tyretrax Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 Following another couple of bad injuries (Stead and Holder) I think something must now be done about the speed of the bikes. I know that it's called SPEEDway but I think that bikes are becoming to fast for the riders reaction time.Tracks haven't improved to match the bikes, O.K. we now have air fences but in my opinion riders have a false sense of security. Following spectacular crashes we hear "If we didn't have an air fence that would have been a serious injury" Well if we didn't have an air fence maybe riders wouldn't ride on the edge of what is safe and what is madness. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 Following another couple of bad injuries (Stead and Holder) I think something must now be done about the speed of the bikes. I know that it's called SPEEDway but I think that bikes are becoming to fast for the riders reaction time.Tracks haven't improved to match the bikes, O.K. we now have air fences but in my opinion riders have a false sense of security. Following spectacular crashes we hear "If we didn't have an air fence that would have been a serious injury" Well if we didn't have an air fence maybe riders wouldn't ride on the edge of what is safe and what is madness. i dont think its the speed of the bikes cause speeds are not really faster than 20 years ago but what is different is the speed of the back wheel . a modern speedway bike is pretty much at the top of its revs all the time and when the bike hits a rut or bump and takes off there is not enough room to get the revs down and control the bike. it covers the width of the track in about a second 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 Many nasty injuries since the new silencers... Coincidental??.... Or not?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 Many nasty injuries since the new silencers... Coincidental??.... Or not?? Many nasty injuries since the new silencers... Coincidental??.... Or not?? GOOD piece (okay, I would say that) by Kelvin Tatum in SS this week referring to the problems caused by the 'new' silencers... here's part of it When you have slick conditions you de-tune the bike for that but the problem you have now is that when the bike runs into grip and the revs drop, the power disappears and that means you have too much grip and the bike pulls too hard. And as hard as you try to hang on to it and as much throttle as you turn on, the engine wont recover quickly enough because of the lack of power that it produces at lower rpm. That is why you see so many riders getting off, it is as simple as that. They just cannot recover whereas before you had a much bigger window and when the bike got in trouble you could literally hang on to it, hold it flat out and the bike would get you out of trouble. You don’t have that safety net any more. The bike gets away from you. Look how violently bikes react now and in my opinion the new silencers have certainly increased the risks involved in racing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) i dont think its the speed of the bikes cause speeds are not really faster than 20 years ago but what is different is the speed of the back wheel . a modern speedway bike is pretty much at the top of its revs all the time and when the bike hits a rut or bump and takes off there is not enough room to get the revs down and control the bike. it covers the width of the track in about a second Good post. GOOD piece (okay, I would say that) by Kelvin Tatum in SS this week referring to the problems caused by the 'new' silencers... here's part of it When you have slick conditions you de-tune the bike for that but the problem you have now is that when the bike runs into grip and the revs drop, the power disappears and that means you have too much grip and the bike pulls too hard. And as hard as you try to hang on to it and as much throttle as you turn on, the engine wont recover quickly enough because of the lack of power that it produces at lower rpm. That is why you see so many riders getting off, it is as simple as that. They just cannot recover whereas before you had a much bigger window and when the bike got in trouble you could literally hang on to it, hold it flat out and the bike would get you out of trouble. You don’t have that safety net any more. The bike gets away from you. Look how violently bikes react now and in my opinion the new silencers have certainly increased the risks involved in racing. So whats the answer? Go back to the Status Quo.. Problem is, the Boffins want their bit, heath and Safety want their bit and the noise nimbies want their bit. And yes, Airfences have certainly done their bit, but otherwise we are back with the Nimbies, this is where its all started.. Edited July 6, 2013 by Starman2006 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 Many nasty injuries since the new silencers... Coincidental??.... Or not?? Have there been? Really? Every season since the Internet began we gave someone claim this year is the worst ever for injuries. It's not though, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 Have there been? Really? Every season since the Internet began we gave someone claim this year is the worst ever for injuries. It's not though, is it? did I say that did I??... And yes in my opinion there has been more bad injurys in the past few years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 did I say that did I??... And yes in my opinion there has been more bad injurys in the past few years. Now now boys, put the Handbags down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafski Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 GOOD piece (okay, I would say that) by Kelvin Tatum in SS this week referring to the problems caused by the 'new' silencers... here's part of it When you have slick conditions you de-tune the bike for that but the problem you have now is that when the bike runs into grip and the revs drop, the power disappears and that means you have too much grip and the bike pulls too hard. And as hard as you try to hang on to it and as much throttle as you turn on, the engine wont recover quickly enough because of the lack of power that it produces at lower rpm. That is why you see so many riders getting off, it