crazysue Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Moxey63 you make some good points in your post particularly about the fans who no longer attend are not going so they can't tell us why they're not going. But yourself and Oldace who both no longer go haven't said exactly why you stopped going, all we've got is a vague "I was fed up with what was on offer", What was it you were fed up with, the racing, the lack of world class riders, the food, the music, tactical rides? It would help if you were more specific. I'm not connected to the sport in any way so can't do anything about it but there just may be some promoters reading this who might think "ahh so that's what they didn't like" and it might just give them food for thought. We read so many different opinions on here that it's difficult to know why the decline started. Some people say the racing isn't good enough some moan about the delays others complain about the cost some don't like the music played but most of these are just personal things. When I go Speedway it's for the racing I don't really care what the food is like or the type of music that's played. I'm sure most fans are like that so what was it that made you stop going? My eldest son stopped going once he hit 16 and had to pay adult rate, for a person still in full time compulsory education, it was far too much for him (or me) to find each week. Even student rates are too expensive for someone in 6th form, so he went from going every week to going once in the last 3 years and the same will happen with middle son in the future....youngest stopped going a couple of years ago but that was nothing to do with the actual sport (he is autistic and couldn't cope with the noise or the people) I am on my second time round on going to speedway, I initially started going in the 80's but stopped in the mid 90's because I started my family and because the cost became excessive. For the last 3 years, the only thing that has kept me going to speedway is the fact I run the Updates site, without it, I would have stopped going in 2010 and the fact that in the interim time, my middle son has become hooked on the sport. In the early days of my return, I would be on here every day, checking out the latest news, joining in the conversations etc but as the seasons have gone past and my interest has waned, I rarely come here now....a few seasons ago, I would know who rode where, their average etc, now I have to check all the time! For me, the constant changing of rules, the debacle of a few seasons ago with the not wanteds and the AGM, the advantage getting by the bending of rules to suit have all made me just that little bit disillusioned with it all. To be honest, once middle son has to pay the increased admittance (he is the same as eldest, one of the eldest in the year, so more time between turning 16 and being able to get a student card for concession rate in 6th form than a lot of others, almost a year!), will probably be the day I will stop going for good as otherwise I will be Billy no mates standing there....... and that day is not far away. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backless Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Two simple tweaks of what's currently happening which I reckon are worth considering ... do you think ? Amend the scoring system that works to eliminate the scoring system(s0 that don't - sounds good to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Spot on. The same happened last night with Bombers last lap pass of Smolinski. We keep hearing talk of how things are 'too complicated' etc etc and it keeps fans away. Its got absolutely nothing to do with that at all. There are far more complicated sports. Besides, new fans, who are the ones you are trying to attract will know nothing and not be interested in 'rolling averages' etc initially. It's only once they've taken an interest in the product will they start investigating further. Ah, tac rides, new fans. Reminds me of an occasion a season or two back. At a PL track for a league match, stood quite close to obvious newbies. Score after ht 7 was 27-15. Out came a rider in black and white who won the heat, home riders second and third. Our newbies had sussed the scoring system so down went the score. After a 4-2 in heat 9, they heard the score announced as 34-23. Looking puzzled, they asked me the score and I agreed at 34-23. 'We've got it at 34-20' they say. 'Ah, but you didn't double the tac riders score, you know, the one in black and white a heat or two earlier'. 'Ah, right'. said the one given the honour of filling in the programme. All was well again for another heat, a 4-2 home win. Out came a rider in black and white to finish third in a 1-5 reverse. Quick on the uptake, the newbie scribe put the score down. After the next (drawn) heat he heard the announcer give the score out as 46-29. Looking puzzled he stepped over to me and, before he could say anything, I said 'I bet you've got 46-30'. 'Yes, I have' he replied. So I told him it was 5-1 not 5-2 since the t/r didn't beat an opponent. 'What's this t/r all about then?' (or words to that effect) he asked. So I told him. Mickey Mouse was mentioned and something along the lines of 'why give them double points because they're getting hammered. They should pull their fingers out and get riding not take b****y hand-outs. They don't have stupid rules like that down the road' (meaning the local Football League team). The visiting team did pull their fingers out and two successive heat wins gave them a shout at a point coming into heat 15. The newbies were gone by then! Edited July 9, 2013 by Vincent Blackshadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Course they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Oh, the wonder of Apocrypha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Ah, tac rides, new fans. Reminds me of an occasion a season or two back. At a PL track for a league match, stood quite close to obvious newbies. Score after ht 7 was 27-15. Out came a rider in black and white who won the heat, home riders second and third. Our newbies had sussed the scoring system so down went the score. After a 4-2 in heat 9, they heard the score announced as 34-23. Looking puzzled, they asked me the score and I agreed at 34-23. 