Ludvig Lindgren (he's Fine Before You Worry!)

[BWitcher]

I'm a Wolves fan, but based on that rule, Ludvig shouldn't be allowed to double up it seems.

[idanthyrsus]

To quote the rule in full

 

An initial declaration can include only 2 Riders graded as "A" on the Listing approved at the EL AGM. In an initial or re-declaration up to 3 Doubling-Up Riders may be included who must at the time of (re)declaration: a) be in a Premier League’s currently Declared 1 – 7, b ) have a PL MA established prior to the start of the season and c) give absolute priority to all British Speedway fixtures.

 

Therefore, at the time of declaration Ludvig would have given absolute priority to British Speedway Fixtures. But at the time that the fixture was re-arranged according to the letter of the rule above then he needn't give absolute priority as Newcastle aren't (re) declaring their team. It is also clearly Wolves who would have to drop Lindgren as if Ludvig were unable to ride for Newcastle he wouldn't "be in a Premier League's currently Declared 1-7".

 

Secondly, I'd argue that the rule above would break EU trading laws as it is clearly a restriction on a person's right to trade and would therefore be considered illegal if challenged.

 

Thirdly, simply stating "FACT" after your statement does not make it true.

 

Bit of a dogs dinner isn't it?

 

just to clarify the bit about speeding, travelling at 71mph you would not get convicted due to the innacuracy of the recording equipment. That is why they have a tolerance of 10% +2, so you have to be travelling at 80mph (i.e. above 79mph) on a 70mph to actually get convicted.

 

Edited due to automated thing which transfers b ) to

Edited May 24, 2013 by idanthyrsus

[The White Knight]

I've heard some ABSOLUTE pedantic so and so's on here but some of the Comments on this Thread really take the biscuit.

 

An unforeseen set of circumstances occurred which mean't that Ludvig was unable to ride at Berwick. He COMMITTED himself to British Speedway at the start of the Season presumably after he had seen the Fixture List to ensure there were no clashes. he may NOT have seen the Fixtures, but that doesn't matter, he knows how British Speedway works. The BSPA then CHANGED the Fixture Date with about four weeks notice I believe. Now Ludvig obviously has a Contract with his Swedish Club too. He signed his Contract with Newcastle IN GOOD FAITH. It was the Authorities who moved the goalpost, made the change to suit SKY Television and his Club agreed to it. NONE of this has anything at all to do with Ludvig. Personally I don't think he should even have been Fined.

 

REMEMBER: 'RULES ARE FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FOOLS - AND THE GUIDANCE OF WISE MEN'!!! -Douglas Bader.

[wandersome]

Now Ludvig obviously has a Contract with his Swedish Club too.

 

surely to be taking advantage of our doubling up rules and the extra revenue that gives him against, say, someone like Matty Wethers for example, another Wolves asset (i think) riding in the same meeting he then needed to have made it clear to his swedish club on signing their contract that should a clash of fixtures occur then, for whatever reason, because of the absolute nature of the doubling up rule put in place to help his earnings as a dedicated UK league rider, he would have to drop out of their meetings. At that point the swedish club would then have made a decision on whether it was wise to sign him or not. If that wasn't the case and he still wanted to ride in Sweden to augment his UK earnings then he needed to say the double up rule isn't something i can comply with and someone like Wethers might then be able to take advantage of it.

[Tsunami]

I've heard some ABSOLUTE pedantic so and so's on here but some of the Comments on this Thread really take the biscuit.

 

An unforeseen set of circumstances occurred which mean't that Ludvig was unable to ride at Berwick. He COMMITTED himself to British Speedway at the start of the Season presumably after he had seen the Fixture List to ensure there were no clashes. he may NOT have seen the Fixtures, but that doesn't matter, he knows how British Speedway works. The BSPA then CHANGED the Fixture Date with about four weeks notice I believe. Now Ludvig obviously has a Contract with his Swedish Club too. He signed his Contract with Newcastle IN GOOD FAITH. It was the Authorities who moved the goalpost, made the change to suit SKY Television and his Club agreed to it. NONE of this has anything at all to do with Ludvig. Personally I don't think he should even have been Fined.

 

REMEMBER: 'RULES ARE FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FOOLS - AND THE GUIDANCE OF WISE MEN'!!! -Douglas Bader.

 

The most sensible post on the thread. Nevermind, that's two days some folks won't get back.

[SCB]

Therefore, at the time of declaration Ludvig would have given absolute priority to British Speedway Fixtures. But at the time that the fixture was re-arranged according to the letter of the rule above then he needn't give absolute priority as Newcastle aren't (re) declaring their team. It is also clearly Wolves who would have to drop Lindgren as if Ludvig were unable to ride for Newcastle he wouldn't "be in a Premier League's currently Declared 1-7".

