Wild Cards 2014

[Dave the Mic]

 

You've got to admit it's all very suspicious though, Phil. Or at the very least a massive coincidence. After finally giving up on Harris pre-season, the following happens;

• Whilst Harris was a full time rider (largely through Wild Card picks) the Cardiff Wild Card has gone to the highest placed non GP rider in the British Final for the past few seasons. This system seemed to work well and gave riders in the British Final extra impetus to do well.

   

  Low and behold, as soon as Harris lost his full time Grand Prix place, and heaven forbid, risked not qualifying for Cardiff, somebody decided to gift him his place, apparently without consulting the rest of British Speedway.

• After a truly dismal qualifying performance in the first round of the Grand Prix Qualifiers, Bomber bombs out of the qualifiers for another year. Or so we thought…

• Fast forward to the Grand Prix Challenge and after some dismay from riders and fans at the Cardiff WIld Card decision, Danny King is given the Poole Wild Card. Great, we thought, finally a new rider being given a chance.

   

  Then in the build up to the meeting, Zagar, Harris' former Trelawny team mate and one of the GP Challenge favourites (and a rider who was just inside the top 8 of the Grand Prix table at the time, with no guarantee of qualifying), apparently can't decide whether he wants to do the Poole meeting or not and the following questions arise;

1. Why doesn't Zagar, after going through the effort and expense of the qualifying rounds all over Europe, just do one more meeting at a track he knows quite well?
2. Why doesn't Zagar, when his chance of qualifying by right in the Grand Prix series is still uncertain, try to GUARANTEE his place in the 2014 series by riding just five rides at Poole?
3. If Zagar felt guilty about taking the place of another rider, (although I can't remember compassion and Zagar ever going hand in hand before AND we are talking about an individual format, where none of Zagar's countrymen are next in line) why did he leave it right to the last minute to make his decision? If he wanted a deserving rider to take a place, i.e Pavlic, Buczkowski or Dilger, why not give them a plenty of time to get there?

• What happens next? Zagar, pulls out right at the very last minute, and apparently the only rider who could be bothered, or was able to reach Poole in time, was the rider about 37th in line, you guessed it, Chris Harris. This despite Buczkowski (2nd in line) being in the country the previous night…

• Phil Rising quite rightly points out that FIM organise the Grand Prix Challenge, not BSI. BUT. and it's a big BUT, Harris' inclusion in this meeting rested on Zagar's decision, a rider who BSI could 'unofficially' guarantee a place the following season anyway, irrespective of his finishing place. You see, given points 1, 2 and 3, I can't think of a single logical reason why Zagar would pull out at the very last minute, unless he was told his place was safe for 2014, whether he finished in the top 8 or not.

Of course, I'm probably reading far too much into this, and Harris (who has also received five series wild cards) has never received preferential treatment. All of the above is purely coincidental…

 

JT.

 

You cannot honestly believe this to be true.

[Dave the Mic]

You fail to convince me on any of your points.In fact most miss and you have to revert to the old old one of "He is risking his life for our entertainment.....".Face facts.Harris went out not to entertain,but to make the top 8 or better during his time in the GPs.Mostly he didn't make it,which not only in my opinion,but surely his,meant he failed to live up to his expectations.This makes him a failure and because he failed on a number of occasions means he is a serial failure whether you like it or not.

 

Quite often i have not been entertained when going to meetings or watching them on tv/livestream which by your criteria means quite a lot of riders are failures.They do it to make money and don't think of me in the slightest.

 

The scores i quoted which are fact are only irrelevant because you don't like them and don't fit what you are saying.As it was,the German Fedration came out and stated that the rules were broken by including Harris without first informing them that there was a vacancy and for them to supply quite rightly a rider for that vacancy.Now i don't know what you call not following or breaking a rule,but to me that is not lawful,i.e illegal.Ok this is speedway and we get used to rules being broken,but what word would you use to describe that then?As a German rider should have been in,instead of Harris those are the grounds,regardless of whether Smoli qualified.I think if we go back to the early rounds in which Harris got his entertaining 4 points at least one German other than Smolinski scored more and did qualify for the next round.Maybe he would have scored more again if he was in the Poole meeting?

