BWitcher Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Thanks for confirming TNT. Nothing has changed in terms of what really matters. 4 riders racing over 4 laps and anyone who went 30 years ago would know exactly what was happening if they went now. As for your 'try to explain' certain things at the bottom.. why would a 'first time' even be interested in such complexities? I wouldn't be telling someone watching a football match, "You see the left back there, he's not ours really, just on loan for a month". It's irrelevant to the game. All the stuff you have listed, you can make similar lists for most sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 I wouldn't be telling someone watching a football match, "You see the left back there, he's not ours really, just on loan for a month". It's irrelevant to the game. Motor Sports in general are always changing things but I would not go to three football matches in three days and see the same player playing in all three matches for different teams and then the following week see Wayne Rooney replacing him as he has a prior booking with Burton Albion. Football = 90 mins - 2 teams of 11 Speedway = 15 heats - 2 teams of 7 However it used to be 13 heats, was 18 one year and some weeks it's 6 v 6 with three or four of the twelve riding for another team within 48 hours. Next year looks to be interesting if certain rumours / whispers come true and there will be hopefully a number of changes made that benefits the long term stability of the sport in Britain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Sorry mate, poor reply to a good post. Somebody has to progress in a cup-tie. yes they do however it should be done by one team scoring more goals than the other... simply saying 'you scored more at their ground' therefore you win is nonsense, especially when sometimes the team that qualifies is the one that gets an extra 30 mins in extra time when playing away in the second leg, meaning one team gets 90 mins 'away' to score a goal and one gets 120.... it would be like, in the event of a tie, adding 5 heats to the second leg of the speedway knockout cup, and then after the 20 heats saying the away team in the second leg scored more away points even though the tie finished equal overall.. imagine if speedway did that the vitriol the bspa would get???... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Got to agree with Bwitcher on this one. Its not the rules that are the problem it is the ability or the willingness of promoters to manipulate them which is the problem. Your average fan of any sport only really understands the basic rules of the sport. The basic rules of speedway have not changed that much over the 45 years I have been watching the sport. Team made up of 7 riders, scoring 3,2,1 points depending on position in the race. Four riders in a race and they have to turn left at the end of each straight for four laps of the track. What more do you need to know. Okay so a few things have been tried on double points, tactical substitutes, etc, but not that much. And let's face it for most casual fans they want to see a hard fought match, close scores and possibly a last heat decider. Does a new fan of the sport want to see the home riders winning every race, races over by the first bend and the matches effectively over by the 8th or 9th heat. Of course not. Would you prefer that we go back to riders rolling at the starts and the top riders picking the best gates every race? Rules governing the make up the teams are the ones that change the most (or get manipulated the most), but most casual fans are not that bothered about how the team gets put together. Who really understands the new financial guidelines coming into football as regards who a club is able to sign. I even seem to recall even footbal trying a golden goal rule in some matches and how satisfactory is it to decide a cup final on penalties!! However, the new world of TV money has forced all sports to change (rightly or wrongly, but that's life). How complicated are the rules for Formula 1 racing? They change the rules governing the engines and car design every season, Who understands all these rules? However, the sport is still as popular as ever. It is only the fanatics of any sport that want to get into the detail and the pureists who inisist on resisting any change. Sport will always change as new ideas come along or the world in which they operate changes. Stop complaining and running down the sport we all love. If you don't understand the rules then buy a rule book or ask someone. "Rolling starts" gate picking and tape touching Yes Please !!!! loved it and the oid 70's T/S rules while your at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dump that clutch Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Next year looks to be interesting if certain rumours / whispers come true and there will be hopefully a number of changes made that benefits the long term stability of the sport in Britain. please elaborate.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCOGNITO Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 it would be like, in the event of a tie, adding 5 heats to the second leg of the speedway knockout cup, and then after the 20 heats saying the away team in the second leg scored more away points even though the tie finished equal overall.. imagine if speedway did that the vitriol the bspa would get???... So that's 30 point's extra to pay out which could be anywhere around £10, 000 Good plan if you are Richard Branson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 yes they do however it should be done by one team scoring more goals than the other... simply saying 'you scored more at their ground' therefore you win is nonsense, especially when sometimes the team that qualifies is the one that gets an extra 30 mins in extra time when playing away in the second leg, meaning one team gets 90 mins 'away' to score a goal and one gets 120.... it would be like, in the event of a tie, adding 5 heats to the second leg of the speedway knockout cup, and then after the 20 heats saying the away team in the second leg scored more away points even though the tie finished equal overall.. imagine if speedway did that the vitriol the bspa would get???... Is that not already happening in speedway? Has it not happened before? Peterborough 45 Birmingham 45. Peterborough 1 point, Birmingham 2 points. Remember the bonus point? We got more at your place than you got at our's so we get the extra point. And that's not just a tie-break, it can decide play-off qualification or even the Championship. How about the old tac ride - Panthers' won the Championship utilising extra points never available to the opposition. At least both teams have the extra 30 minutes when extra-time is played. