salty Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Yet again, an extremely well written and informative post from Arthur. I'm afriad I would have to concur with his pessimism regarding the future of dogs at Plough Lane - and as we have mentioned before - the only hope for Speedway (if any) is that Paschal Taggart wins the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelcroucher Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 I agree well written Arthur. You are truly great with what’s going on etc. As most of you are aware when I write on this forum about Wimbledon I like to be optimistic. I can see that without greyhound racing that Speedway may not return but when was the last race of Speedway at Wimbledon. The dogs have been there quite a while and Speedway hasn’t, so to say that without Greyhounds there be no speedway I think this is wrong. With greyhounds we don’t have speedway so why should fans get all excited to read if greyhounds stay then speedway has a chance. I have always thought with greyhounds being there then speedway will never return. I hope that Merton council don’t allow planning permission for houses then that way speedway has a slim chance of returning. If a sporting venue does return to the area then this is where fans need to be active. You never know what other people are thinking. Lets face it if AFC goes in a and its just football then the person who runs AFC might say lets give speedway a looking and plan a stadium around football and speedway. We never know what other people are thinking. I know it may never happen but being positive has some hope. I find in this country we moan a lot but really don’t do much about it. If Wimbledon is to return then we have to fight for it and not just 1 or 2 years. This might even take 3 years but by giving up and I’m not saying people are giving up we do stand a little chance. I know that people will say well we will have to wait to see what is going on in April or May with the site which I agree but we must not give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 As a lifelong wimbledon fan i think the stadium has little chance of surviving as a greyhound or speedway venue. Both sports are in decline and who in their right mind would invest millions of pounds in building a new stadium for about a 1000 people. For this reason I fear that swindon will soon join oxford and reading as a former speedway venue. There is no money in speedway anymore, you only have to look at the strength of the elite league to realise that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 As a lifelong wimbledon fan i think the stadium has little chance of surviving as a greyhound or speedway venue. Both sports are in decline and who in their right mind would invest millions of pounds in building a new stadium for about a 1000 people. For this reason I fear that swindon will soon join oxford and reading as a former speedway venue. There is no money in speedway anymore, you only have to look at the strength of the elite league to realise that. I very much hope you are wrong - but - I fear you may be right. :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur cross Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) Michael, I appreciate you saying my posts are "truly great about what's going on" and that you like to be as optimistic as possible ... but in this case will you please respect my view that, in reality, you're being hopelessly optimistic with regard to the future of the Wimbledon Stadium site as well as still dreadfully struggling to grasp the current situation there (especially the financial side). You say "I hope that Merton Council don't allow planning permission for houses" but no-one has yet offered any other sort of realistic way to raise the multi-millions that keep appearing to be needed (and increasingly urgently) by the current owners of the site, Galliard, to pay off the Irish banks wanting their overdue loans back from a decade ago. Merton Council have made it clear that a crowd-attracting sporting venue must feature in any redevelopment of the site ... but, like everyone else who's studied this saga realistically, they regard house-building on part of the site as the only way to payback fairly quickly at least a hefty chunk of the multi-millions. As long as the Irish debt agency Nama remain supportive of Galliard's plans rather than any other option, then Galliard's solution of 600 homes plus a football stadium for AFC Wimbledon remains the clear favourite. If Nama finally lose all patience with Galliard (thus forcing Galliard to flog the site to another bidder as their only remaining way to pay back any of the Irish debt), the only other option fully planned out is Paschal Taggart's solution of a 21st-century revamping of greyhound racing but even his project includes 400-to-450 houses ... and a big part of his reputation within that sport is based on his revamping of Dublin's Shelbourne Park that involved turning the land beyond the first/second bends and the first-half of the back-straight into smart apartments. No exact figures have emerged about how many millions Nama still require from Galliard but we do know £50-million was the purchase-price around a decade ago when the Greyhound Racing Association operations last changed ownership on the open market ... given several recent ways Nama have seemed to raise their pressure on Galliard, £10-million would seem to me to be the minimum fair estimate of what's still owed and I wouldn't be surprised if it was over £20-million. It isn't speedway's fault that such a big debt continues to hang over the existing use of the site ... but even an Elite League club operating there wouldn't reach a turnover of £1-million a year and therefore speedway offers a tiny fraction of the overall solution to anyone trying to resolve the current multi-million debt (never mind then sorting out any noise-level issues in the future). There is absolutely no point hoping AFC Wimbledon might like to plan a stadium around football and speedway ... because it won't be AFC Wimbledon's decision about how that new stadium takes shape !! AFC Wimbledon will simply be Galliard's tenants in a rectangular-field stadium that's part of Galliard's overall sport/housing plan and that shape is vital because it requires a smaller area of the site to be used for the sporting playing area (plus the spectator facilities) and therefore leaves a