Rules Are A Joke

[skeletor]

Thanks again but to be honest you must be one big Saddo haven't you got anything else to do on a Saturday night??

Not since the Circus closed down . Why are you on here on a Saturday night ?are you sad as well . Thought someone as young as you would be on the piss ? Edited August 3, 2013 by The Clown

[Grachan]

Interesting to see the discussion about the Swindon v Peterborough match and how the TR or TS would have affected the scoring.

 

I reckon that using the old TS rule Peterborough would have gained little advantage and it could have been a draw.

 

Suppose Peterborough use Bjerre for Fisher in heat 8 and Bjerre wins. That makes it 26-22 to Swindon.

 

Going into heat 12 it's 36-30 to Swindon. Hougards can't come in to heat 12 for Fisher, becauyse Fisher was replaced in heat 8. So that would probably be a 3-3 to Swindon, making it 39-33. Peterborough then gain another 6 points over the final 3 heats, making it 45-45.

 

The big question, though, is would Hougard have come in elsewhere for an extra ride. Heat 10 for Buckowski maybe? So that could have had a further effect on the result and maybe given Peterborough a win still.

 

Then again, he might have touched the tapes or fallen off. You never know! Or got beat and finished at the back. Or maybe that would have happend to Bjerre in heat 8 and Swindon would have won. Or maybe my auntie is my uncle.

 

But the general gist is that in a straight swap of the 2 rules it's a draw.

[EnglishRoundabout]

Not good really ER is it? oh well hope you are still upbeat after Thursday a shock defeat . But the better side won on the night,are you still upbeat for the season or not? you are more positive than most!

Still positive Sid. See Peterborough v Swindon post.

[BWitcher]

You went last night? a simple question would Swindon have lost that meeting last night without the stupid rule think carefully.?

 

Not good really ER is it? oh well hope you are still upbeat after Thursday a shock defeat . But the better side won on the night,are you still upbeat for the season or not? you are more positive than most!

 

Glad you've had a careful think Sidney about your ranting the other night and realised, the better side won on the night.

 

Good lad.

Edited August 4, 2013 by BWitcher

[EnglishRoundabout]

Glad you've had a careful think Sidney about your ranting the other night and realised, the better side won on the night.

 

Good lad.

You are such a tease......

[stratton]

 

 

 

 

Glad you've had a careful think Sidney about your ranting the other night and realised, the better side won on the night.

 

Good lad.

Rant hardly did i not say the better side won ENDLESS times? You would of been a great politician twisting things to suit your own end.Grachan has just posted a great post but we won't go into that if you are struggling i can send you some DVDs of LIVE speedway you can't keep relying on here say and the Speedway star.!!

[BWitcher]

Rant hardly did i not say the better side won ENDLESS times? You would of been a great politician twisting things to suit your own end.Grachan has just posted a great post but we won't go into that if you are struggling i can send you some DVDs of LIVE speedway you can't keep relying on here say and the Speedway star.!!

 

Not on this planet you didn't.. you were ranting on about the old rule being more fair, then asked the question would Swindon have lost without 'the stupid rule'.. not twisting.. your words. You didn't like the answer so went off on one sadly.

 

No idea what your last comment has to do with anything at all.

 

Anyway Sidders, there's a fair chance Swindon/Wolves might be clashing in the playoffs, lets hope for 2 cracking meetings and enjoy what the sport should really be about, two teams giving their all in front of a big crowd.

[stratton]

 

 

Not on this planet you didn't.. you were ranting on about the old rule being more fair, then asked the question would Swindon have lost without 'the stupid rule'.. not twisting.. your words. You didn't like the answer so went off on one sadly.

 

No idea what your last comment has to do with anything at all.

 

Anyway Sidders, there's a fair chance Swindon/Wolves might be clashing in the playoffs, lets hope for 2 cracking meetings and enjoy what the sport should really be about, two teams giving their all in front of a big crowd.

Was not ranting about the defeat couldn't care less really good racing that's all i am bothered about.Have a look at Grachans post he puts across a strong case the result was right the other night.BUT the new rule had a big say in the outcome i just wish Batch had not had a ef.If you get Swindon in the play/ offs if you are there i will buy you a pint no problem you do bug me sometimes but i respect your opinion .and you don't seem like a bad lad!! Edited August 4, 2013 by sidney

[skeletor]

Interesting to see the discussion about the Swindon v Peterborough match and how the TR or TS would have affected the scoring.