Now we're getting somewhere and you may have a case. So this now only becomes an issue when/if wolves or Newcastle redeclared then.

 

 

And tell a judge you were doing 71mph and you WILL be convinced of speeding if the limit is 70mph. you're right about the 10% thing though and its why they dont send out fines/NIPs to people doing 71mph.

Edited May 24, 2013 by SCB

[Fourentee]

Is the case, basically, then that the rulebook cites absolute commitment to British fixtures but the authorities' agreement with SVEMO acknowledges that re-arranged British fixtures do not carry priority? And the hapless rider is stuck in the middle? Is that where we are? Because if so, I would have to sympathise with Lindgren's Twitter declaration: "I'm not paying anything I was in Sweden for Swedish elite league on their day: Tuesdays."

[Boobs]

I would have to sympathise with Lindgren's Twitter declaration: "I'm not paying anything I was in Sweden for Swedish elite league on their day: Tuesdays."

 

He might not think so, but at Berwick's next meeting, the referee will be handed a cheque for several hundreds of pounds (to pay the fines imposed on Paul Starke, the Newcastle promotion and, yes, Ludvig Lindgren). Otherwise, he/she won't start that meeting!

 

Berwick will have already deducted the money from their payment to the Newcastle promotion for the points scored by their riders on Tuesday.

 

Newcastle will either deduct Ludvig's fine from his next pay-cheque or suck it up themselves. But whatever, that fine will be paid

[Arson fire]

Well newcastle should pay it for him in that case.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Doesnt that Twitter comment re not paying the fine and that Sweden takes priority for him mean that Ludvig is confirming he is not prepared to make Britain his absolute priority as the rule requires?

 

Would surely have been wiser to have said he was frustrated he couldnt ride as he wouldve been banned by SVEMO that he understands and accepts the fine and hopes he is not put in such an impossible position in the future.

[wandersome]

Can someone let me know what the exact point of the double up facility is?

I was under the impression that is in place so English based riders or riders that base their career around riding in the UK have the ability to compete and make a living equivalent to riders who also have careers based elsewhere (such as Sweden, Denmark, Poland etc). I'm sure i've heard people in high places say this is the case also. That would appear to be born out by the ruling stating that priority should be absolute so as to put off riders who might see doubling up in the UK as another way of supplementing even further their foreign earnings at the expense of a whole bunch of riders who the rule was actually set out to help.

 

That's not pedantic, it's surely being fair to the riders the rule was put in place to help out who currently appear to be missing out.

 

If you are doubling up and then sign for a foreign league it needs to be in your foreign league contract that Britsh leagues take precedence at all times as that is what the rules in the UK state. If you can't do it, don't do it.

 

Tsunami?, White Knight?

 

The twitter comment says it all.

 

Mick.

Edited May 25, 2013 by volty

[Tsunami]

Can someone let me know what the exact point of the double up facility is?

I was under the impression that is in place so English based riders or riders that base their career around riding in the UK have the ability to compete and make a living equivalent to riders who also have careers based elsewhere (such as Sweden, Denmark, Poland etc). I'm sure i've heard people in high places say this is the case also. That would appear to be born out by the ruling stating that priority should be absolute so as to put off riders who might see doubling up in the UK as another way of supplementing even further their foreign earnings at the expense of a whole bunch of riders who the rule was actually set out to help.

 

That's not pedantic, it's surely being fair to the riders the rule was put in place to help out who currently appear to be missing out.

 

If you are doubling up and then sign for a foreign league it needs to be in your foreign league contract that Britsh leagues take precedence at all times as that is what the rules in the UK state. If you can't do it, don't do it.

 

Tsunami?, White Knight?

 

The twitter comment says it all.

 

Mick.

 

You are correct in the history of the D/U positions. It was devised to give British riders the opportunity to stay and rode meetings at home, rather than have to ride abroad for extra income. In addition, it also allowed up and coming riders to dabble with the higher league to give them senior experience and to test their ability against higher riders.

Unfortuately, rider shortage is such that there is not enough riders around to maintain that situation and the D/U arrangement has been extended to foreign riders.

 

Back on subject

In summary

Meeting agreed in April with both clubs and Tuesdays and Swedes were noted. Swedish League hadn't started and both teams were in D/D situations in Sweden so alternatives for their Swedish teams.

Lingren does well in both countries and rides more than his partner

Robin doesn't and then, I am told, has been dropped.

Federation agreements in place that correctly say original fixtures published have priority over rescheduled meetings.