bigger area of the site to be used for extra housing that will help pay off more of the multi-millions (and, longer-term, generate extra council tax revenue) ... all AFC Wimbledon are doing in this is taking lucky advantage of being the ideal team to fit into a new stadium that lets Galliard tick Merton Council's box for keeping a sporting community-use within the redeveloped site. There are only 2 ways speedway can co-exist with a football/rugby pitch ... either, speedway temporarily lays its track within the rectangular confines of the pitch (limiting the size of the track to Cardiff's 285-metres for the British-GP or a similar length at Copenhagen's Parken for the Danish-GP) or it has a permanent track around the pitch with the bends of the track curving past the football corner-flags. The huge cost of laying and removing a temporary track can only be justified for occasional meetings (usually just once-a-year) in any stadium already big enough to host international events ... AFC Wimbledon's new home wouldn't be anywhere near that big and any Wimbledon speedway promoter would want to keeping relaying the track plenty of times a year so the costs of linking up like this are utterly impossible. Meanwhile, a permanent speedway track around AFC Wimbledon's pitch forces a bigger floor area for the stadium (notably wasting two big empty semi-circles in between the speedway bends and the football goalmouths) and thus reducing the area of the site still available for housing ... that's why the Taggart plan has at least 150 fewer houses than the Galliard plan because the greyhound track also needs the oval shape that uses up more sporting floor space. Hence any request by speedway to join in with Galliard's football option would be laughed at by Galliard unless speedway's paying several million pounds up front to compensate for the reduced number of new houses caused by speedway's inclusion ... that's why speedway's better (but still tiny) hope is to find a way of being included with the greyhounds because the greyhound-revamping will then be footing the bill for the extra sporting floor space it also needs (although also including enough new houses to give speedway a noise-level nightmare). As usual, thanks for reading all of this ... and as I've mentioned before, anyone speculating on "what happens next" with this site must understand that, first of all, just Nama and Galliard must finally resolve between themselves "what happens with the multi-millions still owed now", And Michael, I hope we can find a way for your enthusiasm and optimism about speedway in general to match up with speedway's realistic place within the Wimbledon Stadium saga. Edited February 5, 2014 by arthur cross 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BangerBoy Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 I know this thread has been going for some time now but is the simple fact that unless the stadium is replaced as it is ie no homes as part of any scheme that with any form of housing then any type of motor sport will be killed off due to noise levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur cross Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) I know this thread has been going for some time now but is the simple fact that unless the stadium is replaced as it is ie no homes as part of any scheme that with any form of housing then any type of motor sport will be killed off due to noise levels. A very fair assessment of how heavily the odds are stacked against speedway, stocks or bangers ... they've all been dumped into this gloomy situation because the main use of the stadium has been entrenched for so long in debts so heavy that significant house-building (with its obvious bad side-effect for any motorsport) appears by far the most likely way of repaying those debts. Certainly the motorsports (even collectively) don't have enough financial clout to really help resolve those debts in return for a better chance of having a future on the site. My own contributions to this thread are much more a way of explaining the depth of the stadium's problems to speedway fans likely to be unfamiliar with the greyhound racing, football or local politics ... I don't have a wonderfully radlcal answer to help return speedway to Wimbledon and, sadly but realistically, nor does anyone else either. Edited February 5, 2014 by arthur cross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 Certainly it seems that the return of Speedway to Wimbledon is going to be VERY unlikely - but - never give up hope. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 Have the new silencers introduced a couple of years ago made a significant difference to the decibel readings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelcroucher Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 I totally understand where Arthur is coming from, and yes I do think that speedway doesn’t have a chance at Wimbledon but you never know who reads these forums. It might not be now but somewhere down the line you never know. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckford Boy Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 It seems that the next stage in the saga will take place in April when Merton Council meet to consider the observations made by the Government Inspector.They will then further discuss the intentions of both Galliard and Mr.Taggart for the future of the site.It's anybody's guess when they will make a final decision,unfortunatly RCP/Galliard hold the trump card in that they already own the site and they appear to be L.B.Merton's preferred option.The final shout though will be that of NAMA,they will naturally go with the highest bidder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur cross Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Have the new silencers introduced a couple of years ago made a significant difference to the decibel readings? Perhaps yes for a general measurement of any speedway noise drifting towards any housing estate at least a few hundred yards away from a track ... however, probably not by a wide enough margin to prevent it still being regarded as "very noisy" if you live somewhere overlooking a track on a combined stadium/housing estate. Edited February 6, 2014 by arthur cross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave C Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Sadly the return of the Dons seems