I wasn't going to reply to this, but the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to. I respect all views on here, we all have an opinion & are entitled to it. Your comments here though are laughable. The average scores are not relevant, not because they don't fit my thinking, but because they are not relevant in the process for qualification from the meeting in question. It wouldn't have mattered to me if it was Harris, Ricky Wells, Ludvig Lindgren or Ian Botham to be honest, but the point is due process was followed (see Phil Rising's post, he having checked with the FIM) & no one took up the vacancy in the meeting, so the FIM offered the place the British Authorities. The fact is, Harris wasn't the first rider to be offered the place, but when offered it, took it because he wanted to race, when others didn't.

 

So how is it "illegal"? By what law? The White House, The European Parliament, ADAC, Judge Judy or yours?

 

However, all this is insignificant really compared to your other comments. Entertainment is a subjective thing & it's very sad for you that you have been to meetings where you haven't been entertained. Personally, I am entertained at every meeting I see, because I marvel at the skill & bravery of the riders who go out on track in all conditions. Your comment about making money isn't especially valid. Do you think the lads in the NL & let's say PL reserves make money? Nope. And to say riders don't think about the fans is as ridiculous as it is inaccurate. It is doubtful that there is a sport where the riders interact with & are so involved with the fans as they are in speedway.

 

I am the director of a business in the South West & we employ 8 people, myself included. We continued to employ those staff over the last 5 years during some of the most difficult economic times this country has ever seen & we sustained a six figure profit for all of that time, whilst still providing a high quality service.

 

We aim to do business with every client we see. Of course, we don't ever achieve that & don't expect to, but does that make us a failure? Of course it doesn't.

 

What you suggest is the essentially every rider is a failure if they don't entertain you & every rider that doesn't win every event they enter is a failure too.

 

Is Nicki Pedersen a failure because he didn't win the GP this year? What about Jarek Hampel or Greg Hancock. And what about Edinburgh Monarchs? Are they failures too. The answer to this is no, of course they aren't. Not everyone achieves what they want to achieve all the time, but it doesn't make them a failure.

 

And finally, the "old one" of risking their lives for our entertainment. Mmmm. They know the risks, I get that. I have followed speedway for long enough to understand that. But it doesn't lessen the fact that it's true & you pouring scorn on this fact does you no credit all, given that you are using it simply to try & push home your opinion.

 

I have been present when riders have been killed, Tony Sanford died about 10 feet from me at Exeter & I was also 20 yards away from Garry Stead when he was paralysed at Somerset just a few years ago & perhaps you would like to ask Julie Richardson & her boys about riders risking their very being whenever they race & see if she thinks it's an "old chestnut". Your comments are, from a so called speedway fan, disappointing, disrespectful & to be honest, offensive.

 

All I would hope for is that riders entertain us & they do so & that what I wish for is that riders are safe at the end of a nights racing, which sadly isn't always the case. Who wins & who loses doesn't really matter, I'm a bit old for favourites. I don't really care what you think about my opinion, but your throw away line about riders wellbeing is out of order.

[Star Fever]

Andy Smith was never given a wild card. He either gained his place through the series or qualified through the challenge.

 

 

OK - Apologies for my poor memory. Doesn't deflect from the question I was answering though - to name somebody with a worse record than Harris.

[racers and royals]

An average finishing position of between 9th and 10th over that period is not the performance of an average rider at world level.

 

Andy Smith was never given a wild card. He either gained his place through the series or qualified through the challenge.

 

Quite.

 

Correct Phil on both counts and thanks also for confirming what I had said previously, which was that 1) The GPC and qualification is run and sanctioned by the FIM and is nothing to do with BSI and 2) That the correct procedure for Harris' inclusion at Poole was followed.

