Rules Are A Joke

[Sotonian]

Its still 4 riders over 4 laps. What else matters as a spectacle?

It is now but do you recall when it was over 6 laps in Heat 15? That was a fundamental change that I was pleased to see the back of.

[BWitcher]

 

 

THAT is your opinion BW - it certainly isn't mine. I thought it a very good Post and said so. I assume I am entitled to an opinion or are you saying that you have a monopoly on opinions.

 

You are of course, so feel free to quantify your opinion. Remember the context.. Moxey claims someone from 30 years ago would not be able to understand a speedway meeting if they attended now. I've asked for what rules/regulations would make that not possible...Also remember the claim is other sports have not changed their rules..

 

I don't see anything on that list that would cause the fundamental understanding of the sport to be different.

 

 

 

 

It is now but do you recall when it was over 6 laps in Heat 15? That was a fundamental change that I was pleased to see the back of.

 

Ah yes, I would imagine that would be most confusing to any newcomers. Their ability to count past 4 has to be considered.

 

It's amusing isn't it, one of the common gripes is speedway doesn't provide enough value (i.e. enough of it) and we get an extra 2 laps in a meet and its a negative.

 

Football has tinkered with its rules in similar ways.. Extra Time.. Golden Goals.. Straight to penalties dependant upon the competition.. doesn't seem to 'confuse' fans.

 

There you go it must be me then. Everything is fine the rules are really simple and nothing needs to change. Let's all be honest the way the rules are manipulated every year to suit a team makes a mockery of the sport. IMO

 

Now you have it.

 

The issue isn't the rules. Yes they could be improved, but 95% of them need to be there for a reason. There aren't too many.

 

The issue quite simply is promoters manipulating them to their own advantage and using the get out of 'best interests of speedway' to get away with it.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2013 by BWitcher

[moxey63]

Enough is enough, already.

 

Other sports probably give any proposed new rules etc trial periods. I don't know all the sports that have introduced new ones, and maybe they have made the sports better along the way, like moving at the tapes in speedway (although scoffed at at the time) has made starts better than when riders could move.

 

But have any of the other changes made the sport better - meeting format changes, team strengths, six-lap nominated heats....

 

Speedway, and all its competitions that were short lived, rushes headlong into new rules without sampling them first, perhaps in start-of-season matches or spare dates.

 

The match points system now just makes things complicated. The old aggregate bonus points did nothing whatsoever to alter the final league standings, therefore it wasn't needed for the two decades it stood.

[Vincent Blachshadow]

Enough is enough, already.

 

Other sports probably give any proposed new rules etc trial periods. I don't know all the sports that have introduced new ones, and maybe they have made the sports better along the way, like moving at the tapes in speedway (although scoffed at at the time) has made starts better than when riders could move.

 

But have any of the other changes made the sport better - meeting format changes, team strengths, six-lap nominated heats....

 

Speedway, and all its competitions that were short lived, rushes headlong into new rules without sampling them first, perhaps in start-of-season matches or spare dates.

 

The match points system now just makes things complicated. The old aggregate bonus points did nothing whatsoever to alter the final league standings, therefore it wasn't needed for the two decades it stood.

Swindon fans might not agree here!

[BWitcher]

The match points system now just makes things complicated. The old aggregate bonus points did nothing whatsoever to alter the final league standings, therefore it wasn't needed for the two decades it stood.

 

Why does it?

 

Its not complicated at all. Do you think speedway is the only sport with such a system?

 

Rugby Union has something very similar.

 

Cricket has a far more complex scoring system in county cricket.

[SCB]

I'm going to put my comments in red.

Which Tyre you can use In what way does that efect the fans?

 

Points limit changing year after year So what? Once at a meeting it makes little difference. The floating fans doesn't give a rubbish.

 

Helmet Colours You're right, white to green and then back to white again, the sport never recovered! Big like Manchester United and that grey kit.

 

KO Cup changing format or not running at all An annoyance I agree. A pointless change for changes sake.

 

Silencers I doubt many fans (by that I mean 90%) know a bloody thing about the silencers. 50% probably couldn't point it out on the bike!

 

Air fences Damn those airfences, they brought them in, I went to a meeting and I got all confused.

 

Tactical Rides It was a change, it did bug me for a few years they kept changing how many points you had to be behind to use one. Fair point.

 

When Tacticals can be used Sort fo agree. I prefer the old tac sub, was much more fun. But weirdly, not fairer!

