John Leslie Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 No he doesnt but your quote was about giving absolute priority to British fixtures,something that Anderson isnt doing tonight,and Swindon have a guest facility at their disposal. Andersen doesn't double up. The rules say that to be eligible to double up you have to be able to give British League fixtures absolute priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 How can a rider give absolute priority to British fixtures when clubs sky and the Bspa sanction fixture changes?? There has to be flexibility around these situations, just like the Jason Doyle situation last week. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I can see both sides of the story. As per the rules (as they are written) SCB is correct. Common sense tells us that the right thing has taken place.... but herein lies the problem.. rules are enforced one moment, ignored the next. There needs to be consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 How can a rider give absolute priority to British fixtures when clubs sky and the Bspa sanction fixture changes?? There has to be flexibility around these situations, just like the Jason Doyle situation last week. Thats the reason for the rule. To make sure that rider are available when this kind of thing happens. If you ride in a foreign league you cannot give absolute priority can you? So if you ride abroad you shouldn't be doubling up. It's like the rule that used to say Brits got a 2.5% reduction and claiming, "Ludvig wnats to be British" - if you fit the criteria or you don't and in this case Ludvig doesn't He SHOULD NOT be allowed to double up. Newcastle and Wolves should be given a week to sort out who he is going to ride for. If one or the other doesn't drop him, neither can use him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) Thats the reason for the rule. To make sure that rider are available when this kind of thing happens. If you ride in a foreign league you cannot give absolute priority can you? So if you ride abroad you shouldn't be doubling up. It's like the rule that used to say Brits got a 2.5% reduction and claiming, "Ludvig wnats to be British" - if you fit the criteria or you don't and in this case Ludvig doesn't He SHOULD NOT be allowed to double up. Newcastle and Wolves should be given a week to sort out who he is going to ride for. If one or the other doesn't drop him, neither can use him. so you don't have any common sense then?? If the Bspa ratify a fixture change they expect everyone just to change all prior commitments?? That's draconian man... Give yourself a shake.... Doyle is supposed to have priorities to somerset over brum, there was a fixture change, I'd presume sanctioned by the Bspa.... Common sense prevailed and he rode for Brum as it wasn't there fault.... Threre are rules but im sure the management committee will have authority to do as they see fit.... With each individual case, on its merits. Had it been an existing fixture he missed then I would agree, but it wasn't. For example .... If you go over 70 on any uk road you are breaking the law..... However if you were doing 71 72 73 74 you wouldn't be done?? In your eyes,Why?? as you were breaking the rules of the road.... Life and situations arnt as literal and as concrete as your thinking thank god. Edited May 23, 2013 by Arson fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Leslie Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Surely the idea of doubling up is to give financial help to young or upcoming riders who can't yet get extra rides in foreign leagues? Ideally doubling up would be for Brits only...we need to help our own...but someone would whinge about that. I have no problem with Aussies or Americans etc, who base themselves in Britain for the season, also doubling up. But no one should be riding in Swedish and/or Polish leagues and doubling up in both our leagues. It should be solely for riders who have a limited income by not being able to ride abroad and who can give Britain their undivided attention. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) so you don't have any common sense then?? If the Bspa ratify a fixture change they expect everyone just to change all prior commitments?? That's draconian man... Give yourself a shake.... Doyle is supposed to have priorities to somerset over brum, there was a fixture change, I'd presume sanctioned by the Bspa.... Common sense prevailed and he rode for Brum as it wasn't there fault.... Threre are rules but im sure the management committee will have authority to do as they see fit.... With each individual case, on its merits. Had it been an existing fixture he missed then I would agree, but it wasn't. For example .... If you go over 70 on any uk road you are breaking the law..... However if you were doing 71 72 73 74 you wouldn't be done?? In your eyes,Why?? as you were breaking the rules of the road.... Life and situations arnt as literal and as concrete as your thinking thank god. So what is the point of the rule? What do you think, using common sense, the purpose of the rule is? I expect this to be good. Stand in a court of law and tell the judge, "I was only doing 71 your honour" and you'll be done for speeding. FACT. The only reason they don't do you until you have hit 77 is spedometers are only 10% accurate. Was Ludvig only 90% riding in Sweden? Edited May 23, 2013 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 "The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 "The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions". So there is no reasoning for it. