British Speedway Failing Its Own...

[BWitcher]

Never ever wanted to comment on another post of yours but i have to what total crap! Because people d/up does that make them lacking in ambition? do you know these riders? Is it easy to get opportunities abroad get real these guys have to pay the bills.Woffinden is where he is because he is a very very talented rider end of in a way that's why if the EL fInished and amalgamated it would not matter why do people d/up? to make a living don't you agree.?

 

You never fail Sidney, just when I think you can't make yourself look any more ridiculous, you come up with another classic.

 

Woffinden is where he is because he has dedicated himself to the sport and worked hard to pursue his goals. He hasn't sat around on his butt and expected everything to be given him on a plate. When he moved up to the EL he had no thoughts of looking to 'double-up' but immediately looked abroad to obtain team places and broaden his experience. He struggled aborad initially, but he learned and that experience has helped him become the rider he is now.

 

How do you think the Danes reach the top level? Sure they have the starting blocks of their 80cc system, but that only takes you so far. Their league system is nothing to write home about. They progress because again, they get out and secure places abroad, be it in the UK, or moreso now in Sweden and Poland. They don't live the comfy life of staying at home riding in their own country.

 

 

 

 

 

2003 if i remember correctly...

 

approx 10 years after the rfu put a vision in place to increase attendances for the domestic game by delivering a great national team...

 

they realised that the national media and national sponsors would come on board if 'the game' at international level was successful..

 

central contracts, restrictions on foreigners, and greater proffessionalism from the players and clubs were all part of the plan..

 

you can see today how this plan has benefited the sport domestically and even though england are no longer No1 the legacy of that plan still lingers...

 

So they had a decent crop of players come along in a sport they should really be dominating given the size of the UK's population, number of rugby clubs etc and of course the fact that very few countries take the sport seriously anyway. Odds are you're going to stand a decent chance of winning the World Cup at some point. Besides, although they won the World Cup, they were hardly dominant either side of that.

[oldace]

When Len pushed to sign Jens and Peter, he had newly introduced European Employment Law on his side if I'm honest. Plus, in the case of Jens, he was married to a girl (Elaine) from Peterborough. They had kids together, Jens moved lock, stock and barrel to the UK from Denmark in 1982, so it would have been extremely difficult not to grant him a licence to ride.

 

 

 

It was Ronnie Russell, not Len Silver

[The Voice Of Reason]

It was Ronnie Russell, not Len Silver

Indeed it was. I stand corrected.

 

Just to add, that I think Peter Shroek may also still be UK based. When I worked down at Lakeside, another guy on the track staff was a regular at Rye House, and apparently Peter often makes an appearance.

[stratton]

Ok WItcher some good points in there but you ask Tai until the last year or so has he been that dedicated.?He is where he is now because he is a class act even at only 60 per cent the guy would cruise through.Again as usual you didn't answer the question do you know the likes of the D/u riders Cook,Worrall,Auty,Barker,?can you tell me if they have ambition? or lack it?do you know they're individual circumstances.As we all know to come through our system now is very difficult look at the Lambert situation we are light years behind the Poles ,Danes, and other nations.A young lad now even if dedicated can he practice 7 days a week here? NO not like some of the other nations turn up and get track time.Your take on it indicates that all Brits are lazy have it easy ( comfort zone you said) which is untrue for me some have had it harder because of the system we have in place.England are a now spent force at World level not because our riders are lazy and not dedicated the reality is we are not good anough.Our leagues and set up for me has failed the Brits not anough get chances we have seen when the likes of Kerr get a chance they can compete.

[arthur cross]

 

How do you think the Danes reach the top level? Sure they have the starting blocks of their 80cc system, but that only takes you so far. Their league system is nothing to write home about. They progress because again, they get out and secure places abroad, be it in the UK, or moreso now in Sweden and Poland. They don't live the comfy life of staying at home riding in their own country.

