Phil Morris In The Star

[The White Knight]

Still think you need to get out more SCB....

 

I was just thinking that myself DB.

 

However - I have to say that it is very well worked out. Well done SCB.

[stratton]

Great post SCB really interesting, without your stats in your opinion do you think Eastbourne and Lakeside are big homer tracks?.Halifax and Exeter i thought had big home track advantages and often they had quite weak teams. I think the visitors riders sometimes struggled there because often riders would only visit once a year.

[SCB]

Great post SCB really interesting, without your stats in your opinion do you think Eastbourne and Lakeside are big homer tracks?.Halifax and Exeter i thought had big home track advantages and often they had quite weak teams. I think the visitors riders sometimes struggled there because often riders would only visit once a year.

I'd say generally people perception is pretty spot on. I think most EL tracks have a fair degree of home track advantage with Eastbourne, Lakeside and Peterborough the top 3. Brum, Coventry and Poole probably the bottom 3. TBF, home track advantage is also a disadvantage away. A good team will be a good team over a season and a bad team a bad team regardless of any home track advantage. Edited August 15, 2013 by SCB

[Ommer Mon]

Sam Ermolenko, Peter Karlsson, Ronnie Correy ........................ Masters of Monmore ...................................

 

Try telling that to Hamill and Hancock!

[HeathenatOdsal85!]

Or Erik Gundersen or Jan O'Pedersen!

[E I Addio]

I'd say generally people perception is pretty spot on. I think most EL tracks have a fair degree of home track advantage with Eastbourne, Lakeside and Peterborough the top 3. Brum, Coventry and Poole probably the bottom 3. TBF, home track advantage is also a disadvantage away. A good team will be a good team over a season and a bad team a bad team regardless of any home track advantage.

 

So how do you define home track advantage ? I think its on the Malcolm Simmons DVD where Simmo said Exeter was so big and fast that a lot of riders were defeated in their minds before they got on the track. Trevor Hedge said something similar about Hyde Road. Is that home track advantage or is were they just tracks that intimidated certain riders ?

 

You mention both Lakeside and Peterborough as being in the top 3 for home advantage but if you take a rider like Kenny Bjerre, at his best he is very good at whichever of the two he rides, but when he doesn't get his head together he is pretty mediocre at both. Is that the rider or the track ?

 

There are many, factors that affect a track even including the type of material used for the racing surface. Any track curator worth his salt (and there are not that many of them around these days) will be able to prepare a track the way the home riders want, and that I would suggest is one of the main determining factors of home advantage.

 

People throw these expressions around like trick tracks and home advantage but getting a consistent definition of what the terms mean is more difficult.

 

What nonsense? Physically demanding?

 

Big tracks are more physically demanding!

 

According to Stuart Robson, who has a bit of experience in these matters Lakeside is the most physically demanding EL track because of the effort required to turn the bike sharply, but I guess you know more about these things than he does.

[SCB]

So how do you define home track advantage ?

Being better at home than away.

 

Why do you think the same teams are towards the top if there no such thing? Obviously it's more than just the track. It's the track, the prep and the riders. Take Craig Cook, his split is 8.5/5.5. So he's quote a bit better at home, if he signed for Lynn (and track he is pants on) would he still have home track advantage? No. But Kings Lynn is generally a track with quite a bit of home track advantage. So the rider and the track have to match for the advantage.

Edited August 16, 2013 by SCB

[stratton]

 

 

So how do you define home track advantage ? I think its on the Malcolm Simmons DVD where Simmo said Exeter was so big and fast that a lot of riders were defeated in their minds before they got on the track. Trevor Hedge said something similar about Hyde Road. Is that home track advantage or is were they just tracks that intimidated certain riders ?

 

You mention both Lakeside and Peterborough as being in the top 3 for home advantage but if you take a rider like Kenny Bjerre, at his best he is very good at whichever of the two he rides, but when he doesn't get his head together he is pretty mediocre at both. Is that the rider or the track ?

 

There are many, factors that affect a track even including the type of material used for the racing surface. Any track curator worth his salt (and there are not that many of them around these days) will be able to prepare a track the way the home riders want, and that I would suggest is one of the main determining factors of home advantage.

 

People throw these expressions around like trick tracks and home advantage but getting a consistent definition of what the terms mean is more difficult.

 

 

 

According to Stuart Robson, who has a bit of experience in these matters Lakeside is the most physically demanding EL track because of the effort required to turn the bike sharply, but I guess you know more about these things than he does.

