Humphrey Appleby Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 In fact mostly it is the riders who have qualified through those relatively open qualifiers who are the worst. Yes. but it could be argued that the better of non-SGP riders don't really bother with the qualifiers as they know they'll get nominated anyway. In addition, having so few riders qualifying means it becomes more of lottery. Again, the point is not that the best riders are usually not hand-picked, but that process fundamentally lacks sporting credibility. You'd probably also have a better World Cup line-up if you hand-picked the 32 finalists rather than going through the tedium of playing qualifiers, but I don't think that would be acceptable to many. Apart from, lets see, Moto GP, Formula 1 (and most other formulas), WRC. Are they not top level F1 and MotoGP are really team sports. Although the requirements are much more stringent than they used to be, anyone ponying up enough cash can enter a team and then select the drivers/riders they want in the same way that other team sports do. This said of course, F1 drivers have be eligible for a Super Licence, which is effectively a qualification process. Not really that familiar with rallying, but can't just about anyone enter a World Championship rally if you put in an entry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 Yes. but it could be argued that the better of non-SGP riders don't really bother with the qualifiers as they know they'll get nominated anyway. In addition, having so few riders qualifying means it becomes more of lottery. Again, the point is not that the best riders are usually not hand-picked, but that process fundamentally lacks sporting credibility. You'd probably also have a better World Cup line-up if you hand-picked the 32 finalists rather than going through the tedium of playing qualifiers, but I don't think that would be acceptable to many. I'm not really sure you are right on the first point.Tbh i can't recall many top riders not trying apart from Brits like Scott who was probably sure of getting picked even if he failed to make the cut in the GPs As for the second point i thought i read a proposal from Platini to hand pick some non European countries to play in the European Championship?!?! Those well known European countries like Brazil and japan were mentioned and i doubt they would be competing in the qualifiers or was that the idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 As for the second point i thought i read a proposal from Platini to hand pick some non European countries to play in the European Championship?!?! Those well known European countries like Brazil and japan were mentioned and i doubt they would be competing in the qualifiers or was that the idea? I expect it was just another of those ideas that Platini expounded without thinking it through. It's of course more about political battles between UEFA and FIFA as the Europeans are generally sick of the corruption at FIFA, whilst Blatter is trying to shore up his political support by taking World Cup places away from Europe and giving them to other regions. I doubt this idea will come to pass because European federations will not want to give up places in the Finals. It's not like the Copa America that needs a couple of teams to make-up the numbers, and which in most cases are Latin American teams anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 I expect it was just another of those ideas that Platini expounded without thinking it through. It's of course more about political battles between UEFA and FIFA as the Europeans are generally sick of the corruption at FIFA, whilst Blatter is trying to shore up his political support by taking World Cup places away from Europe and giving them to other regions. I doubt this idea will come to pass because European federations will not want to give up places in the Finals. It's not like the Copa America that needs a couple of teams to make-up the numbers, and which in most cases are Latin American teams anyway. Yes,maybe it is just a poor idea.It is though an idea.And it shows that football isn't above poor ideas either.You used football and the world cup as an example and then talk about how corrupt FIFA is.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 And it shows that football isn't above poor ideas either.You used football and the world cup as an example and then talk about how corrupt FIFA is.......... FIFA may be corrupt, but the World Cup still has a competitive qualifying process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 FIFA may be corrupt, but the World Cup still has a competitive qualifying process. So does the GP series.Fact is,you pull someone up for using team sports and then to further your argument you yourself use a team sport example.One that is far from perfect and especially at the moment having chosen a team as host that have never qualified............So i'd say the GP series and its wildcard picks are superior to one or two of the seeds that FIFA have chosen or who EUFA might be planning on choosing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 FIFA may be corrupt, but the World Cup still has a competitive qualifying process. Aye, how good a team was 4 years ago... Niamh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 So does the GP series. I didn't say it didn't have a qualifying process, but didn't the discussion start because the qualifiers were considered the weakest riders in the line-up? And in any case it's still difficult to think of any major