 

Less meetings You're at a meeting, you see a great race. Then you realise it's just not the same because theres only 16 meetings now and not 30 like there used to be. Minor irrelevance. I'd say it's quality vs quantity but the quality is even lower lol

 

Unbalanced fixtures Agreed. A pet hate of mine.

 

Guests Difficult to avoid but they've been around now how long? Certainly to me it's forever and I'm 28 years old.

 

The thrill of a one day World Final Maybe thats gone. But now we get 10 of them a year on Eurosport. I'm not convinced it's either good or bad.

 

Regulations restricting 8+ riders Not sure I liked it but, it did do the job it set out to do. But again, once at a meeting, does a fan need to know this or understand it?

 

Regulations restricting who you can sign as top 2 As above

 

Regulations say who must be at reserve It's been the lowest two riders since time began. Not hard to grasp. two lowest averaged rider are reserve. Think my non-speedway interested sister can grasp that one.

 

Assessed averages dropping from 6.00 down to 4.00 Technicalities, the people on the terracing don't care about average. Only a select group of geeks on the internet care.

 

Second half racing There is some, or there isn't. If there is it's 3-2-1-0 points over 4 laps like every other race.

 

Junior meetings As above.

 

Number of tracks in the top league Linked to the number of meetings. Doesn't really matter how many clubs there are. Speedway is still speedway.

 

Golden Helmet Having it probably caused more confusion. An extra race, with only 2 riders? I thought speedway was 4 riders? And they raced for their team?

 

League Bonus Points Gone for a better, easier system.

 

Averages (current - rolling) As above, its only a handful of geeks who care about averages. a few more will read them and see higher = better. But donet understand them, don't wnat to.

 

Averages (inc P - not BP) As above

 

Premier League / Division One / Elite League ... Name change Welcome to sport. They're all at it. Championship and Div 1 being 2nd and 3rd leagues in English football!!!

 

Rider Availability ...... riding in so many countries / competitions An annoyance. But how do you fit that in with your issue of less meetings?

[moxey63]

Why does it?

 

Its not complicated at all. Do you think speedway is the only sport with such a system?

 

Rugby Union has something very similar.

 

Cricket has a far more complex scoring system in county cricket.

 

BWitcher

 

Your defence of speedway is commendable.

 

You really are clinging on and I understand my anti-speedway rules stance is akin to me calling a member of your family names.

 

Please let me explain, as regards the other sports you keep throwing into the discussion ring.

 

I don't follow other sports (other than football). One of the reasons I stopped attending speedway was... well, the final straw I believe was the double-points thing.

 

I am glad – even indebted to you, forever – that you have pointed that other sports also make regular rule changes. I will now also stay clear of the ones you mentioned. Thank you for the general information.

 

I would stop watching football, let me add... when the time arrives that goals count as double when a team falls behind, an artificial way to make it a closer match than it is.

 

Not that I see a serious sport – as football is - doing this. That’s why I feel I am not wasting my time by watching football.

 

As people use the football similarity with speedway too frequently on here, I raise a scenario where - if football introduced Golden Joker Goal similar to speedway's, a player effortlessly put the ball into the back of his own onion bag, so that his team could use the Golden Joker Goal.

 

Can’t see it happening.

 

Imagine how the media would take a sport, say, if Manchester City goalkeeper purposely backheeled a goal or so into his own net, enabling his team play the GJG (that's Golden Joker Goal). Adding further insult, Hart tries to make it look unfortunate, takes off his boots in frustration/disgust and throws them onto the touchline as he ams it up.

 

It wouldn't happen.

 

That, my friend, is why speedway isn't taken seriously... why many of us don't feel it's honest anymore.

Edited August 2, 2013 by moxey63

[The White Knight]

BWitcher

 

Your defence of speedway is commendable.

 

You really are clinging on and I understand my anti-speedway rules stance is akin to me calling a member of your family names.

 

Please let me explain, as regards the other sports you keep throwing into the discussion ring.

 

I don't follow other sports (other than football). One of the reasons I stopped attending speedway was... well, the final straw I believe was the double-points thing.

 

I am glad – even indebted to you, forever – that you have pointed that other sports also make regular rule changes. I will now also stay clear of the ones you mentioned. Thank you for the general information.

 

I would stop watching football, let me add... when the time arrives that goals count as double when a team falls behind, an artificial way to make it a closer match than it is.

 

Not that I see a serious sport – as football is - doing this. That’s why I feel I am not wasting my time by watching football.