 

 

The single biggest difference between most young Danes and most young Brits is that the Danes understand much better about learning to organise yourself really well off-track so that it benefits yourself on-track ... It's probably a general difference in attitude between any young Danes and any young Brits about being well organised (not just speedway riders).

 

Because there's now a steady stream of young Danes making progress over here, each generation also seems much better at passing on their experiences to the next generation.

 

What's more, the Danes have a far better balance between enjoying success on their way up the ladder but still regarding it as just a stepping stone towards their ultimate target which they know is going to be tougher than anything they're currently achieving ... meanwhile, too many young National League riders over here win a few races at that level, get carried away on the tiny bit of star-status that gives them and then can't cope with scratching around for points in the Premier League, never mind anything beyond that.

 

Hence why many clubs go down the route of signing young Danes (or other imports) rather than cultivating British talent ... it's partly because those taking the decisions at those clubs are totally fed up at too many young Brits wasting the help that's offered to them.

[kelvinht]

Part of the problem of getting Brits to ride abroad in places like Poland is we seem unable to compete in the wide open spaces of the european tracks, whether that is down to rider skill (or ability to go fast), lack of the right equipment or both I don't know. There are too many 'trick' tracks in this country which will only ever mean riders who stay on these shores will never develop further. It appears to be easier for Johnny Foreigner to learn his trade on continental tracks and then fine tune when they come to the UK than the other way round.

[mikebv]

So they had a decent crop of players come along in a sport they should really be dominating given the size of the UK's population, number of rugby clubs etc and of course the fact that very few countries take the sport seriously anyway. Odds are you're going to stand a decent chance of winning the World Cup at some point. Besides, although they won the World Cup, they were hardly dominant either side of that.

 

so the plan didnt work then??

 

rugby doesnt get massive publicity in the national media?

 

rugby doesnt get endorsed by national companies' sponsorship?

 

rugby players are not very well known in the wider sorting domain?

 

'only winning a world cup' is now not a major achievement, as well as reaching finals?

 

and using your rationale in a sport that even less countries take seriously, with 3 leagues and over 200 team places up for grabs then surely british speedway should be 'failing' like rugby and cricket seem to be??!!

Edited July 17, 2013 by mikebv

[BWitcher]

 

 

so the plan didnt work then??

 

rugby doesnt get massive publicity in the national media?

 

rugby doesnt get endorsed by national companies' sponsorship?

 

rugby players are not very well known in the wider sorting domain?

 

'only winning a world cup' is now not a major achievement, as well as reaching finals?

 

and using your rationale in a sport that even less countries take seriously, with 3 leagues and over 200 team places up for grabs then surely british speedway should be 'failing' like rugby and cricket seem to be??!!

 

There is absolutely no comparison between speedway and rugby/cricket in terms of press coverage and media exposure. Rugby Union and Cricket are both 'elite' sports and have always enjoyed heavy exposure especially from the BBC.

 

It would have taken a major cock-up to mess up with the so-called 'plan'. They were starting from an entirely different position. It's made little difference to the national team anyway, they are no stronger than they were before. Throughout the history of the sport there have been good England teams and poor ones. What's new is the World Cup which has only been around for so long.

 

Part of the problem of getting Brits to ride abroad in places like Poland is we seem unable to compete in the wide open spaces of the european tracks, whether that is down to rider skill (or ability to go fast), lack of the right equipment or both I don't know. There are too many 'trick' tracks in this country which will only ever mean riders who stay on these shores will never develop further. It appears to be easier for Johnny Foreigner to learn his trade on continental tracks and then fine tune when they come to the UK than the other way round.

 

More excuses.. that's the British problem I'm afraid.