competition where such a high percentage of the competitors are hand-picked or otherwise shooed in. One that is far from perfect and especially at the moment having chosen a team as host that have never qualified.......... Seeding one team for local interest is hardly unreasonable practice, even if it is Qatar, and the SGP has also been guilty of including some dubious local riders as wildcards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 That is NOT the point. The point is that the current System of nominating Riders is robbing Riders who MAY have qualified for a Grand Prix place. How are riders being robbed? They know to make the GP they need to finish top 8in the series, or top 3 in the qualifieres. If they don't achieve that, then they can't feel hard done by iof they don't get a pick surely? All I want from Speedway is a level Playing Field for ALL. I DON'T SEE WHAT IS SO VERY WRONG ABOUT THAT - AND NEVER WILL!!! You are right Niamh - I don't. Places in the GP should be earned NOT given on grounds of good business, nationality, BSI Favourites or for any other reason than that they have EARNED their right to be there. If I had my way - at the end on one GP year the World Champion would be proclaimed - that would be the end of it. The following Season ALL Riders would start from scratch INCLUDING THE TOP EIGHT!! THEN WE COULD TRULY CALL SPEEDWAY A SPORT!!! TWK - is there any sport in which you believe this Utopic qualification system exists? One in which there is an equal opporunity for all regardless of nationality or ability? Really hope Laguta does accept love to watch him ride Agree 100% The United Kingdom is the only country were the Laguta brothers had these visa problems. Don't know about NZ, though, could be a similar case there, too, but since his younger brother has already done a full season of Grand Prx racing two years ago, he knows all about it. Can't see any issue with NZ VISA. IF they are the best 16 Riders in the World - they should have NO problems Qualifying then - should they? Would you say Olsen was one of the top 16 riders in 1976. Collins in 78? Mauger in 80? Gundersen in 82? Morton/Carter in 84? Carter in 85? Wigg/S Moran/Doncaster in 86? You would? But how could they possibly have failed to qualify? Ebngine troubles pah. Sugar in the fuel tank - surely soyuldn't make a difference? Broken leg, irrelavent? One bad meeting in horrific conidtions - clearly not top 16 material? Whilst there were extreme examples of a limited number of qualifying places from certain countries/regions in the past, there's no reason why a qualifying system couldn't be devised to reduce the incidences of this. Indeed the system of two Semi-Finals towards the end of the one-off World Final era ensured much better line-ups (relatively speaking) than had hitherto been the case. Nevertheless, the reality is that a field of different nationalities is needed to create interest. There were times in the 1980s when more the half the line-ups would be full of Danes, and probably the same for other nationalities at various times. It would have been quite boring... agreed re the first bit - essentially a 50/50 split beteen intercontintnetal and continental riders would work, and obviosuly earlier rounds woyuld need to ensure sufficient spots for the top nations. However, would it really be a better system than we have now. If you got rid of the wild card slots, you'd need to have a qualifying series to avoid the risk of one fall/injury/engine failiure/bad meeting ending someones chanes. And tbh, I can't see how such a series would be viable, commercially or in terms of impacts on league speedway. I think they have the method spot on, in terms of covering perforamce over the year (8 spots), opportunity for rank outside to qualify via knock outs (3 spots) and ability to ensure places fo rriders affected by injury, outstanding but missing out for othe rreasons, top young talent or ensure split of nationalities (4 spots). Note for 2014, it looks like they have given spots to three best riders over the whole season not already qualified - two of whom wsould have likely qualified bt for injury), plus one swede to maintain the split of nationalities you referred to (and ho could argue with it being given to the swedish champ?) Re spread of nationalities:Essentially thats what we have now, with a guaranteed spot for the Danes, Poles, Swedes and Brits should any not qualify, and a reluctance to have more than three riders of any nationality (unless securing spots via qualifiers) to thereby ensure a better split of representatives. Well at least the few who still follow the sport... Organisers hand-picking riders has no sporting merit whatsoever, and I don't think it happens in any serious top-level sport. There is some sort of recognised qualifying process, whether that be based on a ranking system or some sort of qualifying competition. As others have pointed out, many motosports do this, also many Olympic events. FIFA may be corrupt, but the World Cup still has a competitive qualifying process. Aye, how good a team was 4 years ago... Not really true - it's performances over a roughly 2 year period leading into the tournament. Of course, some countries have easier qualifying routes than others by virtue of coming from a eaker confederation (I don't disagree with the approach at all, but you can hardly claim it is a "fair" system). I didn't say it didn't have a qualifying process, but didn't the discussion start because the qualifiers were considered the weakest riders in the line-up? And