 

 

 

Sorry but we don`t know that the correct procedure was followed at all-until we are told-hopefuly under the freedom of information act-the answer to the following questions.

1 when did Zagar notify the FIM he was not riding at poole ?

2 when were the Croatian federation asked whether Pavlic would take his place ? and when did they reply no ?

3 when were the polish Federation asked whether Buczkowski would take his place ? and when did they say no-I have already posted on more than one occasion that Buczkowski was in the Country riding for Peterborough the night before the Poole meeting.

We also know that the German`s are angry that next in line after that-Dilger was never asked.

Edited November 1, 2013 by racers and royals

[PHILIPRISING]

NOT sure the Freedom of Information Act applies in Switzerland...

[Terry]

OK - Apologies for my poor memory. Doesn't deflect from the question I was answering though - to name somebody with a worse record than Harris.

Anyone who hasn't won a gp.

[PHILIPRISING]

GOOD point

[iris123]

I wasn't going to reply to this, but the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to. I respect all views on here, we all have an opinion & are entitled to it. Your comments here though are laughable.

Your points are all flawed as i have pointed out previous.

 

You were the one who came out with this stuff about a rider is doing it all for my entertainment.I don't belive that theory,but if we go by your theory, then like i say.....a lot have failed

 

As for Phil explaining the situation.Well no he hasn't as R&R has pointed out and as the german fedration pointed out.The German Federation even went so far as to accuse the FIM person in charge of not knowing the rules he is supposed to be using.There are various things here that just don't add up backed by the German accusation.It must have been pretty serious for them to come out and accuse Castagna of being out of his depth in the job.What we don't know is how they go about requesting a replacement.If they ask the first federation to get in touch with their rider and it takes a day or more to get an answer and then they ask the next federation etc. well time will surely run out and maybe one could think that might have been the point of the exercise.We must wonder why Buczkowski didn't take up his place if he was informed.But it seems certain that only two federations were contacted and then they gave up before contacting the Germans.All pretty sloppy and leaves a bad taste

 

The rest of it isn't worth taking the time to answer

[Dave the Mic]

Your points are all flawed as i have pointed out previous.

 

You were the one who came out with this stuff about a rider is doing it all for my entertainment.I don't belive that theory,but if we go by your theory, then like i say.....a lot have failed

 

As for Phil explaining the situation.Well no he hasn't as R&R has pointed out and as the german fedration pointed out.The German Federation even went so far as to accuse the FIM person in charge of not knowing the rules he is supposed to be using.There are various things here that just don't add up backed by the German accusation.It must have been pretty serious for them to come out and accuse Castagna of being out of his depth in the job.What we don't know is how they go about requesting a replacement.If they ask the first federation to get in touch with their rider and it takes a day or more to get an answer and then they ask the next federation etc. well time will surely run out and maybe one could think that might have been the point of the exercise.We must wonder why Buczkowski didn't take up his place if he was informed.But it seems certain that only two federations were contacted and then they gave up before contacting the Germans.All pretty sloppy and leaves a bad taste

 

The rest of it isn't worth taking the time to answer

Yeah, yeah. All in your opinion. So in your view, it was all a conspiracy to get Harris in the GP. Of course. Especially as Cook was offered a place before him. And at no time did I say they were doing it all just to entertain us. I said, that they risk their necks to entertain us & indeed, they do.

 

And the reason it isn't worth your answer is because your comments are offensive and you have no defence.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Dave the Mic

[PHILIPRISING]

IF the Germans actually knew what they were talking about they would have known that Armando Castagna wasn't involved either. It is the job of the CCP Secretary in Geneva to notify federations in cases such as these.

 

Sounds like some sour grapes in there because they wanted their own candidate, Wolfgang Glas, to get the job that Armando has.

