moxey63 Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 In many European football competitions the away goals do count double Then in Cricket the side scoring the most runs can still end up losers. The same in tennis and numerous sports you can win the most games and still be the loser. So it's not just Speedway that has stupid rules. We have just had another major competition where the winners are victors by using artificial means... and I don't like it one bit. I don’t have any affinity for cricket and often scratch my head at some of the methods they use for deciding matches. As for football, you won’t see many walking away from that because it is forever bringing in silly rules nor would you get teams trying their hardest not to score because it may allow the other team to win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 Being a cynical sort, I became disillusioned with speedway when the Golden Double, Joker or whatever it's called came in. I no longer feel the sport is about honest racing and that it is important to win at all costs. I don't attend matches but still watch on TV. I question whether some of the riders are allowing others to pass in order to help the team use of this terrible ploy (the Golden Double, Joker etc). We witnessed it last year... Crump and Pedersen, who could go over the line slowest so to benefit their countries and warrant them use of the Joker. I thought after that farce it would be abolished, but, aye, it's good TV. So please don't whinge, promoters, about the stay away fans. This rule has made many disillusioned, and, like me, they watch on telly from now. So, has the Joker, the climax to last night and “It’s good TV” adage, would it have won any supporters back to the terraces? I doubt it. It is time to look at reality, question the actual impact of the Joker and such other gimmicks. Is it worth losing terrace support in favour of ones who find it good TV? If so, with an apparent hunger of catering for TV fans, in future you’ll be racing in empty stadiums. Is speedway a serious sport … or will it continue to go down the avenue of relying on pretty ladies, Joker cards and miss-a-go rules to stir up some reaction from stay-at-home Herbert’s? Agree maybe great tv viewing for any sports fan watching but doubt it will pack the terraces.Riders touring around looking at their bike to gain an advantage is not what the sport should be about.If Bjerre had slowed to finish 2nd it would have been a total farce in hindsight with the rules he should have.It certainly would have not been the "fantastic viewing " that the TV companies want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 . But we’re talking here about the Speedway World Cup – not darts, stock car racing, nor WWE wrestling, where ‘entertainment’ is king and credibility is . . . well, let’s face it, none of them are sports. Why are Darts and Stock Car Racing not sports? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPanther Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 So the result would have been ................... Denmark 40, Poland 38, Aussie 30 and Czech 12 without the joker, proper result eh! Absolutely YES.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 so in 1982 my team - belle vue - won the bl . a number of their away wins came only as a result of using tactical rides after falling behind early. Without these "contrived" results it is quite possible that they may not have been champions. Was everyone similarly outraged, did everyone think this was a farce? when people went home after seeing their team win 40-38 away after using a heat 8 double tac sub to get an 8 pts swing did they go away feeling it was a hollow victory? i don't recall any such outcry (ps. i am actually in the camp that feels in sic there should be a reserve but no other tac subs, and there should b no joker or (my preference) any side which hadn't used it prior should b able to use in heat 20) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 so MJJ bottled it again Bjerre bottled it more, off gate 1 let kasprzak by him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) so in 1982 my team - belle vue - won the bl . a number of their away wins came only as a result of using tactical rides after falling behind early. Without these "contrived" results it is quite possible that they may not have been champions. Was everyone similarly outraged, did everyone think this was a farce? when people went home after seeing their team win 40-38 away after using a heat 8 double tac sub to get an 8 pts swing did they go away feeling it was a hollow victory? i don't recall any such outcry (ps. i am actually in the camp that feels in sic there should be a reserve but no other tac subs, and there should b no joker or (my preference) any side which hadn't used it prior should b able to use in heat 20) Belle Vue won the league in 1982 simply because Bruce Penhall walked out on Cradley. As regards saying they won many away matches using tac sub, that was the norm then. If you recall, it was using the speedway method of scoring - 3, 2, 1, 0 - and didn't call for a take-two-throws kinda move that the Golden Double/Joker provides. I don't remember as many races being thrown back then as I can recall in Golden Double Joke races. You can't suddenly alter a scoring method during a match when sufficient points arrears allow. Next they'll be playing circus music when a Joker or whatever is introduced. Back in the days of the old TS, when your team fought back from a 6-points down using the rule, it felt like a deserved victory. I can't imagine even the Poles regard themselves as the better team, now the celebrations have wound down. Edited July 21, 2013 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 Poland were the better team, when milik fell bjerre was last, he won the re-run, if milik didnt fall bjerre would be third at best with dudek winning, thats a 4 point turnaround lucky for bjerre unlucky for dudek and poland wouldnt have used the joker and kasprzak would have been third in his race instead of feigning a breakdown. Poland were the better team and deserved champs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 so in 1982 my team - belle vue - won the bl . a number of their away wins came only as a result of using tactical rides after falling behind early. Without these "contrived" results it is quite possible that they may not have been champions. Was everyone similarly outraged, did everyone think this was a farce? when people went home after seeing their team win 40-38 away after using a heat 8 double tac sub to get an 8 pts swing did they go away feeling it was a hollow victory? i don't recall any such outcry (ps. i am actually in the camp that feels in sic there should be a reserve but no other tac subs, and there should b no joker or (my preference) any side which hadn't used it prior should b able to use in heat 20) In the tac sub days you were not gifted 3 EXTRA points for winning.You still could only score a 5-1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 In the tac sub days you were not gifted 3 EXTRA points for winning.You still could only score a 5-1. no, but you could get an 8 point swing in a single race from using a tac sub, as opposed to a max 6 point swing using a tactics joker. so it gave the trailing team a greater advantage, although admittedly you couldn't level the scores in a single heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r8gdp Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 Poland were the better team, when milik fell bjerre was last, he won the re-run, if milik didnt fall bjerre would be third at best with dudek winning, thats a 4 point turnaround lucky for bjerre unlucky for dudek and poland wouldnt have used the joker and kasprzak would have been third in his race instead of feigning a breakdown. Poland were the better team and deserved champs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) There is worrying news tonight that some fans are still defending the current use of Golden Doubles and Joker points in the professional sport of speedway racing. Not since Comical Allie's denials in the last Iraq war have I laughed so much. There are also some, boasting that Poland were the best team, even though they used a Joker ploy to leapfrog over Denmark's honest attempt to make a strong dash to the line. Some witnesses say Poland's tactics were like a game of tiddly-winks, when your opponent dashes off for a piddle and you sneekily move your counter up a few places while he's away. Edited July 21, 2013 by moxey63 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r8gdp Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 Sorry don t agree with forever blue Poland were not the best side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) There seems to be people on here demeaning polands. achievement just because they used the rules to their advantage which denmark would have done had they been in the same position. While you may not agree with the joker rule it creates excitement just as a tac rule does in normal league racing. Edited July 21, 2013 by foreverblue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 There seems to be people on here demeaning polands. achievement just because they used the rules to their advantage which denmark would have done had they been in the same position. While you may not agree with the joker rule it creates excitement just as a tac rule does in normal league racing. WRONG!!! People are complaining about the Rule/Regulation and the ability of ANY TEAM to win by GIFTED Points. I am not complaining about Poland per sé I would feel exactly the same were it England, Australia, America or anyone else. Basically it is a FIDDLE, an Official way of CHEATING. As it is sanctioned by the FIM, SCB and BSPA etc. then that is all it can be. Keeping Teams ARTIFICIALLY close is totally wrong and against all the Rules of SPORT that I was brought up with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 no, but you could get an 8 point swing in a single race from using a tac sub, as opposed to a max 6 point swing using a tactics joker. so it gave the trailing team a greater advantage, although admittedly you couldn't level the scores in a single heat. Sorry I am talking in league racing in Britain in the old days ,I don't understand your 8point swing in a single Race comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 WRONG!!! People are complaining about the Rule/Regulation and the ability of ANY TEAM to win by GIFTED Points. I am not complaining about Poland per sé I would feel exactly the same were it England, Australia, America or anyone else. Basically it is a FIDDLE, an Official way of CHEATING. As it is sanctioned by the FIM, SCB and BSPA etc. then that is all it can be. Keeping Teams ARTIFICIALLY close is totally wrong and against all the Rules of SPORT that I was brought up with. That as may be but I cant see them changing the rule anytime soon, its keeps teams close and the paying public interest is kept for longer and it is good for tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 The rule makers are the ones that have put us in this place. To argue against the joker is now seen as arguing against Poland's win. A real shame. But the annual week-long festival is over for another year, or more. Every year we go over and over the Joker issue ... And no one listens. Every year we go over and over the Middleditch issue .... And no one listens. It's now back to he leagues and all those contentious issues Where no one listens. In between we watch a bit of speedway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 There seems to be people on here demeaning polands. achievement just because they used the rules to their advantage which denmark would have done had they been in the same position. While you may not agree with the joker rule it creates excitement just as a tac rule does in normal league racing. I think the Danish Team Manger should be sacked for failing to tell Bjerre the points situation.I it had been Team GB in this situation the usual suspects would have been calling for Middlo's head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) Sorry I am talking in league racing in Britain in the old days ,I don't understand your 8point swing in a single Race comment. In the old tac sub rule you could replace both poor performing riders a a race with a double tac sub. Thereby changing an almost certain 1-5 into a 5-1. That is an eight point swing. Sorry for jumping the gun on adding the answer. Edited July 21, 2013 by Grand Central Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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