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 So there is no reasoning for it. Thanks. there is, there are mitigating circumstances, which you know but choose to ignore, the severity of any punishment of any rule/law breaker(s) is always determined after all factors are considered.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 there is, there are mitigating circumstances, which you know but choose to ignore, the severity of any punishment of any rule/law breaker(s) is always determined after all factors are considered.... Sorry, no, I completely disagree. The wording of that rule is clear enough to state that mitigating circumstances don't come into it. The rider WILL give priority to British fixtures. If they can't give that priority then they should NOT have a doubling up position. I agree with what John Leslie said, and I suspect the rules were written in the way they were for the reasons he says.... Surely the idea of doubling up is to give financial help to young or upcoming riders who can't yet get extra rides in foreign leagues? Ideally doubling up would be for Brits only...we need to help our own...but someone would whinge about that. I have no problem with Aussies or Americans etc, who base themselves in Britain for the season, also doubling up. But no one should be riding in Swedish and/or Polish leagues and doubling up in both our leagues. It should be solely for riders who have a limited income by not being able to ride abroad and who can give Britain their undivided attention. Doubling up should only be available to riders who are 100% committed to UK speedway, no exceptions. If a rider cannot commit to all fixtures in the UK then they should NOT be able to double up...The rule doesn't have wiggle room. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) Sorry, no, I completely disagree. The wording of that rule is clear enough to state that mitigating circumstances don't come into it. The rider WILL give priority to British fixtures. If they can't give that priority then they should NOT have a doubling up position. I agree with what John Leslie said, and I suspect the rules were written in the way they were for the reasons he says.... Doubling up should only be available to riders who are 100% committed to UK speedway, no exceptions. If a rider cannot commit to all fixtures in the UK then they should NOT be able to double up...The rule doesn't have wiggle room. i agree, if he had have missed a scheduled meeting, it was re arranged for tv and not his fault or his doing, it was meant to be Saturday which he would have rode, had he deliberately missed that then yes ok..I agree with the rule, but this was a rearranged meeting... He's only been fined, so obviously someone realises people make commitments around a given schedule....would have been a farce even more had aspegren been need and edburg still been at berwick.... I still think Newcastle must take some of the blame, they should have ensured each rider was commited and available before agreeing to rearrange. Double uppers are also meant to give priority to PL clubs, but don't due to re arranged fixtures... Common sense has to be applied in situations that arnt the norm IMO. Edited May 23, 2013 by Arson fire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclone Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Sorry, no, I completely disagree. The wording of that rule is clear enough to state that mitigating circumstances don't come into it. The rider WILL give priority to British fixtures. If they can't give that priority then they should NOT have a doubling up position. I agree with what John Leslie said, and I suspect the rules were written in the way they were for the reasons he says.... Doubling up should only be available to riders who are 100% committed to UK speedway, no exceptions. If a rider cannot commit to all fixtures in the UK then they should NOT be able to double up...The rule doesn't have wiggle room. If that is the case, as Ludvig Lindgren was initially signed by Newcastle and Wolves only took him on when their original choice, Masters, became unavailable, then imo Wolverhampton should no longer be permitted to use him in their declared 1 - 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 i agree, if he had have missed a scheduled meeting, it was re arranged for tv and not his fault or his doing, it was meant to be Saturday which he would have rode, had he deliberately missed that then yes ok.. I agree with the rule, but this was a rearranged meeting... He's only been fined, so obviously someone realises people make commitments around a given schedule....would have been a farce even more had aspegren been need and edburg still been at berwick.... I still think Newcastle must take some of the blame, they should have ensured each rider was commited and available before agreeing to rearrange. Double uppers are also meant to give priority to PL clubs, but don't due to re arranged fixtures... Common sense has to be applied in situations that arnt the norm IMO. But if you're right and he had mitigating circumstances, he wouldn't have got the fine would he? the fine is standard practice for any rider missing a meeting and riding elsewhere, so it stands to reason the same should be done about his doubling up position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Eye Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Doubling up should only be available to riders who are 100% committed to UK speedway, no exceptions. If a rider cannot commit to all fixtures in the UK then they should NOT be able to double up...The rule doesn't have wiggle room. So someone like Craig Cook shouldn't be allowed to double up in case he gets selected for the World Cup and has to miss an Edinburgh fixture? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) But if you're right and he had mitigating circumstances, he wouldn't have got the fine would he? the fine is standard practice for any rider missing a meeting and riding elsewhere, so it stands to reason the same should be done about his doubling up position. he is commited to ride in all British fixtures, he gets a schedule of fixtures, no English team rides on a tues because mainly of Sweden... You can't then expect him to back out if a meeting that has been scheduled for months, for one that was changed 4 weeks ago, it maybe rules but its also personal morals and loyalty.... Sky, Newcastle and the Bspa have unfairly put him in this position IMO, I understand what your point, but it's hardly his fault.... Can you imagine wolves v anyone being moved to a Tuesday for eg?? It wouldn't happen because of Sweden.... I personally don't think he had much choice but to ride over there, I'd have done the same. What would happen if he was in the GPS or under 21s and had to miss a meeting??..... Sorry luddy but your at Leicester this Saturday with Newcastle and therefore have to miss this weeks GP. Edited May 23, 2013 by Arson fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 i agree, if he had have missed a scheduled meeting, it was re arranged for tv and not his fault or his doing, it was meant to be Saturday which he would have rode, had he deliberately missed that then yes ok.. Sorry. I still disagree. The rule is absolutely clear and actually uses the word "absolute"... The definition of "absolute" can't be argued. It doesn't matter whether the rider would like to give priority. It doesn't matter if the meeting wasn't originally scheduled. Absolute is absolute... If you can't give absolute priority because of other commitments, you can't give absolute priority... As John Leslie suggested, the option of doubling up is about riders who haven't broken out of UK speedway. It's not legally possible to make it a British rider only rule, but the rule that has been put in place is an attempt to keep it restricted to those not stretching themselves across multiple nations....and regardless of how much Ludvig would like to have been at Berwick, he couldn't be there and as the rules are written he should NOT be allowed to double up. You can say it's harsh on him, but the double up rule was never meant for riders like him, so I don't think it would be harsh to cut him off from that option... Double uppers are also meant to give priority to PL clubs, but don't due to re arranged fixtures... Common sense has to be applied in situations that arnt the norm IMO. That is another thing that has sneeked in outside of the originally published rules and I am completely opposed to that as well... Is it really "common sense" that a rider that has signed for a PL club and is doubling up for an EL club can be forced to miss a PL meeting because of when the fixtures were arranged, despite the fact that the rules say that the PL team has priority? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 So what is the point of the rule? What do you think, using common sense, the purpose of the rule is? I expect this to be good. Stand in a court of law and tell the judge, "I was only doing 71 your honour" and you'll be done for speeding. FACT. The only reason they don't do you until you have hit 77 is spedometers are only 10% accurate. Was Ludvig only 90% riding in Sweden? Ludvig actually was 0 % in Sweden-his meeting was fogged off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wandersome Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) It's indefensible. The rule was bought in for a specific reason. To help riders willing to dedicate themselves to the British leagues and yet Lindgren hasn't done that. He has put himself in a position that he can't do that by signing for Swedish league teams (as far as i can see he actually rides for 2 of them). It's unfortunate for the lad but it does go against the whole point of doubling up if you then allow him to drop out because he has swedish league commitments, irrespective of the reasons behind that. The rule is there to help the revenue stream of riders that don't ride in other leagues around the world but It's specifically worded as far as i see so as to show the benefit available from doubling up is both to the the rider AND the British leagues. There are plenty of riders who can dedicate themselves to the UK, quite a few were even riding in that Berwick V Newcastle meeting. Edited May 24, 2013 by volty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Leslie Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 So someone like Craig Cook shouldn't be allowed to double up in case he gets selected for the World Cup and has to miss an Edinburgh fixture? World Cup??? He's British. How can he go riding for Poland or Sweden in the World Cup? :blink: In any case Lindgren riding for Sweden in the World Cup wouldn't matter. Doubling up should only be for riders who are not contracted to a foreign league. If Craig Cook had signed to ride for a Polish League or Swedish League team, then yes, he shouldn't be allowed to double up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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