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 The rules aren't the problem. It's the lack of enforcing them correctly and the constant attempt at manipulation that are the issue. That is the root of the problem. When a certain rule is enforced/applied inconsistently it leads to the perception that the rule is at fault, rather than those who did or did not enforce it correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfromcov Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 to be fair on the rules they have been designed to be full of holes, it needs a complete review and wouldnt take long. they remind me of windows XP, patched and patched after new holes have been found. i dont see why the rules have to change every year. the team building limit quite clealy should change and is up to the promoters dont have a problem with that and regarding the machinery what is or isnt allowed, but appart from that the core 95% should never need to be changed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCOGNITO Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 please elaborate.... The main thing that seems to be that the sport could be taking a dramatic change next year to cut costs especially if the money coming in is cut by Sky not filming. This could see Elite League teams reduced to around 35 points and Premier League teams allowed to strengthen to complete in one big league Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brummie Boy Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 (edited) Last night I just happened to watch a bit of an interview on TV, it was with one of the past senior administrators of Rugby League in the UK. He mentioned how in his time the attendances have significantly increased at rugby league matches, now called the Super League, due to the modernisation of the sport. I thought I would take a quick look at whether RL have made many rule changes recently. See link to changes made for 2013: http://www.therfl.co...-2013-confirmed Read a couple of those and try and understand them. Funny these changes do not appear to be putting fans off the game, just the opposite, crowds are on the up. Super League is attracting national sponsors like Stobart's and Heinz. Sky sports televise matches and seem happy to continue. Speedway is like all sports, they have to change and innovate if they are to continue. Most of the major rule changes being complained about seem to relate to the double points rules and the league points system. However, these have been made to make the matches more entertaining and to keep the league title race alive for longer. This has been done mainly to try and bring more casual fans into the sport. I find the statement that fans have stopped attending speedway because they cannot understand the rules to be ridiculous. There are many reasons why attendances are falling, but I don't agree the rules are one of them. The only rule speedway has a problem with is the guest rule (and yes a new fan may find this strange), but this has been in existence for as long as I have been watching speedway and unfortunately there is no other answer to replace missing riders. The fact that riders are missing far too often is another matter. Edited August 2, 2013 by Brummie Boy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Wouldn't have thought rule changes stop people going so much, but it may stop new fans getting to grips with the rules and why riders ride for more than one team or in more than one league. Speedway is a great product but the costs of running at a high level have reached a level now that is hard to keep up with and if the sport does have to cut back and get back to basics by increasing the number of teams in one big league, then so be it. Hopefully some star riders will still ride here, but if current Premier Leagu teams can get a bit stronger with a 6+ rider and EL clubs have to cut back, then hopefully it will also mean more spaces for young British riders to get chances and the minimum average should be reduced to 2.00 for them i the points limit is cut down to 32 - 35 points per team.. Thankfully Wolves would be one of the teams that can use some of their own assets with averages nder six points a match like Proctor, Wells, Klindt, Haines, Morris, Thorssell, Aspgren etc while still keeping one of Tai or Freddie. It may not be what we all want, but if it means the sport is thriving in future years, sacrafices have to be made before its too late. Teams would have to be made up using EL averages to ensure any rider coming in at a later date has a realistic average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 In fairness, to watch speedway all you need to know is 15 heats, 4 laps. 3-2-10 points unless there is a TR. Team manager picks 2 rider for heat 15. Points limits and guests are extra that you can, if you need to, cope without. True. I've managed for the last 64 years being completely indifferent to any rules so I still enjoy the sport. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TesarRacing Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 I have been watching/supporting speedway for 41 years and i take a very simplistic views on the speedway rule book. To enjoy a speedway meeting I feel I need to know the rules that are specific to the running of the meeting itself. The rest of the rule book regarding the use of guests, points limits, averages, etc etc, I don't need to know as I don't see how it improves the experience of watching & supporting speedway. In fact, I think knowing too much of what a promotion/team manager can and can't do spoils the spectacle and maybe the use of forums and social networking sites have contributed to this. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Which Tyre you can use Points limit changing year after year Helmet Colours KO Cup changing format or not running at all Silencers Air fences Tactical Rides When Tacticals can be used Less meetings Unbalanced fixtures Guests The thrill of a one day World Final Regulations restricting 8+ riders Regulations restricting who you can sign as top 2 Regulations say who must be at reserve Assessed averages dropping from 6.00 down to 4.00 Second half racing Junior meetings Number of tracks in the top league Golden Helmet League Bonus Points Averages (current - rolling) Averages (inc P - not BP) Premier League / Division One / Elite League ... Name change Rider Availability ...... riding in so many countries / competitions I could probably add more but football is still 90 minutes, still home and away, still 11 v 11, players dont double up with Swindon & Man City etc etc. I love the sport and always will, but it is frustrating to see things change year after year and more than once to see a rule bought in only for teams to find loopholes and ruin the idea of the rule in the first place. The basics of football are pretty obvious to many but try explaining to a person that attends for the first time certain things. "We wear red and blue in each heat but the rider in red relly rides for another team, as does the rider in white" "We are not at full strength tonight as one rider that usually rides for us is riding at Edinburgh tonight" Thank you very much T.N.T. - I had planned on doing something like this for BeWitcher at the Weekend - you have saved me the trouble, and actually thought of more changes than I would have. Superb Post. :approve: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 BWitcher - How many times has speedway fiddled with its rules, say, over the past 30 years? Now, and see where I'm coming from here, how many times have serious sport messed around with their rules - football, tennis, rugby, even snakes and ladders. A sport is only taken as serious as its rules, and when you can bend them that sport stands up like a cheap Christmas card on top of a warm television set. rugby is constantly changing fundamental rules such as the tackled ball rule. every couple of years there seems to be quite a major changecwhich necessitates different tactics and skill sets. commentators, coaches and players often struggle to understand and or explain the rules. by contrast, id say the basics of speedway are unchanged. a fan who hsdnt watched speedway for 30 years could follow 99% of a speedway meeting today without any queries. rugby id say at least 25% of the game would be different. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TesarRacing Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 I have been watching/supporting speedway for 41 years and i take a very simplistic views on the speedway rule book. To enjoy a speedway meeting I feel I need to know the rules that are specific to the running of the meeting itself. The rest of the rule book regarding the use of guests, points limits, averages, etc etc, I don't need to know as I don't see how it improves the experience of watching & supporting speedway. In fact, I think knowing too much of what a promotion/team manager can and can't do spoils the spectacle and maybe the use of forums and social networking sites have contributed to this. Just to add to that. The only time it would be useful knowing the rule book a bit better would be to maximise my fantasy speedway teams!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Thank you very much T.N.T. - I had planned on doing something like this for BeWitcher at the Weekend - you have saved me the trouble, and actually thought of more changes than I would have. Superb Post. :approve: No it isn't a superb post at all WK. In fact it could quite easily be picked apart and a similar list created for many, many other sports. Nothing on there changes the fundamental basics of the sport. As I have said and others have confirmed, speedway as a spectacle has changed less than most other sports, particularly the main ones such as Football/Rugby. Its still 4 riders over 4 laps. What else matters as a spectacle? rugby is constantly changing fundamental rules such as the tackled ball rule. every couple of years there seems to be quite a major changecwhich necessitates different tactics and skill sets. commentators, coaches and players often struggle to understand and or explain the rules. by contrast, id say the basics of speedway are unchanged. a fan who hsdnt watched speedway for 30 years could follow 99% of a speedway meeting today without any queries. rugby id say at least 25% of the game would be different. Absolutely spot on. The game has changed radically. As has football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 No it isn't a superb post at all WK. In fact it could quite easily be picked apart and a similar list created for many, many other sports. Nothing on there changes the fundamental basics of the sport. As I have said and others have confirmed, speedway as a spectacle has changed less than most other sports, particularly the main ones such as Football/Rugby. Its still 4 riders over 4 laps. What else matters as a spectacle? Absolutely spot on. The game has changed radically. As has football. THAT is your opinion BW - it certainly isn't mine. I thought it a very good Post and said so. I assume I am entitled to an opinion or are you saying that you have a monopoly on opinions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champs99 Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 (edited) Let's all be honest the way the rules are manipulated every year to suit a team makes a mockery of the sport. IMO Sandhu and Frost made their stance 2 yrs ago and were treated as outcasts by their follow promoters. Those promoters deserve all the credit for the way the sport has developed since then. Sandhu has gone, Frost i expect to soon follow and the Elite league will be gone. Edited August 2, 2013 by champs99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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