 

I reckon that using the old TS rule Peterborough would have gained little advantage and it could have been a draw.

 

Suppose Peterborough use Bjerre for Fisher in heat 8 and Bjerre wins. That makes it 26-22 to Swindon.

 

Going into heat 12 it's 36-30 to Swindon. Hougards can't come in to heat 12 for Fisher, becauyse Fisher was replaced in heat 8. So that would probably be a 3-3 to Swindon, making it 39-33. Peterborough then gain another 6 points over the final 3 heats, making it 45-45.

 

The big question, though, is would Hougard have come in elsewhere for an extra ride. Heat 10 for Buckowski maybe? So that could have had a further effect on the result and maybe given Peterborough a win still.

 

Then again, he might have touched the tapes or fallen off. You never know! Or got beat and finished at the back. Or maybe that would have happend to Bjerre in heat 8 and Swindon would have won. Or maybe my auntie is my uncle.

 

But the general gist is that in a straight swap of the 2 rules it's a draw.

How can fisher be in heat 8 and 12 if riding at 2 . try again Edited August 4, 2013 by The Clown

[moxey63]

If questions exist about the fairness of the Golden Double against the Tac Sub rule, and that somebody on this forum has worked out they are equal, then why piddle about with speedway's long-standing scoring sytsem?

 

I never said the Golden Double was unfair - although at times it shows the clear light of day that riders throw races (not good at all) - and I have memories of the times the Golden Double that make the sport to seem silly (even to the long-in-the-tooth observer) and strays into the realms of it not being serious.

 

I can't think of a time I remember the TS rule bringing speedway down to the levels that the GD has and questioning some of the riders’ ethics.

Edited August 4, 2013 by moxey63

[orion]

If questions exist about the fairness of the Golden Double against the Tac Sub rule, and that somebody on this forum has worked out they are equal, then why piddle about with speedway's long-standing scoring sytsem?

 

I never said the Golden Double was unfair - although at times it shows the clear light of day that riders throw races (not good at all) - and I have memories of the times the Golden Double that make the sport to seem silly (even to the long-in-the-tooth observer) and strays into the realms of it not being serious.

 

I can't think of a time I remember the TS rule bringing speedway down to the levels that the GD has and questioning some of the riders’ ethics.

 

First of all the guy who work out it was a draw had all the facts wrong so in fact it was a Away win still ...it's quite clear why they piddle about with the old system as it cost to much to pay riders who were on high pay who were replaceing low paid riders . Thou in the World cup we have seen riders let others go past so there team can use a joker I can't remember that happening in The El, first of all the riders would be losing points money and even it has happened I sure there was plenty of times under the old rules when teams fell 6 points behind on purpose so they could used a tac sub or sometimes a double tac sub .

[BWitcher]

If questions exist about the fairness of the Golden Double against the Tac Sub rule, and that somebody on this forum has worked out they are equal, then why piddle about with speedway's long-standing scoring sytsem?

 

I never said the Golden Double was unfair - although at times it shows the clear light of day that riders throw races (not good at all) - and I have memories of the times the Golden Double that make the sport to seem silly (even to the long-in-the-tooth observer) and strays into the realms of it not being serious.

 

I can't think of a time I remember the TS rule bringing speedway down to the levels that the GD has and questioning some of the riders’ ethics.

 

They aren't equal.

 

SCB explained in his post, there was far more 'manipulating of races' in the past in order to get a tac sub in the next than ever there is now.

 

So if its 'fairness' you are looking at, the current system is fairer.

If its 'manipulation' you are looking at, the current system has less.

If its 'costs' the current system is cheaper.

If its 'tactics (some will call it manipulation)' the old system was better.

 

Despite the above, I prefer the old system, but I don't try and justify by claiming things that aren't true.

Edited August 4, 2013 by BWitcher

[moxey63]

So, our bright-thinking promoters attempt to reduce costs by banishing the Tac Sub rules to history. But they continue having the money-munching races of Heats 13 and 15, where top riders are given at least one extra ride than is needed or the sport can afford.