'We've got it at 34-20' they say. 'Ah, but you didn't double the tac riders score, you know, the one in black and white a heat or two earlier'. 'Ah, right'. said the one given the honour of filling in the programme. All was well again for another heat, a 4-2 home win. Out came a rider in black and white to finish third in a 1-5 reverse. Quick on the uptake, the newbie scribe put the score down. After the next (drawn) heat he heard the announcer give the score out as 46-29. Looking puzzled he stepped over to me and, before he could say anything, I said 'I bet you've got 46-30'. 'Yes, I have' he replied. So I told him it was 5-1 not 5-2 since the t/r didn't beat an opponent. 'What's this t/r all about then?' (or words to that effect) he asked. So I told him. Mickey Mouse was mentioned and something along the lines of 'why give them double points because they're getting hammered. They should pull their fingers out and get riding not take b****y hand-outs. They don't have stupid rules like that down the road' (meaning the local Football League team). The visiting team did pull their fingers out and two successive heat wins gave them a shout at a point coming into heat 15. The newbies were gone by then! What a crock of sh!t, totally made up crap to suit a point of view. Although to be honest I had the same happen to me at a Champions League football match. I was stood next to a new fan and when the full time aggregate score was announced as 3/3 he said when is the replay, I had to explain there wasn't one because the team with 2 away goals were deemed to have won, of course he was long gone before I finished explaining Edited July 9, 2013 by Oldace 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Course they were. What a crock of sh!t, totally made up crap to suit a point of view. Oh, the wonder of Apocrypha. How unexpected! If only they'd thought tac rides were a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 20 years ago my uncle a diehard speedway fan since his youth just suddenly stopped going for no other reason than had enough not disillusioned just had enough and starting to get on a bit roughly 60,me be that much younger could not believe it how he could just stop going now that I am approaching the same age have got exactly the same feeling ,still love when I go but sometimes just decide on the day to give it a miss more and more ,I am sure a lot of older fans drift away just the same way,trouble is the sport cannot seem to attract the younger fans and keep them.I think one of the main factors is that growing up in my era your Dad or family took you everywhere with him (football,speedway ect) until you were in your late teens and that introduced you to various sports nowadays most young people are doing their"own thing from very early teens and it is probably "not cool"to be away on family outings we have missed 2-3 generations of "young fans" for various reasons and the sport is suffering,and that's not counting the way it is run. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 I don't know if this is relevant. But I had a straw poll among my imaginary friends and they came out 2-1 in favour of tac rides. My therapist, on the other hand, prefers the old system of bonus points. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Same happen to me at a cricket match ,saw two new people there deep into the second innings when it started to rain . the first team had score 150 and the second team were 80 -4 at the time the game was call off with the team who batted first declared the winners. The newbies asked me why that was and I told it was because of the duckworth lewis method ,they then ask how could this be fair because the second team had not had the same amount of overs as the first and it was stupid and were never coming again . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 How unexpected! If only they'd thought tac rides were a good idea. If only they existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 If only they existed. They did, mate, and, more importantly, do - in most tracks around the country. You can tell by the empty spaces in the stands and terraces. Course, you don't have to believe me, you can just believe all newbies keep coming back because they find the sport riveting and the rules so fair and understandable. Now, if only THAT were true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 They did, mate, and, more importantly, do - in most tracks around the country. You can tell by the empty spaces in the stands and terraces. Course, you don't have to believe me, you can just believe all newbies keep coming back because they find the sport riveting and the rules so fair and understandable. Now, if only THAT were true! Now you're going totally off tangent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 They did, mate, and, more importantly, do - in most tracks around the country. You can tell by the empty spaces in the stands and terraces. Course, you don't have to believe me, you can just believe all newbies keep coming back because they find the sport riveting and the rules so fair and understandable. Now, if only THAT were true! As have been pointed out all sports have silly and complex rules .Most don't come back because they find speedway boring or don't take to it , to say it's because of the tac is rule is laughable ..no doubt in the old days these new people found the old rule fair and great lol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) They don't have stupid rules like that down the road' (meaning the local Football League team). The visiting team did pull their fingers out and two successive heat wins gave them a shout at a point coming into heat 15. The newbies were gone by then! I