moxey63 Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 I am afraid Young Moxey you are not really up to date with other sports. Over the last 50 years I would think there would hardly any sports that the rules have not changed or updated.It would be interesting if you would say a sport where the rules have not been altered. I would think Speedway would compare quite well with most sports. Maybe I am not fully up-to-date with other sport, granted, but I wasn't a regular on the terraces at the other sports to notice such changes. One of the reasons I don't attend speedway any longer... is because I couldn't be bothered keeping up with its needless little rule changes, that only people with too much time on their hands could be bothered to digest. I could list all speedway's rules changes, the ones I can remember, but the markings on my keyboard would begin to wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 Maybe I am not fully up-to-date with other sport, granted, but I wasn't a regular on the terraces at the other sports to notice such changes. One of the reasons I don't attend speedway any longer... is because I couldn't be bothered keeping up with its needless little rule changes, that only people with too much time on their hands could be bothered to digest. I could list all speedway's rules changes, the ones I can remember, but the markings on my keyboard would begin to wear. So you keep saying, but we are still waiting for ONE, besides the starts which I have given you as a freebie, that effects what you are actually watching on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 A lot of them are about the rules for bikes, technical stuff, what a referee has to do, what a clerk of the courses job is. All important stuff but stuff that frankly, nobody needs to worry about. They need to be there but not worried about by the fans. Rules 16 and 17 are the only 2 that matter. They related to guests, averages and riding order. I like my new rule, imagine watching all 4 riders fight over 3rd but trying to void last! Could be brilliant! I also suggest points for style and WOW-factor too. Didn't the Glasgow and Edinburgh riders try that in June 2012 at Armadale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) Avoiding the question again Moxey. You are claiming a fan from 30 years ago couldn't go to a speedway match now and understand what was happening. So tell me, aside from the starts, what else has changed that would mean they couldn't understand the racing on track? The FACTS are, when it boils down to what matters, what the punter is watching, speedway has changed far less in that time than Football, Rugby, Cricket, NFL, MLB, Tennis and many many other sports. I don't care about other sports, I thought I revealed that in an earlier post. Speedway is still four riders over four laps, can't argue with that, but everything else around it changes ever so much. If you just like speedway for watching the four laps, I suggest buying one of those wind up trainset. BWithcer, looking at the title of this thread, it says RULES ARE A JOKE. Discuss. Edited August 1, 2013 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Eye Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 I don't care about other sports, I thought I revealed that in an earlier post. Speedway is still four riders over four laps, can't argue with that, but everything else around it changes ever so much. If you just like speedway for watching the four laps, I suggest buying one of those wind up trainset. BWithcer, looking at the title of this thread, it say RULES ARE A JOKE. Discuss. When someone is as obsessed and as pedantic as you are with rules and regulations, then they will never enjoy what they are watching. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 Double Bloody Points. :mad: :mad: Not valid WK. We've already discussed the old tactical system was more unfair (which is the reason for you disliking it). You've also stated you held the old tactical rules in equal contempt. I don't care about other sports, I thought I revealed that in an earlier post. Speedway is still four riders over four laps, can't argue with that, but everything else around it changes ever so much. If you just like speedway for watching the four laps, I suggest buying one of those wind up trainset. BWithcer, looking at the title of this thread, it says RULES ARE A JOKE. Discuss. "If you just like speedway for watching the four laps, I suggest buying one of those wind up trainsets." Clearly I must be missing something here, perhaps others could fill me in, but what attracted me to the sport of speedway was, the four laps of speedway action. What provides me with the entertainment is the four laps of speedway action. I'd even go as far as to say that 99.99999999999% of speedway fans go to speedway for watching those 4 laps (x 15). Tell us Moxey, what are we missing? Again, you tell us, the rules are a joke.. which rule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 Not valid WK. We've already discussed the old tactical system was more unfair (which is the reason for you disliking it). You've also stated you held the old tactical rules in equal contempt. I do/did - but - you asked what spoils my enjoyment of Speedway BW, and I have told you. We don't need to go in to all this again - we will never agree on it. The Regulation makes me SO angry - I go to Speedway to be entertained NOT TO BE UPSET AND ANNOYED. I must be a right MUG - I pay good money to go to Speedway and get myself angry and upset. The Rule/Regulation ruins some Speedway Meetings for me. I cannot believe I am alone in this, and despite what some people say on here some Folk have stopped attending because of it. There ARE some weeks when I think that I will pack it in too, however, having Supported Speedway for almost Forty years I find it difficult to give it up. HOW SAD IS THAT? So there you are BW - I have answered YOUR question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 I do/did - but - you asked what spoils my enjoyment of Speedway BW, and I have told you. We don't need to go in to all this again - we will never agree on it. The Regulation makes me SO angry - I go to Speedway to be entertained NOT TO BE UPSET AND ANNOYED. I must be a right MUG - I pay