 

Ok WItcher some good points in there but you ask Tai until the last year or so has he been that dedicated.?He is where he is now because he is a class act even at only 60 per cent the guy would cruise through.Again as usual you didn't answer the question do you know the likes of the D/u riders Cook,Worrall,Auty,Barker,?can you tell me if they have ambition? or lack it?do you know they're individual circumstances.As we all know to come through our system now is very difficult look at the Lambert situation we are light years behind the Poles ,Danes, and other nations.A young lad now even if dedicated can he practice 7 days a week here? NO not like some of the other nations turn up and get track time.Your take on it indicates that all Brits are lazy have it easy ( comfort zone you said) which is untrue for me some have had it harder because of the system we have in place.England are a now spent force at World level not because our riders are lazy and not dedicated the reality is we are not good anough.Our leagues and set up for me has failed the Brits not anough get chances we have seen when the likes of Kerr get a chance they can compete.

 

Woffinden wasn't cruising through was he? Up until this year he has struggled outside the UK, been exposed in the GP. This season he is entirely dedicated in all areas including attitude, fitness etc.

 

You're getting confused also Sidney. Cook/Worrall are quite ok to double up at this point, they are just moving into the EL. However, that should be used for their first season until they establish themselves in the EL. If they are going to progress they then have to drop the PL and get out and secure spots abroad. The whole point is to get them OUT of their comfort zone. You say they need to earn money, of course they do. That should drive them on to succeed abroad in order to do that. Sadly many aren't up for that challenge, take the easy route and bleat about it.

 

You seem obsessed with Auty.. he is going nowhere. He's reached his level, that's it. Barker got so high, took the easy option of dropping down a level and he will not progress any further as a result.

[stratton]

 

 

There is absolutely no comparison between speedway and rugby/cricket in terms of press coverage and media exposure. Rugby Union and Cricket are both 'elite' sports and have always enjoyed heavy exposure especially from the BBC.

 

It would have taken a major cock-up to mess up with the so-called 'plan'. They were starting from an entirely different position. It's made little difference to the national team anyway, they are no stronger than they were before. Throughout the history of the sport there have been good England teams and poor ones. What's new is the World Cup which has only been around for so long.

 

 

 

More excuses.. that's the British problem I'm afraid.

 

 

 

Woffinden wasn't cruising through was he? Up until this year he has struggled outside the UK, been exposed in the GP. This season he is entirely dedicated in all areas including attitude, fitness etc.

 

You're getting confused also Sidney. Cook/Worrall are quite ok to double up at this point, they are just moving into the EL. However, that should be used for their first season until they establish themselves in the EL. If they are going to progress they then have to drop the PL and get out and secure spots abroad. The whole point is to get them OUT of their comfort zone. You say they need to earn money, of course they do. That should drive them on to succeed abroad in order to do that. Sadly many aren't up for that challenge, take the easy route and bleat about it.

 

You seem obsessed with Auty.. he is going nowhere. He's reached his level, that's it. Barker got so high, took the easy option of dropping down a level and he will not progress any further as a result.

Not obsessed with Auty a supporter yes and all Brits in general but you need to get your facts right how many full EL seasons has Auty had?do your research first.Woffinden was not exposed in the GPS he was just not set up right team wise at that time was PUK the same look where he is now.Woffinden has always had class you would have to be Stevie Wonder not to realise that.My gripe with your OPINION( which you are entitled to)is that you seem to take a swipe at the English lads and also at times not very complimentary about the PL let's face it the EL is going nowhere fast.

[speedibee]

Whilst agreeing that the lack of opportunites has an impact, I'm still of the belief that attitude is a far bigger reason. There are many many foreign speedway riders and football players who have lack of 'opportunities' but knuckle down, train hard and make the best of their ability.

 

The problem with too many Brits in both sports is they get to a certain level, usually a very average one and think they've made it. Craig Cook's comments show him to be the latest example of this.

 

It's worse in football's case as young players quite a long way down the scale are earning far more money than their peers, meaning they are the centre of attention and it all goes to their heads. Speedway, on a lesser scale (without the money so much) is similar, we've all seen the entourages around the most average of British riders.

 

Tai Woffinden has shown with the right attitude you can make it to the top echelon. He may have been raised in Australia BUT he has worked through the British system and steadily improved to become the rider he is now. Messrs Holder and Ward have also come through the same system. The difference is they don't sit on their butts and look towards doubling up in the PL to earn a bit more money, they got out and sorted spots out in foreign leagues and continued to progress as a result.