Some really good points and you are spot on about Exeter, i knew a rider who hated the place and it had a big steel fence which looked frightening.He probably only rode there about 5 or 6 times in his career and he averaged about 2 there alot of that was because he was mentally beaten before he had started.I don't think it is as revelent now but riders then might say go on a northern tour and ride certain tracks only once in a season.Where as now riders maybe ride somewhere 3 times a year register there gearings set ups (ect)and improve on there next visit to that track.Certainly the smaller tracks are harder to ride Crayford i heard was difficult to ride when i first started going Oxford i think? was the smallest track this was before Eastbourne entered the division 1 fray.Home track advantage is most of it just a MENTAL thing confidence ability?i think so.If somebody was used to riding the say fast natured track like Owlerton obviously it would be a challenge to ride Eastbourne vice versa again with Eastbourne riders finding it hard riding Sheffield.

[E I Addio]

Being better at home than away.

 

Why do you think the same teams are towards the top if there no such thing? Obviously it's more than just the track. It's the track, the prep and the riders. Take Craig Cook, his split is 8.5/5.5. So he's quote a bit better at home, if he signed for Lynn (and track he is pants on) would he still have home track advantage? No. But Kings Lynn is generally a track with quite a bit of home track advantage. So the rider and the track have to match for the advantage.

 

I am not saying there is no such thing as home track advantage, just that the concept of it is over-rated, and there is a lot of nonsense talks about it, as if the actual track itself was the most crucial factor.

 

If I am understanding your above post correctly I think I more or less agree with you. Obviously certain riders have different abilities on different tracks and by packing your team with riders who can ride that type of track they will be a strong team at home, but I don't think the tracks themselves i.e size and shape give an inherent advantage that can't be overcome, its more to do with the attitude of the riders.

 

I take your point about Craig Cook and there are a number of riders like that, but he is relatively new to the sport and time will tell whether he can learn to ride different types of tracks. I always remember watching Leigh Adams at Lakeside, he would be standing right next to the airfence every time the track was graded then go out and ride were the tractor had been. Travis McGowan on the other hand, in the same meeting would ride the same line race after race, and come last race after race. That's why Leigh was a great rider and McGowan was an also ran, so, yes I agree rider and track have to match for the advantage but riders can learn to conquer tracks they don't like.

 

Some really good points and you are spot on about Exeter, i knew a rider who hated the place and it had a big steel fence which looked frightening.He probably only rode there about 5 or 6 times in his career and he averaged about 2 there alot of that was because he was mentally beaten before he had started.I don't think it is as revelent now but riders then might say go on a northern tour and ride certain tracks only once in a season.Where as now riders maybe ride somewhere 3 times a year register there gearings set ups (ect)and improve on there next visit to that track.Certainly the smaller tracks are harder to ride Crayford i heard was difficult to ride when i first started going Oxford i think? was the smallest track this was before Eastbourne entered the division 1 fray.Home track advantage is most of it just a MENTAL thing confidence ability?i think so.If somebody was used to riding the say fast natured track like Owlerton obviously it would be a challenge to ride Eastbourne vice versa again with Eastbourne riders finding it hard riding Sheffield.

 

Spot on Sidney but its more than a big track/ small track thing. When Lee Richardson was at Eastbourne, he said Lakeside, a very similar size track, was his most hated track in the whole of Europe but he eventually signed for the Hammers because he knew that getting to grips with the track would make him a better rider, and of course history tells us that once he got to grips with it he wanted to come as a full asset.

So you are dead right Sidney its all in the mind, but lets not minimise it, its hell of a mentally tough sport and we should cut riders some slack when they don't get their minds round certain tracks.

[SCB]

I take your point about Craig Cook and there are a number of riders like that, but he is relatively new to the sport and time will tell whether he can learn to ride different types of tracks. I always remember watching Leigh Adams at Lakeside, he would be standing right next to the airfence every time the track was graded then go out and ride were the tractor had been. Travis McGowan on the other hand, in the same meeting would ride the same line race after race, and come last race after race. That's why Leigh was a great rider and McGowan was an also ran, so, yes I agree rider and track have to match for the advantage but riders can learn to conquer tracks they don't like.

I think comparing Leigh to Travis is a bit unfair. Leigh would have kicked Travis' backside on any track anywhere in the World as he was so much better. The exception being possibly a track that gave Travis an advantage (probably through familiarity, possibly through confidence as the first time eh went there he fluked a maximum), had that track been Travs home track it would have been home track advantage.