good money to go to Speedway and get myself angry and upset. The Rule/Regulation ruins some Speedway Meetings for me. I cannot believe I am alone in this, and despite what some people say on here some Folk have stopped attending because of it. There ARE some weeks when I think that I will pack it in too, however, having Supported Speedway for almost Forty years I find it difficult to give it up. HOW SAD IS THAT? So there you are BW - I have answered YOUR question. You haven't though have you. You've said before that you detested the old Tac sub rule as well and you had the same feelings regarding it. So, nothing has changed, there is still a rule that you detest. That's beside the point anyway, you've said there are far too many regulations in speedway.. but given one.. one that has been around in one form or another for nigh on 50 years... what are these other regulations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 You haven't though have you. You've said before that you detested the old Tac sub rule as well and you had the same feelings regarding it. So, nothing has changed, there is still a rule that you detest. That's beside the point anyway, you've said there are far too many regulations in speedway.. but given one.. one that has been around in one form or another for nigh on 50 years... what are these other regulations? Well - Happiness used to be 40-38 plus a Second Half for a start. Yellow Helmet Colour (a very minor problem yes) but as I explained earlier - difficult to tell the difference between the Rider in White and the Rider in Yellow under lights and sometimes in daylight too. They should have left the Yellow/Black Colour alone. If they HAVE to have this Double Points Crap - then stick a Brown or Black Cover on them. BROWN would be the most appropriate - I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 Its not the fact that of the supporters knowing all the rules, that can be understood, But the biggest problem is that the Promoters and Referees are missing the understanding of the rules and that the biggest problem. If they have difficulty with the so-called rules what chance do we supporter stand. Shovlar has been brought it to anyone's attention that Lynn apparently fielded Kozza in the match against the Panthers wrongly. BUT, If the rules are that complex that neither Lynn, Peterborough nor the Ref was aware of the wrong doing, then surely this is a indication of how pathetic these rules really are. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) BWitcher - soon to be last man standing - I didn't know anything about speedway when I started attending, I admit that it was only getting to know how to fill in a programme that retained my interest. I soon binned my trainset. Being a sucker for rules and never one to like change, I feel speedway has made too many needless alterations over time in an effort to spruce up a product, when in fact fans only want decent racing and understandable rules. Rules appear to change in speedway, get reverted back to what they were, get changed again. Race formats are forever being fiddled with - imagine football having 90 minutes a match one year, 65 minutes a match the year after, 140 minutes... Imagine if a football team could bring on a Gazza-type character - a Joker - to make the crowd more interested and keep scores close - he'd be able to pull opponents shorts down so they can't run, in order for him to gain advantage as he runs on goal. Sounds silly, and football wouldn't allow it. Speedway, on the other hand... When someone is as obsessed and as pedantic as you are with rules and regulations, then they will never enjoy what they are watching. And just look at the thousands that still stand on the terraces with you. Although you are not entirely alone on the terraces, surely you notice speedway crowds are dipping , just as badly as one side of my fringe when my dad used to cut my hair. Next time you cough at your speedway track, notice the echo. Without rules and regulations, why play any sport? Edited August 1, 2013 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) To be fair, I think speedway has no more 'mickey mouse' rules than any other sport... The tactical double is a contrived way of keeping a meeting close, but is it any less credible than 'away goals count double' in the worlds most popular game in the biggest club competition in the world ie the champions league?? Cricket has 'duckworth lewis' to deliver a contrived result and 'power plays' to contrive more opportunity to score runs and increase entertainment levels.. Rugby provides 'bonus points' for points scored regardless of victory or defeat and cricket (again) also offers bonus points in the county championship for wickets taken/runs scored... Speedway therefore is no more or less guilty of trying to make up something to increase entertainment levels than any of these sports which are regarded as mainstream.. Where speedway balls' itself up is with things like guest rules, (is it for a number one? is it for a reserve? is he on his PL average or his EL average?, is it a wednesday night meeting? if so is it sunny or a little bit cloudy? etc etc) 'nought point this' and 'nought point that' determines that a team who are having a crap season cannot strengthen up as they become 'too strong'!!! and the biggest issue, the self governing which leads itself open to accusations of bias as rules are changed/adapted/rode rough shod over 'in the interests of speedway'.... A very good sport to watch when 14 riders of a similar level take to a well prepared track, four laps, clutch start... Pity those that run it seem sometimes to try so hard to complicate it.... Edited August 1, 2013 by mikebv 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 MikeBV, well put across. People on here say I am to concerned with speedway rules. It bothers too much bout iddly-piddly ones, fractions of a point for example. How many riders over time have been frozen out and forced into retirement because their average was slightly too high - Gordon Kennett and Paul Smith, to name two. Rules and regulations should be the backbone of any sport. Go back to a time when promoters didn't feel they had to prove their worth by making up ones that are doomed to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 