Because of his form, Ludvig's team make him ride and Robin is now free to ride for Bandits.

R/R is already in place for Newcastle's Tully, and a guest requested but SCB say no, 3 point junior must ride in place. There is precedent of this arrangement in the past but request is still refused.

2 Newcastle promoters not happy, naturally, and threaten to pull out of the meeting.

Newcastle ride the team they are told to ride, but BSPA fine them for an understrength team(which won on the night of course, away from home)

Boobs. Lindgren NOT fined for non appearance, as he was obeying agreed Federation agreements which has seniority over home rearrangements.

 

Newcastle win an exceptional meeting, fully boyed up by what had happened, and Starke's inappropriate action.

Newcastle appeal against the SCB fine.

No D/U rules broken.

 

End of, and note no posters were lost during the waste of two discussion days.

At no time does SCB mean the original poster of this thread.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Tsunami

[wandersome]

You are correct in the history of the D/U positions. It was devised to give British riders the opportunity to stay and rode meetings at home, rather than have to ride abroad for extra income. In addition, it also allowed up and coming riders to dabble with the higher league to give them senior experience and to test their ability against higher riders.

Unfortuately, rider shortage is such that there is not enough riders around to maintain that situation and the D/U arrangement has been extended to foreign riders.

 

What you say is a little sad. There are plenty of riders in the UK who i'm sure would welcome the opportunity to double up in a reserve position in the EL. Picking a couple of UK based riders randomly for my point i will take our own Kev Doolan or your own Christian Henry (i have no idea whatsoever whether they would want to double up though there are similar who would) . If they had the extra income from d/u in the EL and Ludvig Lindgren lost the extra income from riding both EL, PL and both swedish leagues then maybe they would be closer to competing on an equal footing. Equally, if you say it would be the PL missing the riders because Lindgren would still be riding EL then i'm sure riders are available, even if it ends up with you having to promote the likes of Lewis Kerr up to the PL. You never know they might turn out to be a revelation given the opportunity. Either way, it would actually be UK based riders who were benefitting from a rule set up to benefit UK based riders, hopefully making UK speedway stronger for it.

 

I have to say, and don't be offended as it's only my viewpoint, but your answer looks more like promoters fitting decent riders you'd prefer in your team and then making arguments to fit those objectives.

Edited May 25, 2013 by volty

[screm]

I find it very strange how a team can be fined for being understrength,and win the meeting.

[SCB]

I find it very strange how a team can be fined for being understrength,and win the meeting.

Its happened many times over the years. Technically, you're not being fined for being under-strength, you're being fined for having a rider missing.

[Shadders]

Given absolute priority to British fixtures is something that very few overseas riders do now,tonight you have Hans Anderson chasing Danish Final glory,if he`s to give absolute priority shouldnt he be at Swindon.

 

Im sure Lindgren wouldve loved to have raced at Shielfield the other night,but his Swedish fixture wouldve been arranged months ago where the Berwick v Newcastle meeting was brought forward at a few weeks notice.

 

Had lindgren told SVEMO is was not racing for Vastervik and would race for Newcastle,chances are you wouldnt have seen Lindgren race over here for quite some time.

That was my understanding also

[screm]

Its happened many times over the years. Technically, you're not being fined for being under-strength, you're being fined for having a rider missing.

 

Fair enough,can we take it then that Swindon wouldve been fined when they turned up at Kings Lynn without Hans Anderson as their No1,Lewis Blackbird taking his place.Then Rye House a couple of weeks ago when Nelson missed their meeting with Sheffield having had his visa turned down by Ukraine.

[Shadders]

Fair enough,can we take it then that Swindon wouldve been fined when they turned up at Kings Lynn without Hans Anderson as their No1,Lewis Blackbird taking his place.Then Rye House a couple of weeks ago when Nelson missed their meeting with Sheffield having had his visa turned down by Ukraine.

Were Berwick fined for Belego's absence on Tuesday?

[screm]

Were Berwick fined for Belego's absence on Tuesday?

 

Surely getting beat by a 4 man Newcastle team was punishment enough.

[HenryW]

...

Thanks for the extra info Tsunami.

 

In conclusion:

 

1. The rule for doubling up in the UK states the rider must "give absolute priority to all British Speedway fixtures".

2. There is an agreement with SVEMO that states that original published fixtures have priority over rescheduled fixtures.

 

As it is impossible to meet point 1 whilst contracted to compete in SVEMO events, obviously no rider who has such a contract for SVEMO events is eligible for a double up position in the UK.

 

Couldn't be simpler than that. Thanks for clarifying.