 

But, even if the FIM cocked up, it still wasn't the fault of Harris and the fact remains that several others in front of him in the queue did turn it down.

[iris123]

IF the Germans actually knew what they were talking about they would have known that Armando Castagna wasn't involved either. It is the job of the CCP Secretary in Geneva to notify federations in cases such as these.

 

Sounds like some sour grapes in there because they wanted their own candidate, Wolfgang Glas, to get the job that Armando has.

 

But, even if the FIM cocked up, it still wasn't the fault of Harris and the fact remains that several others in front of him in the queue did turn it down.

I guess their point is if the FIM cock up,then the man at the top has to take some of the blame.And good that you can only answer with "even if the FIm cocked up...."

 

And i don't know Phil if anyone is saying Harris is at fault?Please point that bit out for me?

[Dave the Mic]

IF the Germans actually knew what they were talking about they would have known that Armando Castagna wasn't involved either. It is the job of the CCP Secretary in Geneva to notify federations in cases such as these.

 

Sounds like some sour grapes in there because they wanted their own candidate, Wolfgang Glas, to get the job that Armando has.

 

But, even if the FIM cocked up, it still wasn't the fault of Harris and the fact remains that several others in front of him in the queue did turn it down.

Sadly Phil, I think it's a waste of breath. Never let the facts get in the way of venting your spleen about a rider you don't like.

I guess their point is if the FIM cock up,then the man at the top has to take some of the blame.And good that you can only answer with "even if the FIm cocked up...."

 

And i don't know Phil if anyone is saying Harris is at fault?Please point that bit out for me?

Most people on here have slated Harris & also Lingren & Jonsson for that matter based on their inclusion in these meetings. There is no "fault" or blame to apportion, but many seem to think there is & the vitriol poured out on these guys is simply not necessary.

 

I am in no way having a dig at you, but I think's Phil's comment about sour grapes is probably correct.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Dave the Mic

[iris123]

Yeah, yeah. All in your opinion.

 

 

And the reason it isn't worth your answer is because your comments are offensive and you have no defence.

My posts are my opinion.Yes.What are your posts then?

 

 

As for the other bit.You don't seem to understand.I'll explain it again

 

I don't believe that riders go out and do what they do for my entertainment.Ok.Is that offensive?I think there are a number of reasons they do what they do,but none of major reasons are to entertain me.That is your opinion.All i have said is if we go by your criteria then on the occasions when i haven't been entertained then i must assume the riders have failed in their quest.That is all i have said.Nothing more,nothing less.If you try and get on your high horse because of that then.....go

 

My opinion is that the riders are doing this for themselves.I go and take the chance that i will be entertained.No one is promising me that i will be.I go of my own free will and if it turns out i have spent time and money and been bored then i only have myself to blame.And if it happens often enough,then i start to question if it is all worth the time and money.If i do decide it isn't,then i don't blame the riders for that.Somehwre along the line though someone has failed if not enough people turn up to pay the costs of a meeting

[The White Knight]

This Thread wouldn't exist if everyone had to QUALIFY!!

 

Just saying..............................................................................

[Dave the Mic]

My posts are my opinion.Yes.What are your posts then?

 

 

As for the other bit.You don't seem to understand.I'll explain it again

 

I don't believe that riders go out and do what they do for my entertainment.Ok.Is that offensive?I think there are a number of reasons they do what they do,but none of major reasons are to entertain me.That is your opinion.All i have said is if we go by your criteria then on the occasions when i haven't been entertained then i must assume the riders have failed in their quest.That is all i have said.Nothing more,nothing less.If you try and get on your high horse because of that then.....go

 

My opinion is that the riders are doing this for themselves.I go and take the chance that i will be entertained.No one is promising me that i will be.I go of my own free will and if it turns out i have spent time and money and been bored then i only have myself to blame.And if it happens often enough,then i start to question if it is all worth the time and money.If i do decide it isn't,then i don't blame the riders for that.Somehwre along the line though someone has failed if not enough people turn up to pay the costs of a meeting

Yes they are. But according to you, your opinion is absolutely correct & you couldn't possibly be wrong.