is as simple as that. They just cannot recover whereas before you had a much bigger window and when the bike got in trouble you could literally hang on to it, hold it flat out and the bike would get you out of trouble. You don’t have that safety net any more. The bike gets away from you. Look how violently bikes react now and in my opinion the new silencers have certainly increased the risks involved in racing. If I remember correctly when the New Silencers were introduced the worry was that they would stifle the power output and make the bikes slower but I'm sure I saw some graphs posted on the net at the time that power outputs had hardly been affected between the old and new King but I cant remember if the torque curves were affected. It would appear that modern Speedway engines deliver their power in a sudden rush when they hit the power band in much the same way that 500 cc Grand Prix 2 strokes used to back in the 1980s and they were notoriously difficult to ride. At the risk of "Dumbing down" the sport perhaps the engines should be tuned for greater torque over a wider rev range thereby making them easier to ride. It might make for closer racing with the "Supermen" having less of an advantage but then again cream always rises to the top so maybe not. With the bikes being more controlable there should be less crashes and therefore hopefully less serious injuries although we have all seen riders get and walk away from hideous looking crashes and get seriously injured from an innocuous looking little get off so no guarantees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 If I remember correctly when the New Silencers were introduced the worry was that they would stifle the power output and make the bikes slower but I'm sure I saw some graphs posted on the net at the time that power outputs had hardly been affected between the old and new King but I cant remember if the torque curves were affected. It would appear that modern Speedway engines deliver their power in a sudden rush when they hit the power band in much the same way that 500 cc Grand Prix 2 strokes used to back in the 1980s and they were notoriously difficult to ride. At the risk of "Dumbing down" the sport perhaps the engines should be tuned for greater torque over a wider rev range thereby making them easier to ride. It might make for closer racing with the "Supermen" having less of an advantage but then again cream always rises to the top so maybe not. With the bikes being more controlable there should be less crashes and therefore hopefully less serious injuries although we have all seen riders get and walk away from hideous looking crashes and get seriously injured from an innocuous looking little get off so no guarantees. The only safest option I can think of is for cc to be reduced to 400cc. Riders & tuners are constantly testing for more raw speed. Time on the track ain't really any quicker but power output of the machines is. The 1000>6000rpm difference from an old motor (1990) is around 0.4 of a second faster (May not seem a great deal but that is massive). The torque is down though. The 1990 motors ran about 60bhp at 7000rpm but now it's around 10000rpm which means riders having to twist the throttle further south giving the impression on more speed but in fact they getting less & less throttle control and if the bike snaps the only option is pretty much 'get off the bike as soon as possible'. There isn't any more accidents than in previous seasons but there IS more for the higher profile & professional riders than before as they constantly keep looking for that 'raw speed'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 At the risk of "Dumbing down" the sport perhaps the engines should be tuned for greater torque over a wider rev range thereby making them easier to ride. long strokes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Have there been? Really? Every season since the Internet began we gave someone claim this year is the worst ever for injuries. It's not though, is it? Ohhh...,I have to ask...What WAS the year that was the worst for injuries since the internet began? It seems like you maybe have the stats to back up the claim that this isn't Having jokingly said that, I do know what you mean....and I wonder if there ARE any stats recorded by the SCB/BSPA. It seems like something that they maybe should keep track of. There was a period from the mid 80's to mid 90's where almost every World Champion suffered a nasty back/neck injury in their career, which was obviously not good for the sport and that has not been seen since then...There was also a little spate of deaths around the same period which, thankfully, hasn't been seen again in UK speedway...So some things have certainly improved since that era.... However, I suspect that there might be a little bit of complacency coming into the sport when it comes to air fences. I wasn't at Coventry on Friday but, if reports that I have read are accurate, Chris Holder's bike lifted the air fence and he hit a very solid object behind the air fence...It almost seems like the lessons of the earlier eras have been forgotten as much more trust is placed in the air fences. The air fences are great when they catch a rider, but if they are moved out of the way by the bike then they are worth nothing and what is behind them needs to be carefully considered....You can't just have a solid wall behind an air fence and think that everything is fine because the air fence is there.... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 i dont think its the speed of the bikes cause speeds are not really faster than 20 years ago but what is different is the speed of the back wheel . a modern speedway bike is pretty much at the top of its revs all the time and when the bike hits a rut or bump and takes off there is not enough room to get the revs down and control the bike. it covers the width of the track in about a second I would agree with you on that one,attended Edinburgh on Friday and Berwick last night and saw at least 1/2 dozen of the incident you mention at EACH track ,pit bend at Edinburgh ,exit to second bend at Berwick and at both tracks riders were lucky to get away without serious injury and some hairy moments for the other riders in the races concerned.IMO silencers certainly don't help the situation when a rider gets pushed out of the racing line and has to react by shutting the throttle,the bike just takes off.Its noticeable nowadays that race leaders keep the throttle wound on even when winning by miles ,I think this has to be done to keep out of trouble and ride the ruts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymondbudd Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Notable tweet from Holder this morning "what's the use of an air fence if it lifts up when you hit it, feet first concrete wall". A very valid point raised, and I think most have seen this happen before. I'm guessing that this phenomena doesn't occur with the polyfoam fence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coventry_Bee Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) It does look that the new generation of rider use the Air Fence as a rule to push the limits of speedway. Holder was unlucky on Friday, when riders crash into the air fence normally they try to let go of the bike, I think Harris is the best example, he doesn't want to be going into the fence with the bike. Had Holder gone into the fence at the speed he was going and the bike hadn't lifted the fence the bike could have done serious damage to chris. No matter what though it needs looking at because its such on Chris Holder, lets hope he comes back better and stronger. Edited July 7, 2013 by Coventry_Bee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) However, I suspect that there might be a little bit of complacency coming into the sport when it comes to air fences. I wasn't at Coventry on Friday but, if reports that I have read are accurate, Chris Holder's bike lifted the air fence and he hit a very solid object behind the air fence...It almost seems like the lessons of the earlier eras have been forgotten as much more trust is placed in the air fences. The air fences are great when they catch a rider, but if they are moved out of the way by the bike then they are worth nothing and what is behind them needs to be carefully considered....You can't just have a solid wall behind an air fence and think that everything is fine because the air fence is there.... Some of the vertical supports. like girders, that lurk behind some air fences look lethal. The lifting of an airfence by the first contact can leave these obstacles exposed for the secondary impact of one or more men. The constant back slapping everyone does about airfences has always made me a little uneasy whenever you see accident were the ATB as been massively dislodged, exposing these ugly looking posts. What are the rules now that deal with this. . Edited July 7, 2013 by Grand Central Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skodaman Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Ohhh...,I have to ask...What WAS the year that was the worst for injuries since the internet began? It seems like you maybe have the stats to back up the claim that this isn't Having jokingly said that, I do know what you mean....and I wonder if there ARE any stats recorded by the SCB/BSPA. It seems like something that they maybe should keep track of. There was a period from the mid 80's to mid 90's where almost every World Champion suffered a nasty back/neck injury in their career, which was obviously not good for the sport and that has not been seen since then...There was also a little spate of deaths around the same period which, thankfully, hasn't been seen again in UK speedway...So some things have certainly improved since that era.... However, I suspect that there might be a little bit of complacency coming into the sport when it comes to air fences. I wasn't at Coventry on Friday but, if reports that I have read are accurate, Chris Holder's bike lifted the air fence and he hit a very solid object behind the air fence...It almost seems like the lessons of the earlier eras have been forgotten as much more trust is placed in the air fences. The air fences are great when they catch a rider, but if they are moved out of the way by the bike then they are worth nothing and what is behind them needs to be carefully considered....You can't just have a solid wall behind an air fence and think that everything is fine because the air fence is there.... Weren't the back protectors introduced around that time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Some of the vertical supports. like girders, that lurk behind some air fences look lethal. The lifting of an airfence by the first contact can leave these obstacles exposed for the secondary impact of one or more men. The constant back slapping everyone does about airfences has always made me a little uneasy whenever you see accident were the ATB as been massively dislodged, exposing these ugly looking posts. What are the rules now that deal with this. WITH the FIM. There are strict guidelines about air-fences but are they being adhered to? Sloppy workmanship, human error, poor maintenance can all be factors in negating their effectiveness. Chris Holder is entitled to ask the question: why wasn't he properly protected when judging by accounts from people at Brandon(and his own) he could and should have got away with far less severe injuries. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) this problem has been around since the invention of air fences (remember luke priest at stoke) .the problem is more whats behind the air fence. if chris holders acident happend at wolves even with the air fence lifting the fence behind is mesh with no posts held by wires. the air fence has been an excuse for promotors to install concrete barriers for stock cars and i said this for a few years its a disaster waiting to happen. air/foam fences give 100% protection 95% of the time and when 4% happens and the air fence isnt effective the barrier behind should be . the other 1% is the accident that happens where no amount of safety measures would of made a difference because motorbike are dangerous by their very nature Edited July 7, 2013 by THE DEAN MACHINE 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 long strokes? I prefere a mix of long and short strokes!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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