a standardisation of carburrettors, ignitions and clutches along with a rev limiter to increase reliability to cut equipment costs for riders. The saving from that in terms of reduced admission would probably be pennies rather than pounds. In reality the operating costs of Speedway are probably already pretty near the bone.

[Long Eye]

Good idea - with upright 2-Valve Engines. It would certainly reduce COSTS and probably injuries as well. :approve:

 

Please explain in detail how and why this statement would be true.

[ch958]

Please explain in detail how and why this statement would be true.

 

please explain in detail why this statement wouldn't be true

[Guest]

Pirate League? Get real! It just isn't going to happen.

[Long Eye]

please explain in detail why this statement wouldn't be true

 

OK a brief reply.Just because an engine is mounted with the cylinder vertical and only has a 2 valve head does not make it cheaper to run. 2 heavy valves are more difficult to control than smaller lightweight ones thus valve bounce occurs more easily resulting in engine damage. Bikes with engines mounted horizontally were developed as they handle better than upright ones so better handling generally results in a safer bike to ride. Lots of equipment instantly made obsolete would mean that riders wouldn't have anything to sell to enable them to invest in the new bikes. The JRM 2 valve ice racing engine costs almost the same as the 4 valve engine to buy.

[ch958]

OK a brief reply.Just because an engine is mounted with the cylinder vertical and only has a 2 valve head does not make it cheaper to run. 2 heavy valves are more difficult to control than smaller lightweight ones thus valve bounce occurs more easily resulting in engine damage. Bikes with engines mounted horizontally were developed as they handle better than upright ones so better handling generally results in a safer bike to ride. Lots of equipment instantly made obsolete would mean that riders wouldn't have anything to sell to enable them to invest in the new bikes. The JRM 2 valve ice racing engine costs almost the same as the 4 valve engine to buy.

 

fair comment - you seem to know something about the machinery - many fans don't and don't care. With this in mind can you suggest where machinery cost savings could be made?

[Long Eye]

fair comment - you seem to know something about the machinery - many fans don't and don't care. With this in mind can you suggest where machinery cost savings could be made?

 

Make sure the guy doing the engines is not out to fleece you. There is some charlatans out there.

[SCB]

Make sure the guy doing the engines is not out to fleece you. There is some charlatans out there.

What about changing tyres? Its all about getting traction right? So surely if you changed the tyres in some way it was having a biggest effect than anything done to the engine? Or am I talking rubbish?

 

I can only base it on my car but I had a set of M3 alloys and high end tyres and the back end really struggled to break lose despite the fact the tyres failed an MOT. I put on a set of standard wheels (so narrower) with low end (budget) tyres that were legal and the back end was moving around when I put my foot down. Made me realise the difference a tyre can make, would have been no good making the engine in my car faster as the wheels were sliding around.

[Vince]

Pirate League? Get real! It just isn't going to happen.

Probably not but that very likely means the sport is going to lose some tracks. I'm not so certain as you they will just accept that.

[Long Eye]

What about changing tyres? Its all about getting traction right? So surely if you changed the tyres in some way it was having a biggest effect than anything done to the engine? Or am I talking rubbish?

 

I can only base it on my car but I had a set of M3 alloys and high end tyres and the back end really struggled to break lose despite the fact the tyres failed an MOT. I put on a set of standard wheels (so narrower) with low end (budget) tyres that were legal and the back end was moving around when I put my foot down. Made me realise the difference a tyre can make, would have been no good making the engine in my car faster as the wheels were sliding around.

 

Good point about the tyres. A rider suggested to me that a tyre that provided more grip might be the way to go. If the tyre was designed like that then riders would have to back off the throttle more going into corners which would reduce the amount of time per heat that the engine is on 100% throttle.

[Guest]

Pirate League? Get real! It just isn't going to happen.

 

Probably not but that very likely means the sport is going to lose some tracks. I'm not so certain as you they will just accept that.

 

 

 

Many thanks for your response - but who and what are you referring to please?

Edited August 22, 2013 by Guest

[Vince]

The tracks where their survival is in doubt, if the rumours are true. If those tracks were to break away would others follow if it made their financial position more sustainable? So much depends on what changes are or have been agreed for next season but it is something I have thought a possibility for a while.

[greyhoundp]

Pirate League? Get real! It just isn't going to happen.

 

If it doesnt happen then it seems maybe we Could lose some Tracks, the other option, is that the FIM give Tracks 3 years to bring in safety fences. So my dear Gustix it happened back in your day, why couldnt it happen now ?.I have long thought SKY money or TV money say from Eurosport for PL racing may have brought about a breakaway before now, or even some sort of backing from a National Bookmaker, with meetings shown on there own channel, could bring a breakaway.

 

If PL Promoters were more PROactive, in regards to an alternative TV deal, Im sure something could be arranged, it just means they need to be brave enough to breakaway, not so much from the BSPA, but breakaway from Go speed.

[Long Eye]

If it doesnt happen then it seems maybe we Could lose some Tracks, the other option, is that the FIM give Tracks 3 years to bring in safety fences. So my dear Gustix it happened back in your day, why couldnt it happen now ?.I have long thought SKY money or TV money say from Eurosport for PL racing may have brought about a breakaway before now, or even some sort of backing from a National Bookmaker, with meetings shown on there own channel, could bring a breakaway.