Just reading the posts from various fans from teams am I the only one who finds the rules totally baffling and to be honest left feeling I don't really care. Its all complete made up garbage and has made this basic sport totally unfathomable. And does anyone apart from me think its bizarre how fans seem to go along with it all and SEEM to understand it. I am a fairly intelligent man of 51 who even understands the off side rule in football ,but league speedway rules are plop. IMO This forum can be like the blind leading the blind and everyone shouting at each other when they walk into trees and lamp posts. Here's the rules - http://www.scbgb.co.uk/pdf/regulations/2013%20SPEEDWAY%20REGULATIONS.pdf Go on, have a look at the 5 pages that SCB says are the most relevant. You'll see that there is a logic to them and much as it's a big document, most things are there for a reason. e.g. there are rules governing what is allowed on a speedway bike. Lots of them, and in great detail, but imagine NOT having those rules...what would a speedway bike be then? Anyway, compare these rules to other sports. Let's use Rugby Union as an example...how many rules and infringements of rules have to be covered just in the scrummage? And these rules change every year too. So nothing new there then, As you may guess, those who complain about the rules usually haven't read them, don't care for them, or think that they either know what they are or know better than what they think they do. Most just like to have a good whinge and have found that the rule book is a good common cause that will curry favour and make them feel good about themselves. Best policy if you don't want to read the rules is just to watch the racing, and enjoy the tussles on the track without getting too wound up about the technicalities. Leave that to those who would rather be at their computers instead. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 Here's the rules - http://www.scbgb.co....REGULATIONS.pdf Go on, have a look at the 5 pages that SCB says are the most relevant. You'll see that there is a logic to them and much as it's a big document, most things are there for a reason. e.g. there are rules governing what is allowed on a speedway bike. Lots of them, and in great detail, but imagine NOT having those rules...what would a speedway bike be then? Pages 36-44 are the relevant pages. Anything is pretty much bluster. As uk martin says, it just determines what a speedway bikes is, what the rules are for individual meetings and junior meetings, training and amateur regulations. I wonder what bits people would rip out. Yes I'd love to change a few of the rules, they make no sense to me. Yes one or two are a bit to grey (probably on purpose) and need defining better but then is that not more rules? The actual rule book is not the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rabbit Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) To be fair, I think speedway has no more 'mickey mouse' rules than any other sport... The tactical double is a contrived way of keeping a meeting close, but is it any less credible than 'away goals count double' in the worlds most popular game in the biggest club competition in the world ie the champions league?? . Away goals don't 'count double' and it's not a contrived way to keep a match close. I'm currently watching Swansea v Malmo. Swansea are 3-0 up but no Malmo player is going to put a different colour shirt on and, should they score, no Malmo goal will count any more than Swansea's Then, after two legs, should the teams be level, the team that has scored the higher number of goals at their opponents' ground goes through. Simple as that - not there to keep a tie close merely a tie-break should one be needed since there's hardly time to play another couple of matches in the week or so before the next round. Make that 4-0 now and still no joker. Edit to include the 4th goal. Edited August 1, 2013 by Barney Rabbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 two teams tie but one wins.... not contrived? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 So after all the bluster we've got the Tac rule, which has always been in existence in one form or another and 'the yellow helmet color'... The rules aren't the problem. It's the lack of enforcing them correctly and the constant attempt at manipulation that are the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 two teams tie but one wins.... not contrived? Sorry mate, poor reply to a good post. Somebody has to progress in a cup-tie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 What has changed in speedway in that time in terms of what matters, on the track? The starts.. that is basically it! Which Tyre you can use Points limit changing year after year Helmet Colours KO Cup changing format or not running at all Silencers Air fences Tactical Rides When Tacticals can be used Less meetings Unbalanced fixtures Guests The thrill of a one day World Final Regulations restricting 8+ riders Regulations restricting who you can sign as top 2 Regulations say who must be at reserve Assessed averages dropping from 6.00 down to 4.00 Second half racing Junior meetings Number of tracks in the top league Golden Helmet League Bonus Points Averages (current - rolling) Averages (inc P - not BP) Premier League / Division One / Elite League ... Name change Rider Availability ...... riding in so many countries / competitions I could probably add more but football is still 90 minutes, still home and away, still 11 v 11, players dont double up with Swindon & Man City etc etc. I love the sport and always will, but it is frustrating to see things change year after year and more than once to see a rule bought in only for teams to find loopholes and ruin the idea of the rule in the first place. The basics of football are pretty obvious to many but try explaining to a person that attends for the first time certain things. "We wear red and blue in each heat but the rider in red relly rides for another team, as does the rider in white" "We are not at full strength tonight as one rider that usually rides for us is riding at Edinburgh tonight" 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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