in any case it's still difficult to think of any major competition where such a high percentage of the competitors are hand-picked or otherwise shooed in. Seeding one team for local interest is hardly unreasonable practice, even if it is Qatar, and the SGP has also been guilty of including some dubious local riders as wildcards. What about the Olympics. Doesn't each country get given a number of places, and then it is up to them how they allocate the spots (provided mimimum qualifying criteria are met). I remember the 2008 Olympcis, the best two single sculler sin the world were both Kiwis (Waddell and Drysdale), but NZ were only allowed one slot. It was down to the national body to decide how to make a selection, they ended up doing this by using the national championships as a "race off" to decide. This upset reigning champ Drysdale, who although he won and qualified said it stuffed up his preparation for the Olympics by having to "peak" too early. The SGP has dubious local riders as wildcards, as did the old World Championships (Hnery Kroeze in 87 springs to mind) - but I agree it's a neccesaity and i dont see it as an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor... Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Ebngine troubles pah. Sugar in the fuel tank - surely shouldn't make a difference? Broken leg, irrelavent? One bad meeting in horrific conidtions - clearly not top 16 material? Oddly enough as a member of the fuel team at cardiff for many many years, and perhaps because i was frankly drunk from a forum meet at the prince of wales earlier in the day, i was practically offered out by a rider and his team for perhaps not doing the most thorough job refuelling and dropping a big lump of shale in their fuel tank. A first bend crash meant i refuelled him on-track and somehow some crap got in with the fuel. The un-named rider, ahh... screw it, it was Crump, went out to race and when they came back having had a shocker they were literally wanting to fight me. Made me realise how such a trivial thing could cause such a problem. It was during the same meeting meeting that myself and one of Leigh Adams mechanics had full blown "contact" shall we say, so perhaps it says more about my alcohol intake on the day rather than anything else maybe. I blame the forum meet at the prince of wales ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 What about the Olympics. Doesn't each country get given a number of places, and then it is up to them how they allocate the spots (provided mimimum qualifying criteria are met). Whilst the Olympics limit the number of places available to each country for each event (usually between 1 and 3), I think official qualification events are run for rowing and a number of other sports. Rowing is largely a team sport anyway. Rowers can be and are replaced in Olympic teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Not really true - it's performances over a roughly 2 year period leading into the tournament. Spain qualified on 11 July 2010 Niamh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Spain qualified on 11 July 2010 Niamh really? so why are they part of the group "I" of the European qualifying rounds? just forr fun? I believe 2006 was the last world cup where reigning champs were seeded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 I believe 2006 was the last world cup where reigning champs were seeded. You could be right... football is a hateful sport Niamh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple.H. Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Couldnt Laguta and his team apply for visas before the season starts or is there a time limit on how long before that you can apply.Otherwise couldnt he tee it up at his end and maybe IMG can assist over here so a visa can be issued fairly quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted October 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 WILD cards have been decided and riders will be notified. Announcement early next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Couldnt Laguta and his team apply for visas before the season starts or is there a time limit on how long before that you can apply.Otherwise couldnt he tee it up at his end and maybe IMG can assist over here so a visa can be issued fairly quickly. It would be even better if he could return to the Latvian license which would mean that he wouldn't need a visa except for NZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LagutaRacingFan Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 It's done Grigory Laguta Andreas Jonsson Chris Holder Tomasz Gollob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Know Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Well if jonsson is in as the token swede wonder how he will do ? Oh already know, same as normal, pretty dreadful as like many others missed the boat a long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Well if jonsson is in as the token swede wonder how he will do ? Oh already know, same as normal, pretty dreadful as like many others missed the boat a long time ago. You could say the same about Gollob and if I remember it correctly Jonsson was 2nd overall in 2011. He have also managed to stay within top 8 on his own most of the times. IIRC he have only needed two wild cards before and never two years in a row. unlike the token Brit Harris (and Nicholls to some extent) so you really shouldn't say anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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