 

I too prefer the Tac Sub to the Golden Double. In fact, I prefer toothache to the Golden Double... or even having swine flu.

Edited August 4, 2013 by moxey63

[Grachan]

How can fisher be in heat 8 and 12 if riding at 2 . try again

 

You're right. It was heat 11.

 

Anyway, changing it from heat 11 to heat 12 makes it maybe 44-46, bearing in mind Bachelor had an ef in heat 11 so Fisher would have got at least a point.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Grachan

[orion]

So, our bright-thinking promoters attempt to reduce costs by banishing the Tac Sub rules to history. But they continue having the money-munching races of Heats 13 and 15, where top riders are given at least one extra ride than is needed or the sport can afford.

 

I too prefer the Tac Sub to the Golden Double. In fact, I prefer toothache to the Golden Double... or even having swine flu.

Was there no heat 13 in the old days then ? you may prefer the old tac rule but the point you were trying to make that somehow it was fairer when of course when you look at the facts it is not the case

 

 

 

You're right. It was heat 11.

 

Anyway, changing it from heat 11 to heat 12 makes it maybe 44-46, bearing in mind Bachelor had an ef in heat 11 so Fisher would have got at least a point.

Fisher would have got two points the fact remains it's still away win old rules or new rules

[moxey63]

Without having to re-read all the posts, I can't recollect saying the old tac sub was fairer.

 

And, yes, there was heat 13 in the old days (that's why it was 13 heats) but there wasn't heats 14 nor 15. And remember, we have also had meetings consisting of 18 heats since the 13 heats were sent to heaven.

 

Speedway being speedway, I have never known an attempt to try and cut costs by giving the top earners more rides... nor have I heard of trying to cut costs by increasing the amount of races that promoters have to pay for.

 

It's like going to the barbers for a haircut but he cuts it longer than you went in with.

 

Thou in the World cup we have seen riders let others go past so there team can use a joker I can't remember that happening in The El, first of all the riders would be losing points money and even it has happened I sure there was plenty of times under the old rules when teams fell 6 points behind on purpose so they could used a tac sub or sometimes a double tac sub .

 

So, riders wouldn't allow opponents to go passed them - in order for the GD to be used - because they would lose money by doing so. But you believe riders let opponents passed in TS days. Didn't they lose money then?

 

Swerving this particular subject for one moment.... speedway - whether in the old TS days or the GD ones - does leave itself open to race-throwing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't one particular side a couple of years ago have so many engine failures and race retirements in just one match (average clipping?) that an investigation was launched?

Edited August 4, 2013 by moxey63

[BWitcher]

 

 

Swerving this particular subject for one moment....

The tings is, speedway - whether in the old TS days or the GD ones - does leave itself open to race-throwing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't one particular side a couple of years ago have so many engine failures and race retirements in just one match (average clipping?) that an investigation was launched?

 

That team operates to a different rulebook though

[moxey63]

That team operates to a different rulebook though

 

Win at all costs... even damaging the sport in the meantime.

 

I just want the sport to be serious, its rules water-tight.

 

Can't see it ever happening though.

 

In a way, especially how the sport was clobbered by The Sunday People in 1984, doesn't it make you feel relieved that the media doesn't follow or cover the sport. A few mates easing off in World Championship rounds may have been a starter dish had the media picked up on race-throwing in league competition.

Edited August 4, 2013 by moxey63

[TesarRacing]

Can someone please clarify one thing please. Are the rules/laws much different Now than say in 1977 when I first started going. I was 15 then with raging hormones ,wide flares and no brain and yet It was all so simple (or was it?) Maybe time has clouded my memory.

I am 'bumping' this question up as I think, getting back to the original topic title, this is a good question. I don't know the answer and I would be interested to hear responses. Apologies it it has been answered somewhere in the 5 pages of arguing!!!

[BWitcher]

 

I am 'bumping' this question up as I think, getting back to the original topic title, this is a good question. I don't know the answer and I would be interested to hear responses. Apologies it it has been answered somewhere in the 5 pages of arguing!!!

 

They will have evolved, as they do in all sports.. some will also have changed due to technology/environmental issues. No doubt increased Health & Safety will have added a few in too.

 

But the core rules, those that govern the on track action haven't changed much, its still 4 riders over 4 laps, 3-2-1-0.