 

If PL Promoters were more PROactive, in regards to an alternative TV deal, Im sure something could be arranged, it just means they need to be brave enough to breakaway, not so much from the BSPA, but breakaway from Go speed.

 

My understanding is that promoters in this country have known for four years that airfences were going to be introduced from 2014.

[The White Knight]

Please explain in detail how and why this statement would be true.

 

I am not mechanically minded Long Eye.

 

I would say however, in defense of my argument, that the 2-Valve Engine is easier to maintain. The Riders in the old days were not having to pay very expensive Tuners as they are today - a lot of them maintained there own Engines. These days, by the time the Rider has bought his new Titanium Parts for his Engine and everything else that is required to make it (the Bike) go faster it Costs him a fortune, this is passed on to the Promoter by way of increased Wage demands which, in turn, is passed on to us Supporters at the Gate.

 

Now I have Supported Speedway for a very long time and the Racing today is, in my opinion, not as good as what we used to watch years ago. A lot of things contribute to this - but - to my mind Speedway is a diminishing spectacle to what it used to be.

 

You go to Speedway to watch RACING. The racing nowadays is certainly not that much better when you consider the COSTS of 4-Valve and Laydown Engines against that of the 2-Valve Engine years ago. Pounds definitely do NOT = Improvement.

 

Added to that - there were injuries back in the Seventies but certainly not as many as there are these days. To me - this alone would be reason enough to retun to 2-Valve Engines - I DON'T like seeing Riders hurt. That is happening far too often at the moment.

[Vince]

I am not mechanically minded Long Eye.

 

I would say however, in defense of my argument, that the 2-Valve Engine is easier to maintain. The Riders in the old days were not having to pay very expensive Tuners as they are today - a lot of them maintained there own Engines. These days, by the time the Rider has bought his new Titanium Parts for his Engine and everything else that is required to make it (the Bike) go faster it Costs him a fortune, this is passed on to the Promoter by way of increased Wage demands which, in turn, is passed on to us Supporters at the Gate.

 

Now I have Supported Speedway for a very long time and the Racing today is, in my opinion, not as good as what we used to watch years ago. A lot of things contribute to this - but - to my mind Speedway is a diminishing spectacle to what it used to be.

 

You go to Speedway to watch RACING. The racing nowadays is certainly not that much better when you consider the COSTS of 4-Valve and Laydown Engines against that of the 2-Valve Engine years ago. Pounds definitely do NOT = Improvement.

 

Added to that - there were injuries back in the Seventies but certainly not as many as there are these days. To me - this alone would be reason enough to retun to 2-Valve Engines - I DON'T like seeing Riders hurt. That is happening far too often at the moment.

 

I would disagree with just about everything you say :-)

 

A 2 valve engine is very little, if any, different to maintain than a 4 valve. There is a perception that 2 valve engines ran on forever but in my experience that just isn't true. If you took a 60's Jawa 2 valve and tuned it to the levels that riders want/ need these days it wouldn't last half as long as the current engines. If they were still run at 9000rpm then they would last longer but a 4v would last longer still. Riders could maintain a 4 valve engine in the same way many used to (many used to use tuners then as well) but as I said in a previous post expectations of equipment are very much higher from riders, promoters and fans alike. Racers in any motor sport are subject to feeling the need for the very best equipment and Speedway is no different. If rider A has the latest all singing all dancing parts then rider B feels he needs the same to be competitive. Whether he actually does or not may be a different matter but the fans will never forgive him if he loses them a trophy because he didn't have the best equipment.

 

Increased wage demands? I think that in real terms riders of the past earned more from Speedway than they do today. However promoters could afford more and whether the demands of todays top riders can be met might be a different story.

 

I have followed Speedway since 1967 or 1968 and believe that the racing I see today is better than any I saw in my youth. The atmosphere has gone with the crowds but the racing and the skill level of todays riders is brilliant imo. Is a Speedway engine today really more expensive than it was in the 60's?

 

Just from memory I would say that there were less injuries in the 70's but more were very serious. Riders today seem to be on the edge the whole time and need to be to win so there do appear to be a lot more crashes. However that is just an opinion and I have no facts to support it.

[Mad Potter 2]

Interesting points Vince.

I had a conversation with Dia Evans a few years ago about his lodger in the early 1970's. A certain Phil Crump that when he first came over to race for Crewe. He said that in the first year Crumpie rode in the UK he never touched the engine in his bike.

[The White Knight]

Interesting points Vince.

I had a conversation with Dia Evans a few years ago about his lodger in the early 1970's. A certain Phil Crump that when he first came over to race for Crewe. He said that in the first year Crumpie rode in the UK he never touched the engine in his bike.

 

Dai says not just Crumpie - there were plenty of others too.

[Long Eye]

Interesting points Vince.

I had a conversation with Dia Evans a few years ago about his lodger in the early 1970's. A certain Phil Crump that when he first came over to race for Crewe. He said that in the first year Crumpie rode in the UK he never touched the engine in his bike.

 

As Norman Hunter told me, when he was riding there wasn't the professionalism that there is now. He used to service his JAPs after almost every meeting if there was time.