krompa Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Hello after watching Manzares 'engine failure' last night decided to do some quick maths. We all agree joker and tactical subs should be there only to keep meetings alive not to decide medals or titles. What would be perfect rules for you guys? I love decision that heats 17-20 are nominated, with leading team picking last. That was correct change IMO. But as proved yesterday any double pts joker used by replacing one rider with the other can make big points swing. Manzares dropped one point but Hancock gained 6. Wells from gate one was of course able to pick up some point but against solid Tai, Podzuks and Doyle I would rather say he would have scored 0. It means -1+6 from US perspective and -1 from perspective of all 3 other teams. Final score was 36-31-29-28 instead of 37-26-30-29. It is simple then. If it was the final, USA silver with joker, 4th place without it. Which rules would you like: 1) no joker, no tactical subs at all, best 4 man team on track wins 2) only tactial subs allowed when 6 behind 3) joker allowed BUT only rider who is already in heat lineup (in this case Wells in heat 16) 4) joker allowed when 10 behind and tactical subs when 6 behind 5) EVERY team can play joker once a meeting, any time they want in heats 1-16 with no tactical subs allowed So many possibilities, no perfect solution for sure but almost all more FAIR than current situation. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Shaker Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Proper 7 man teams and a proper tournament with proper team riding! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krompa Posted July 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Not a chance. Name countries other than Poland and maybe Denmark able to field 7 man team. Poland vs. GB (7 man teams) 63-27 on any track outisde UK I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Proper 7 man teams and a proper tournament with proper team riding! Not a chance. Name countries other than Poland and maybe Denmark able to field 7 man team. Poland vs. GB (7 man teams) 63-27 on any track outisde UK I'm afraid. There is nothing to beat the good old test match formula of eight aside teams (six riders and two reserves to be used when needed) racing over 18 heats. I fully understand why modern team events need Jokers - because basically that's what these meetings are - a joke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krompa Posted July 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Agree with one thing. Reserve is needed. IMO with max 4 rides allowed (to prevent situation when top rider is at reserve). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noggin Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I would do away with the double point Joker, go back to having a reserve who could take say a max of 3 rides, and keep T/S when six behind, using it once per rider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I think its fine as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) Hello after watching Manzares 'engine failure' last night decided to do some quick maths. We all agree joker and tactical subs should be there only to keep meetings alive not to decide medals or titles. What would be perfect rules for you guys? I love decision that heats 17-20 are nominated, with leading team picking last. That was correct change IMO. But as proved yesterday any double pts joker used by replacing one rider with the other can make big points swing. Manzares dropped one point but Hancock gained 6. Wells from gate one was of course able to pick up some point but against solid Tai, Podzuks and Doyle I would rather say he would have scored 0. It means -1+6 from US perspective and -1 from perspective of all 3 other teams. Final score was 36-31-29-28 instead of 37-26-30-29. It is simple then. If it was the final, USA silver with joker, 4th place without it. Which rules would you like: 1) no joker, no tactical subs at all, best 4 man team on track wins 2) only tactial subs allowed when 6 behind 3) joker allowed BUT only rider who is already in heat lineup (in this case Wells in heat 16) 4) joker allowed when 10 behind and tactical subs when 6 behind 5) EVERY team can play joker once a meeting, any time they want in heats 1-16 with no tactical subs allowed So many possibilities, no perfect solution for sure but almost all more FAIR than current situation. What do you guys think? Of those suggestions nr 1 is by far the most appealing. Best teams should win and you don't get that unless you remove the joker and tactical substitute. Its a team competition between 4 men teams not 1 men teams. Also team should always do their best to win the heats, not get intentionally efs which will be the case with joker and ts available. Edited July 19, 2013 by Ghostwalker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 4 man teams one reserve who can take a max of two rides, no tac subs and the joker can only be used after 8 points rather than six Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 4 man teams one reserve who can take a max of two rides, no tac subs and the joker can only be used after 8 points rather than six Thats has got to be a joke . So what happens if two heat leaders crash in the first heat and cannot ride anymore. . They could possibly have another 5 rides each . If you only allow the reserves two races there is going to be quite a few races with three riders and possibly two . Not really thought out is it. Then I would not agree that a team can use a joker after 8 points if there were only 2 or 3 heats to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Proper 7 man teams and a proper tournament with proper team riding! Where we gonna find 7 riders to mix it with the Aussie's Danes Poles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) Thats has got to be a joke . So what happens if two heat leaders crash in the first heat and cannot ride anymore. . They could possibly have another 5 rides each . If you only allow the reserves two races there is going to be quite a few races with three riders and possibly two . Not really thought out is it. Then I would not agree that a team can use a joker after 8 points if there were only 2 or 3 heats to go. So what happens now if two riders crash out in the first heat now and can't ride anymore ? your get riders missing everyone of there heats for sure ..the reason the reserves can't take every ride is because of what happen the wcf the other year when Poland cheated by saying a rider was sick before going on to win hence why the reserve was taken out in the first place ...by only letting the reserve have two rides you strike a happy medium between being able to replace a injured rider without cheating Edited July 19, 2013 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Just have a reserve who can have 5 rides max. Any rider, can take any 5 rides. All teams would have the same chance to name their number 1 as reserve and use him whenever they like. The reserve can't have a tac ride or a joker though, so maybe having your best rider at reserve is not a good idea..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 Once a rider is replaced by a reserve that rider is out of the meeting, so using a reserve early for tactical reasons would be a risk. Niamh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 Once a rider is replaced by a reserve that rider is out of the meeting, so using a reserve early for tactical reasons would be a risk. Niamh Why? This thread is about making news rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 It's a suggesting for a rule govening replacing riders with a reserve. Replace a rider for tactical reasons early and if you have an injury later you have no reserve to use. A risk for managers to assess. Niamh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 The original rider replaced for tactical reasons can come back into his programmed rides later whilst the reserve can be used to replace the injured guy. All at the Team mangers discretion, up to the reserves maximum number of rides. We could choose that to be 4, 5 or 6 if we wanted in this hypothetical situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Shaker Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 Where we gonna find 7 riders to mix it with the Aussie's Danes Poles? Indeed. If it were a proper tournament, I very much doubt we would be taking part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie B Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 1 Four riders per team with a reserve that can replace any rider at any time. (Just like in the old days). 2 20 heats with the last four being nominated just as now. 3 No joker or tac subs allowed. This will prevent any team from getting their riders to slow down or retire, so that they can play a tac sub or joker, as what happens nowadays. 4 Host nation (if need) to be seeded to the race-off but never to the final. Let them earn their place like all other teams. 5 Winners of first and second events going though to the final. Second place and highest scoring third place team to the race-off. Top two teams in the race-off going through to the final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigbo Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 A reserve is a must - max of 5 rides - all riders in main team must have a minimum of 1 ride. Reserve can't take joker ride. Joker at 10 points down - that way two successive heat wins still mean team trailing are behind (9 point swing max), cannot be used after heat 16. No tac subs. World Cup to only be held every 4 years. It's devalued by taking place every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.