have heard next season they are introducing a rule in speedway where certain riders can only go on certain parts of the track at certain times depending on where opposition riders are, the opposition riders trying to catch them out all the time. Could you possibly get anything more ridiculous than that ? Football has it, its called offside (so any speedway fan can be thankful we don't have stupid rules like that). My point is not to show that football's rules are stupid, but that any comparison of the rules not just between speedway and football but between any two sports is utterly worthless. Edited July 9, 2013 by Halifaxtiger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Spot on. The same happened last night with Bombers last lap pass of Smolinski. We keep hearing talk of how things are 'too complicated' etc etc and it keeps fans away. Its got absolutely nothing to do with that at all. There are far more complicated sports. Besides, new fans, who are the ones you are trying to attract will know nothing and not be interested in 'rolling averages' etc initially. It's only once they've taken an interest in the product will they start investigating further. There is absolutely nothing 'contrived/fiddled/manipulated' about the scoring system. Of course there is BW. They say they want to 'make the Meetings closer to maintain excitement' - what is that if it is not contriving the Score. It is a contrivance to ensure a closer Result which ever way you look at it. Two simple tweaks of what's currently happening which I reckon are worth considering ... Firstly, most supporters can tolerate reasonable delays for medical matters but they don't like waiting around when the delay's less obvious and a prime case of that is when the referee agrees to give "extra time for a rider in 2 races in a row" without anyone knowing exactly how much extra time that means. Simple solution ... as soon as it's clear there's a "2 in a row" situation, the referee declares "4 minutes" instead of "2 minutes" (maybe with a different-sounding klaxon, buzzer or bell) and then there's no argument about how much extra time is being given ... reminders at 2-minutes, 1-minute and 30-seconds can still be announced as usual. Whether "4 minutes" could also be used for the re-run of a heat that's just had a pile-up wrecking a fair bit of machinery is more debatable but that's another situation where delays can start feeling as if they're delays just for the sake of it. Second tweak involves removing the need for the wretched tactical ride (or tactical substitute or anything else that rewards earlier mediocrity) by adding two extra levels to the existing levels of league-points. Remember, at the moment, it's as follows ... Home - 3 league points if winning by 7 or more, 2 league points for a smaller win, 1 league point for a draw Away - 4 league points if winning by 7 or more, 3 league points for a smaller win, 2 league points for a draw, 1 league point for losing by 6 or less If you get rid of tactical rides, you're back to a basic 90-points up for grabs over 15 heats (unless there are any heats with 2 or fewer finishers) instead of anything between 90 & 96 currently ending up on the scoreboard ... now, consider the following structure for league points with no tactical rides allowed ... Home - 5 league points for winning by 17 or more, 4 league points if winning by 9-to-16, 3 league points for a smaller win, 2 league points for a draw, 1 league point for losing by 8 or less, nothing for a heavier defeat Away - 6 league points for winning by 17 or more, 5 league points if winning by 9-to-16, 4 league points for a smaller win, 3 league points for a draw, 2 league points for losing by 8 or less, 1 league point for losing by 9-to-16, nothing for a heavier defeat Have a think about what you reckon are the plus-points and minus-points of that system ...essentially, it's turning the current 4 levels of the league-points into a 6-level system and while some supporters still prefer the bonus-point aggregate, I'd reckon a majority prefer the 4-level system now that they've had a few years to get used to it and so it shouldn't be too big a leap to get used to the 6-level system. Clearly it adds some extra columns to a league table if you're going to show all the columns for the various margins (sorry about that Manchester Paul whose tables can be very useful for detailed analysis) but arguably, it's easier for the media to simply print one column each for wins, draws and losses followed by a points-column that can't be immediately calculated from the earlier columns (already happens in much of rugby union and lower levels of rugby league). Barring chaotic scenes in any heat, it makes 54-points in a meeting the normal target for either side claiming maximum league points (probably meaning more incentive for a comfortably-winning home side to field their top riders in heat 15) while setting struggling away teams a normal target of 37-points to achieve any league points at all ... frankly, if you can't cobble together 37 in an away meeting (or 41 at home), you don't deserve anything. It also keeps more teams in the play-off hunt with a few meetings to go because they've still got a chance to zoom up the table with a 5-league-points home-win or 6-league-points away-win. Best of all it's goodbye to speedway's most ludicrous rule, namely the tactical ride that rewards a team with double the race-points for something that rider was going to be doing anyway ... yes, there's the occasional worthwhile fuss when a home reserve beats an away tactical number-1 (Paul Starke on his Berwick debut beating Leicester's Kauko Nieminen being a prime example this season) but that's not enough to make up for all the artificial results created by tactical rides or the general disbelief of newcomers that it's sometimes well worth a team doing badly in one race so they can rattle up double-points from their superstar in the next race. Thanks for reading all of this ... what do you think ? Jolly good