He would have had a hard time working through the Australian system .

[Vince]

The real difference between the Danes, Aussies etc and the Brits is that we only see the foreign riders that have already got the ability, finances and dedication to make the grade. For every one we do see there are dozens that have fallen by the wayside as far as reaching the top level of the sport. There isn't so much difference between the best of the British lads and the rest as far as ability and dedication.

 

There is a difference in experience that makes a comparison between a 25 year old British lad and a 16 year old foreign lad who has been on a bike of one sort or another every day for years fairer than comparing riders of a similar age. The countries producing top World Championship contenders has always gone in cycles and seems likely to continue to do so

 

One thing for sure is that people repeatedly spouting that Brtish lads don't work hard enough, aren't dedicated, have a bad attitude and so on is becoming infectious and if the same was done on this forum about any other nation the same people would be calling the posters 'little englanders' and so on. It is a massive generalisation that is unfair and in some cases untrue. The percentage of riders who aren't dedicated enough to make the top of the sport will be much the same for any nationality.

[stratton]

The real difference between the Danes, Aussies etc and the Brits is that we only see the foreign riders that have already got the ability, finances and dedication to make the grade. For every one we do see there are dozens that have fallen by the wayside as far as reaching the top level of the sport. There isn't so much difference between the best of the British lads and the rest as far as ability and dedication.

 

There is a difference in experience that makes a comparison between a 25 year old British lad and a 16 year old foreign lad who has been on a bike of one sort or another every day for years fairer than comparing riders of a similar age. The countries producing top World Championship contenders has always gone in cycles and seems likely to continue to do so

 

One thing for sure is that people repeatedly spouting that Brtish lads don't work hard enough, aren't dedicated, have a bad attitude and so on is becoming infectious and if the same was done on this forum about any other nation the same people would be calling the posters 'little englanders' and so on. It is a massive generalisation that is unfair and in some cases untrue. The percentage of riders who aren't dedicated enough to make the top of the sport will be much the same for any nationality.

Top post Vince, is Kelly the prime example i know he still did well mega well talent alone did that a great record great bloke talent well mind blowing at times.It is not just the English guys,loads of foreign talent fall by the wayside. Edited July 17, 2013 by sidney

[muirspud]

Should the BSPA or who ever runs the speedway in this country be setting up "franchises" or links with clubs in Poland, Czech, Russia and the other big track countries, so a certain amount of GB riders race out there and they come here to learn the smaller tracks. Everyone benefitting from the same thing and instead of being funded and owned by a club, they could be owned by there own federation? I know some of this may not be possible or realistic.

[Deano]

Some good points made, but can I add:-

 

Firstly

 

I think the financial penalties are too hard over here, Speedway is not really known for it's amazing rewards when a rider is doing well. For a three pointer in the PL, Maybe a fall with damage to a bike and a blown engine in the same meeting could kill a promising career dead.

 

Secondly

 

We could look at the Polish, the Danes and their systems, but in Britain, I think we need to also look at the reason why young lads do not want to ride speedway or retire early.

 

There needs to be a carrot to get them in and keep them riding.

[Jonny the spud]

Too true. My son (Adam Ellis) is doing brilliantly in the NL, has managed to put nearly 2 points on his starting average of 3 in the PL in his first season of racing in the UK. I pay for his accommodation and supplied him with a van ( two things that foreign riders seem to pick up quite easily) but without some small sponsorship he's been able to pick up in the UK and the fantastic help of Matt Read and his wife we'd be struggling.

 

Just in the last month nearly £2,000 was needed for tyres and a new gearbox on the van and we all know how much engines cost to service etc. there are lots of young English riders in the same position, there doesn't se to be the sponsorship in the UK for them whereas foreign riders seem to be able to demand transport / accommodation etc as part of a deal with ease.

 

For young up and coming riders one engine blow up really could mean the difference between riding and packing up