 

As people use the football similarity with speedway too frequently on here, I raise a scenario where - if football introduced Golden Joker Goal similar to speedway's, a player effortlessly put the ball into the back of his own onion bag, so that his team could use the Golden Joker Goal.

 

Can’t see it happening.

 

Imagine how the media would take a sport, say, if Manchester City goalkeeper purposely backheeled a goal or so into his own net, enabling his team play the GJG (that's Golden Joker Goal).

 

That, my friend, is why speedway isn't taken seriously... and why many of us just don't feel it's honest.

 

I think THAT more or less proves my point (no pun intended).

 

QUOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDUM!!!

[Tsunami]

Swindon fans might not agree here!

Agreed. Bjarne against Paul Fry at Swindon, I was there and Exeter took the title on aggregate. Try also 2002 when Sheffield pipped us on aggregate points,(robbing us of back to back league titles) and we had also won more meetings than Sheffield. New rules that are in force now is so much more fairer and a lot of the massive home win teams had to change their tracks, and/or sign riders who had the potential to be better riders away than at home,

[rob tatum]

Can someone please clarify one thing please. Are the rules/laws much different Now than say in 1977 when I first started going. I was 15 then with raging hormones ,wide flares and no brain and yet It was all so simple (or was it?) Maybe time has clouded my memory.

[orion]

As people use the football similarity with speedway too frequently on here, I raise a scenario where - if football introduced Golden Joker Goal similar to speedway's, a player effortlessly put the ball into the back of his own onion bag, so that his team could use the Golden Joker Goal.

 

Can’t see it happening.

 

 

What about if football got away goals to count for double if the scores were level ... nah that would never happen Edited August 2, 2013 by orion

[BWitcher]

 

 

BWitcher

 

Your defence of speedway is commendable.

 

You really are clinging on and I understand my anti-speedway rules stance is akin to me calling a member of your family names.

 

Please let me explain, as regards the other sports you keep throwing into the discussion ring.

 

I don't follow other sports (other than football). One of the reasons I stopped attending speedway was... well, the final straw I believe was the double-points thing.

 

I am glad – even indebted to you, forever – that you have pointed that other sports also make regular rule changes. I will now also stay clear of the ones you mentioned. Thank you for the general information.

 

I would stop watching football, let me add... when the time arrives that goals count as double when a team falls behind, an artificial way to make it a closer match than it is.

 

Not that I see a serious sport – as football is - doing this. That’s why I feel I am not wasting my time by watching football.

 

As people use the football similarity with speedway too frequently on here, I raise a scenario where - if football introduced Golden Joker Goal similar to speedway's, a player effortlessly put the ball into the back of his own onion bag, so that his team could use the Golden Joker Goal.

 

Can’t see it happening.

 

Imagine how the media would take a sport, say, if Manchester City goalkeeper purposely backheeled a goal or so into his own net, enabling his team play the GJG (that's Golden Joker Goal). Adding further insult, Hart tries to make it look unfortunate, takes off his boots in frustration/disgust and throws them onto the touchline as he ams it up.

 

It wouldn't happen.

 

That, my friend, is why speedway isn't taken seriously... why many of us don't feel it's honest anymore.

 

So basically you're now admitting you are wrong Moxey.

 

Your whole argument was there are too many rules in speedway and other sports don't change them. Having been shown to be woefully wrong on that point you've no gone back to the old chestnut of the tactical rules aren't fair. Yet the old, MORE unfair rule was great. Marvellous.

 

The simple fact is, the old tac sub was just as ridiculous, just as unfair as the current ruling.

 

I'd quit now Moxey.

 

As for me 'defending' the sport, that's quite ironic when I'm accused of quite the opposite by many.

 

I'm glad we got to the bottom of this anyway and you accept finally the sport hasn't got too many rules.

 

It's interesting as well that you keep mentioning football.. I repeat, the basic game of football that the fan watches has changed far more radically than speedway.

Edited August 2, 2013 by BWitcher

[moxey63]

Can someone please clarify one thing please. Are the rules/laws much different Now than say in 1977 when I first started going. I was 15 then with raging hormones ,wide flares and no brain and yet It was all so simple (or was it?) Maybe time has clouded my memory.

 

One of the things I can't quite follow, are riders racing for many different clubs. I can't keep up with that. Speedway must have been like this during the war years, when tracks operated using the riders that turned up on the day.

 

As for flares... how wide were yours. I had a really bad period of always catching mine in my bicycle chain. That was it then, they were ruined.

 

So basically you're now admitting you are wrong Moxey.