very remote, even if the Greyhound plans ever do come to fruition. An interesting animation of the proposed stadium development, with no hint of a speedway / stock car track, surrounded by flats: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6DB1dzDtcM I also can't help but fear for the future of speedway in Swindon, as again the prospect of a motorsport venue surrounded by residential property seems very unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckford Boy Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sky Sports News website are reporting that Galliard have agreed with West Ham United to buy the Boleyn ground when the Hammers move to the Olympic stadium in a couple of years time. Seems like they have an appetite for sporting venues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur cross Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) West Ham United very much talking up their deal with Galliard as a 3-way partnership between themselves, Galliard & Newham Council to make sure there are plenty of footballing tributes built into the housing redevelopment of the current ground (a statue of Bobby Moore plus each of the housing blocks or streets having footballing titles). I don't know which company did the housing redevelopment of Highbury around a decade ago after Arsenal's move to the Emirates Stadium but that was done very neatly with the pitch area turned into a smart communal garden for the flats built where the four stands previously stood (as some of those stands were listed buildings, much of the outside decoration of those stands had to remain intact) ... reveloping Upton Park doesn't look so tricky because I don't think there are any listed buildings in the way of a complete demolition of the current stadium. So that's now one London borough council (Newham) clearly linking up with Galliard, another London borough council (Merton) supposed to still look impartial about Wimbledon Stadium's future but seemingly leaning towards Galliard (certainly according to most greyhound observers) but Oxford City Council remaining downright comtemptuous of Galliard's plans for what happens next at their local dogs/speedway venue. The key difference ... Galliard reckon there's room for 700 new residences at Upton Park and 600 at Plough Lane (both commanding inner-London-suburb property prices) so that's a lot more prospective council tax from those sites compared to just the 220 new residences Galliard want to build in one of Oxford's relatively poorer suburbs. Edited February 10, 2014 by arthur cross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 As a lifelong wimbledon fan i think the stadium has little chance of surviving as a greyhound or speedway venue. Both sports are in decline and who in their right mind would invest millions of pounds in building a new stadium for about a 1000 people. For this reason I fear that swindon will soon join oxford and reading as a former speedway venue. There is no money in speedway anymore, you only have to look at the strength of the elite league to realise that. The thing that depresses me is when you look at an aerial view of a venue and see just how much space the stadium and associated car parking takes up. I can't see how any of the clubs you mentioned will avoid having their tracks turned into something more profitable in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted February 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Yes, the facades of both the East & West Stands of the former Arsenal Stadium remain intact. I go past here every working day and it doesn't lessen the pain of losing the ground I loved so much to see those remnants remaining... Naming roads after memories from the demolished stadium has happened in West Ham before - with the streets on the site of the former Speedway stadium in Custom House including Hoskins Close, Croombs Road, Young Road, Wilkinson Road and Atkinson Road. Again doesn't really lessen the pain or reduce in any way the loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Too right derek, west ham is my all time favourite speedway track and highbury is my football clubs spiritual home. Wimbledon stadium the home of my beloved dons will soon be joining those two defunct iconic london sporting venues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABS Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 West Ham United very much talking up their deal with Galliard as a 3-way partnership between themselves, Galliard & Newham Council to make sure there are plenty of footballing tributes built into the housing redevelopment of the current ground (a statue of Bobby Moore plus each of the housing blocks or streets having footballing titles). I don't know which company did the housing redevelopment of Highbury around a decade ago after Arsenal's move to the Emirates Stadium but that was done very neatly with the pitch area turned into a smart communal garden for the flats built where the four stands previously stood (as some of those stands were listed buildings, much of the outside decoration of those stands had to remain intact) ... reveloping Upton Park doesn't look so tricky because I don't think there are any listed buildings in the way of a complete demolition of the current stadium. So that's now one London borough council (Newham) clearly linking up with Galliard, another London borough council (Merton) supposed to still look impartial about Wimbledon Stadium's future but seemingly leaning towards Galliard (certainly according to most greyhound observers) but Oxford City Council remaining downright comtemptuous of Galliard's plans for what happens next at their local dogs/speedway venue. The key difference ... Galliard reckon there's room for 700 new residences at Upton Park and 600 at Plough Lane (both commanding inner-London-suburb property prices) so that's a lot more prospective council tax from those sites compared to just the 220 new residences Galliard want to build in one of Oxford's relatively poorer suburbs. Think you'll find it was Galliard who were behind the redevelopment of Highbury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theflyingkiwi Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Gaillard have also won the contract for Upton Park redevelopment when West Ham move to the Olympic Stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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