 

So, as you would say, I'll explain it again, shall I?

 

I didn't say they do what they do to entertain us. If you are going to have a pop, then get your facts straight. I simply said that they risk their necks to entertain us. If you aren't entertained, don't go & watch. Simple. In the main, the reason speedway is sometimes not entertaining has nothing to do with the riders, who in almost every case, put in 100% effort every time they go on track. Blame the track, the weather, the machinery, the promoter, but not the riders. They all compete & a bi-product of that is entertainment, even if you can't see that.

 

Your entire reasoning is based on my saying that riders only race to entertain the likes of you & I, but at no point did I say that. Nor did I say it was one of their prime reasons for racing. Not once. Only you did to serve your point.

 

None of that is offensive, not at all. But what is, is your belittling of the "old one" as you so quaintly put it, of riders being at risk every time they race. You call yourself a speedway fan, but you are happy to see these guys, some of whom are killed & seriously injured each year, slated by other so called speedway fans & then make light of the fact that I refer to it, because it assists you in trying to prove your point, because it seems so important to you to be in the right.

[racers and royals]

I am certainly not laying any blame at Armando`s door-he is a top man.However the FIM certainly need to up their act in certain areas-for several days after the delayed Danish challenge semi the media were saying that Pavlic had qualified from Lonigo.-the whole situation with qualification depending how kennett did in Holsted should have been clarified-even the FIM website were saying that Pavlic was in the Poole meeting-it was only FSP from this forum who flagged up the doubts. As for Zagar`s withdrawl i think it is important that the timescale of events is made known so the doubters can be pacified.

[iris123]

Take a look back over the posts.You are the one who take the stance that if i don't share your opinion then my opinion is offensive.

 

As i stated at the start,Harris or any rider who enters the GPs must have an aim.I'd say that aim is to qualify by right.If they don't achieve that aim then they must have failed.All the rest that came after that is pretty much small talk.I have posted that if i don't find it entertaining enough or value for money then i would,like many thousands before me,stop going.I can come to that conclusion without your help thanks lol

 

And just to clarify.I haven't suggested R&R has given any blame to Castagna.That was done by the German Federation

Edited November 1, 2013 by iris123

[racers and royals]

Take a look back over the posts.You are the one who take the stance that if i don't share your opinion then my opinion is offensive.

 

As i stated at the start,Harris or any rider who enters the GPs must have an aim.I'd say that aim is to qualify by right.If they don't achieve that aim then they must have failed.All the rest that came after that is pretty much small talk.I have posted that if i don't find it entertaining enough or value for money then i would,like many thousands before me,stop going.I can come to that conclusion without your help thanks lol

 

And just to clarify.I haven't suggested R&R has given any blame to Castagna.That was done by the German Federation

And i would like to clarify that i know you hadn`t.

[iris123]

Well that is a relief.If only everything could be that easily sorted lol

 

Just thought i'd put in the disclaimer as i have mentioned Armando a couple of times and can only think of Phil as another who has mentioned him

[Dave the Mic]

Take a look back over the posts.You are the one who take the stance that if i don't share your opinion then my opinion is offensive.

 

As i stated at the start,Harris or any rider who enters the GPs must have an aim.I'd say that aim is to qualify by right.If they don't achieve that aim then they must have failed.All the rest that came after that is pretty much small talk.I have posted that if i don't find it entertaining enough or value for money then i would,like many thousands before me,stop going.I can come to that conclusion without your help thanks lol

 

And just to clarify.I haven't suggested R&R has given any blame to Castagna.That was done by the German Federation

I have read every one. Can you please just stop manipulating my posts to suit your own end. I haven't said your opinion was offensive. Not once. It's your blatant lack of respect for these guys risking their lives that offends me.