 

Your whole argument was there are too many rules in speedway and other sports don't change them. Having been shown to be woefully wrong on that point you've no gone back to the old chestnut of the tactical rules aren't fair. Yet the old, MORE unfair rule was great. Marvellous.

 

I'd quit now Moxey.

 

BWitcher

 

No wonder your parents are threatening to kick you out.

 

I feel speedway's rules are silly and you ant me to tell you which rules. I tell you, then you say I'm using the same reasons.

 

Hold on a minute... someone's on the phone. Can you wait here till I get back?

Edited August 2, 2013 by moxey63

[BWitcher]

BWitcher

 

No wonder your parents are threatening to kick you out.

 

I feel speedway's rules are silly and you ant me to tell you which rules. I tell you, then you say I'm using the same reasons.

 

Hold on a minute... someone's on the phone. Can you wait here till I get back?

 

Correct Moxey, you keep telling us this, but the only rule you have come up with is one that has been around in one form or another for the past 50 years.

 

Were you slamming the tac sub rules in the 70's?

[orion]

Correct Moxey, you keep telling us this, but the only rule you have come up with is one that has been around in one form or another for the past 50 years.

 

Were you slamming the tac sub rules in the 70's?

Spot on ..tells us he won't go to speedway because of the double points but was more than happy to go when the old tac rule was in place what is more unfair and stupid than the double points ever was .

[moxey63]

Correct Moxey, you keep telling us this, but the only rule you have come up with is one that has been around in one form or another for the past 50 years.

 

Were you slamming the tac sub rules in the 70's?

 

Hi, it was the wrong number, sorry I kept you...

 

 

Can you hold on again, someone at the door now....

[stratton]

Spot on ..tells us he won't go to speedway because of the double points but was more than happy to go when the old tac rule was in place what is more unfair and stupid than the double points ever was .

I don't think so! i didn't hear many supporters complain then when the old rule was in place not like now.Its like Man Utd being 2.0 up cruising and saying oh well we will give the opposition a chance we will go down to 8 men? Sport is special can be brutal and unfair at times but you have to have a winner and a loser.I have over the years seen thrashing,s i see a really good Reading side get murdered 57.23 at Belle Vue 1983/84? but it was a good meeting some great racing.Why the obsession of trying to keep things close that is the romance for me of building a side at the start of the year and seeing it blossom later in the season.

[BWitcher]

I don't think so! i didn't hear many supporters complain then when the old rule was in place not like now.Its like Man Utd being 2.0 up cruising and saying oh well we will give the opposition a chance we will go down to 8 men? Sport is special can be brutal and unfair at times but you have to have a winner and a loser.I have over the years seen thrashing,s i see a really good Reading side get murdered 57.23 at Belle Vue 1983/84? but it was a good meeting some great racing.Why the obsession of trying to keep things close that is the romance for me of building a side at the start of the year and seeing it blossom later in the season.

 

You realise you are defeating your own argument?

 

 

[stratton]

 

 

You realise you are defeating your own argument?

No and i can't be assed going around in circles with you!Quite simple the old rule for me was not perfect but at least i knew 90 per cent of the time the better side won now well this stupid rule turns everything on its head anyway go and argue with someone else annoy Moxey.

[orion]

I don't think so! i didn't hear many supporters complain then when the old rule was in place not like now.Its like Man Utd being 2.0 up cruising and saying oh well we will give the opposition a chance we will go down to 8 men? Sport is special can be brutal and unfair at times but you have to have a winner and a loser.I have over the years seen thrashing,s i see a really good Reading side get murdered 57.23 at Belle Vue 1983/84? but it was a good meeting some great racing.Why the obsession of trying to keep things close that is the romance for me of building a side at the start of the year and seeing it blossom later in the season.

indeed you never that what makes people moaning about the rule all the more stupid now ...Please don't tell me you thought the old rule was fairer ? Are the saying the old rule never gave a team to come back if they were in football terms 2 nil down or that the rules were not in place to make the scores closer ? Tell me in that Match you saw did reading used tac subs ?

 

No and i can't be assed going around in circles with you!Quite simple the old rule for me was not perfect but at least i knew 90 per cent of the time the better side won now well this stupid rule turns everything on its head anyway go and argue with someone else annoy Moxey.

Can't wait to see how you explain that ? Tac subs had more chance of making the worst side win than the new rule ever had ...you won't being able to argue because you can't because as no logic will in a million years can make the old rule fairer .

Edited August 2, 2013 by orion