Post arthur cross. I could definately live with that. What you say makes a hell of a lot of sense. I wouldn't have anything at all against such a system being used. It eliminates tactical rides and simply rewards teams for performance. There is no 'contriving' results involved. The better you do, the more league pts you earn. So you admit that there is 'contrivance' in the current System BW. At last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 My eldest son stopped going once he hit 16 and had to pay adult rate, for a person still in full time compulsory education, it was far too much for him (or me) to find each week. Even student rates are too expensive for someone in 6th form, so he went from going every week to going once in the last 3 years and the same will happen with middle son in the future....youngest stopped going a couple of years ago but that was nothing to do with the actual sport (he is autistic and couldn't cope with the noise or the people) I am on my second time round on going to speedway, I initially started going in the 80's but stopped in the mid 90's because I started my family and because the cost became excessive. For the last 3 years, the only thing that has kept me going to speedway is the fact I run the Updates site, without it, I would have stopped going in 2010 and the fact that in the interim time, my middle son has become hooked on the sport. In the early days of my return, I would be on here every day, checking out the latest news, joining in the conversations etc but as the seasons have gone past and my interest has waned, I rarely come here now....a few seasons ago, I would know who rode where, their average etc, now I have to check all the time! For me, the constant changing of rules, the debacle of a few seasons ago with the not wanteds and the AGM, the advantage getting by the bending of rules to suit have all made me just that little bit disillusioned with it all. To be honest, once middle son has to pay the increased admittance (he is the same as eldest, one of the eldest in the year, so more time between turning 16 and being able to get a student card for concession rate in 6th form than a lot of others, almost a year!), will probably be the day I will stop going for good as otherwise I will be Billy no mates standing there....... and that day is not far away. I would have thought that if there was one fan in speedway who is definitely not (and indeed won't be) 'billy no mates' its you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 As have been pointed out all sports have silly and complex rules .Most don't come back because they find speedway boring or don't take to it , to say it's because of the tac is rule is laughable ..no doubt in the old days these new people found the old rule fair and great lol They went before the end of the match. Maybe they found it boring or didn't take to it, maybe they felt their time would be better spent in their local pub, I don't know. What I do know is they didn't think much to that rule and told me so and left not long after. I never posted they left because of the rule but that, despite the fact the extra points gave the visiting team a chance of getting a point in heat 15 these folk weren't there to see it. Sorry if they didn't agree with some posters' opinions of that rule but there you go - not everybody does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 They went before the end of the match. Maybe they found it boring or didn't take to it, maybe they felt their time would be better spent in their local pub, I don't know. What I do know is they didn't think much to that rule and told me so and left not long after. I never posted they left because of the rule but that, despite the fact the extra points gave the visiting team a chance of getting a point in heat 15 these folk weren't there to see it. Sorry if they didn't agree with some posters' opinions of that rule but there you go - not everybody does. As if the hole wasn't big enough already ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) I stopped going to speedway, simply because of a continuation of niggles along the years. I personally don’t feel the sport is believable anymore due to silly rules, riders dashing all over the place to race for other clubs at home and abroad and a certain lack of continuity with clubs and the men who turn out for them. I know a lot of short termism is down to points limits, but I remember the days when team photographs weren’t outdated after one match, as of now, and you knew that your riders gave all for your team, and rules were just about as simple as they needed to be. Different points for teams winning by certain margins... it is too much hassle to keep up with. I can’t be bothered keeping tabs on that sort of thing. It doesn’t add anything to the overall excitement of the product. It is a cheap way out of getting the racing more exciting, like the pathetic Golden Double ridded us of the Tac Sub rule. Speedway is too far fetched now, when all that most fans wish for is a bit of decent racing and stability. I can’t justify the chilly terrace stand of a couple of hours pretending that riders are committed to the team to warrant me being there. The lack of actual real racing in the league (especially the Elite) is down to riders doing too much. I want riders to be loyal, not skipping in and out of airport lounges so they can race for another club. Would you begin to question it, say, if your misses had as many lovers as speedway riders had clubs… whether it was you she loved most of the four men she was dating? Would you question, the first time she had an off night with you but was a different person with her Tuesday-night date 24 hours later. I want riders, when they have had a bad match for my team, to ride back into form for my team and not buzz off somewhere else and suddenly look a different rider. Edited July 9, 2013 by moxey63 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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