 

An advantage can come from anything and you can make things an advantage. Rarely will an advantage only be available to you. It's not a bad thing either, I know if I was a promoter/manager I'd sign 7 rider who rode my track well and then prep it every week to suit them. That would be an advantage they had over the opposition.

[stratton]

I think comparing Leigh to Travis is a bit unfair. Leigh would have kicked Travis' backside on any track anywhere in the World as he was so much better. The exception being possibly a track that gave Travis an advantage (probably through familiarity, possibly through confidence as the first time eh went there he fluked a maximum), had that track been Travs home track it would have been home track advantage.

 

An advantage can come from anything and you can make things an advantage. Rarely will an advantage only be available to you. It's not a bad thing either, I know if I was a promoter/manager I'd sign 7 rider who rode my track well and then prep it every week to suit them. That would be an advantage they had over the opposition.

I think that is why the old British league was so revered worldwide,even now to a certain extent different tests thats why Eastbourne and Lakeside are healthy for the league.Both of those tracks are not my favourites but they have a place variation you need skill to ride them to ride them you improve as a rider.Years ago you could ride Exeter(mon. Leicester( tues Poole(wed. Sheffield( thurs. Hackney( Frid. Hyde rd(sat. What a test that was for a rider all different sorts of tests i always thought they're were homer tracks i have now changed my mind i believe most of it is mentality and desire.

[E I Addio]

I think comparing Leigh to Travis is a bit unfair. Leigh would have kicked Travis' backside on any track anywhere in the World as he was so much better. The exception being possibly a track that gave Travis an advantage (probably through familiarity, possibly through confidence as the first time eh went there he fluked a maximum), had that track been Travs home track it would have been home track advantage.

 

An advantage can come from anything and you can make things an advantage. Rarely will an advantage only be available to you. It's not a bad thing either, I know if I was a promoter/manager I'd sign 7 rider who rode my track well and then prep it every week to suit them. That would be an advantage they had over the opposition.

 

I don't particularly disagree with any of that. I was not intending to be unfair to Travis as a rider simply illustrating a point that great riders like Leigh are great because they are meticulous in every detail including observing subtle track changes, that's why they learn to ride them all.

[jimmy jimmy]

Matej Zagar has said he used to hate KIrky Lane but now he enjoys it as he has learnt which lines to ride and the surface is a lot smoother now. I doubt that tracks intimidate riders so much these days, but knowing set ups and racing lines is what gives the home advantage. I think though that this year has seen more close matches than most years, so maybe the home advantage is less relevant now?

[BritPete]

It's obviously getting the right riders on the right track. Put 7 Seb Ulameks on Eastbournes track and they'd lose. Put 7 Lewis Bridger no there and they'd rarely if ever lose.

 

As I said above, a few years ago I worked out teams away scores as a % of their away scores (or vice-versa) and found the same teams were top and bottom every year with only a few, generally minor changes. Suggests the track plays some part!

 

Ok it PL and it's a few years old now but it proves a point.

 

How do you expect colourblind people to understand that?

[SCB]

 

 

How do you expect colourblind people to understand that?

TBH I don't expect many people at all to understand its

[Kester]

TBH I don't expect many people at all to understand its

I'm sure I've seen it on display at the Tate Modern.

[Gavan]

Gosh there is some guff written about tracks.

 

Truly top class riders can ride anywhere - fact. they might not like it but they ride it.

There are tracks that have more home track advantage as they are not totally conventional. However i firmly believe it is down to the class of rider that makes the home track adavantage seem much more at some places.

 

Tai Woffinden although brilliant round Wolves would after a few meetings be brilliant around any home track

Someone like Buckzowski wouldnt ever be as good at Lakeside or Eastbourne as he is at Peterborough

 

Mark Loram - someone you would class as a flat out true racer hated the Peterborough track but loved Eastbourne and Lakeside because they posed a greater challenge for him.

 

We are obsessed in this country with speed = good racing. It doesnt.

 

2 evenly matched teams on a track with dirt on provides great racing.

 

Peterborough is the best race track in the country without question but the meeting on sky against Lakeside was boring as it was so one sided. Put Peterborough v Swindon on it would probably be a cracker.

Ive also seen some great meetings at Lakeside

 

Lakeside Eastbourne and Peterborough are tracks notorious for having 'track specialists'

[Gavan]

What nonsense? Physically demanding?

 

Big tracks are more physically demanding!

do you actually know anything!

 

if you think it is physically more demanding to open the throttle and point the bike (Peterborough) then to be turning the bike on a sixpence on a tight track then buddy you need to do some research!

 

Ask the riders which drains them more!! Mark Loram will tell you!