Tr Farce Of A Rule.

[Halifaxtiger]

Yawn.

Dress it up how you will, the fact remains that 'jokers and tactical rides' are absolutely ridiculous...

 

These are the sort of responses that we usually get from the anti-TR rule mob. Its wrong, its unfair, its 'ridiculous' - without a single word of justification.

 

That is the whole point - there should be NO Substitutes, Double Points or anything else. The Sport of Speedway is about Speedway RACING and NOT about concocted Results. This is why SOME Supporters at least, are leaving the Sport. THAT is also where the Sport has a big credibility problem.

 

If that's the case, why didn't have a big credibility problem in the 1970's when speedway was Britain's second most popular spectator sport ? Tactical substitutes existed then and as SCB has accurately said, they could affect a meeting more than any tactical ride does now.

 

I remember reading with disbelief a quote on here in which a person stated that a friend of his loved speedway but wouldn't go because of the tactical ride rule. I remain to this day unconvinced that that was the truth of the matter, but if it was it was truly bizarre and ridiculous. I can understand people deserting the sport for its cost, crap racing and even seeing their team carved up by the points limits but because someone gets double points ? Daft.

 

Let's just nip that in the bud shall we? Desperately? As in I've got something to prove or say? My opinion is as worthless and reprehensible as anyone else's, it's just your bad luck that I've chosen to inflict my inane drivel on this forum on this day. Who cares what I think, I just felt like typing it out because I couldn't get a decent feed for Poland. Feel free to copy and paste that into your signature and then we can all get along.

 

Correlation. Two random values. Value 1, the scoreline. Value 2, the attendance. The TR ride serves no other purpose than to close the scoreline, therefore it must be assumed the powers that be think yes. Positive correlation.

 

Again, two random values. Value 1, the scoreline, Value 2, the feeling/perception of being entertained. Evidence says some say yes, some say no. This could also be seen as the reason for the TR existence in the belief that the below is perceived as true, but can just as easily be disregarded as we have already read.

 

This time Value 1, the feeling/perception of being entertained, Value 2, the attendance. One would like to think so, but is there any true evidence that the greatest entertainment boosts your crowds in speedway? You can't do better than sending your crowd home happy. The only conclusions to be drawn here are the two are linked and we've been sending folk home scunnered to the back teeth, or it makes no odds to them. Otherwise crowds would be increasing.

 

Therefore we must conclude that the powers believe that the TR rule facilitates either increased entertainment leading to higher attendances, or that the scoreline alone is enough to generate the numbers. As we have established, the TR rule has no other purpose. Crowds are falling, the TR must be regarded as a variable in those statistics. The rulemakers believe that generating closer scorelines points to higher attendances when the current evidence is to the contrary. I have no interest in it's rights and wrongs, purely whether it can be considered a player in the downfall of our sport. There can be no other sport that wallows so serenely in it's homemade mathematical soup of defeat.

 

There, stick that on a badge...

 

If I understood half of this I would probably (I think) dispute it. I have seen some lines on this forum but 'sport that wallows so serenely in it's homemade mathematical soup of defeat' just about takes the cake.

 

The simple truth is that as Bewitcher says closer results are always more exciting to watch and not just in speedway but in any sport. Ask anyone about the best meeting they have ever seen and its almost certain to be a last heat decider - in my case, Mildenhall v Scunthorpe, NL play final 2011. In that case, the riders entered the last bend of the last race of the season with the NL championship still not decided. Breathtaking stuff.

 

Happiness is 40-38 signifies two things: your team has won and its been a close result which, in almost every case, had you on the edge of the seat. It doesn't get better than that.

 

I'm for anything that makes speedway more exciting and hence more likely to attract fans and that includes tactical rides. As soon as a rider puts on the black and white helmet, it means more emphasis is placed on that race for both sets of fans. In addition, it means that meetings are likely to be closer and I can't believe that anyone will actually suggest that that doesn't make for better entertainment.

 

Speedway's tactical ride rule is almost unique (which is why some have trouble grasping it and are critical and/or mocking) but reflects the fact that the differences in the playing area (for want of a better term) are similarly unique. I can't think of another team sport where one teams playing area is twice the size of anothers and a completely different shape and the surface is also completely different. A comparison with other sports, therefore, simply cannot be made.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Halifaxtiger

[Grachan]

not quite how it works, with a tac sub you gained an extra 2 points, 3 - 3 to a 1 - 5,

 

Yeah, and the other side lost 2 points. So a swing of 4.

 

In the same situation with a TR you would get, maybe, 6-3 at best if you were going to get a 3-3. That's a swing of 3 points.

 

Plus a TS could be used at 6 points down and as many times as you wanted to use it.

 

The TS did a lot more to producing unfair results. Despite that, though, I did prefer it as it was more tactical.

[The White Knight]

These are the sort of responses that we usually get from the anti-TR rule mob. Its wrong, its unfair, its 'ridiculous' - without a single word of justification.

 

 

 

If that's the case, why didn't have a big credibility problem in the 1970's when speedway was Britain's second most popular spectator sport ? Tactical substitutes existed then and as SCB has accurately said, they could affect a meeting more than any tactical ride does now.

 

I remember reading with disbelief a quote on here in which a person stated that a friend of his loved speedway but wouldn't go because of the tactical ride rule. I remain to this day unconvinced that that was the truth of the matter, but if it was it was truly bizarre and ridiculous. I can understand people deserting the sport for its cost, crap racing and even seeing their team carved up by the points limits but because someone gets double points ? Daft.

 

 

 

If I understood half of this I would probably (I think) dispute it. I have seen some lines on this forum but 'sport that wallows so serenely in it's homemade mathematical soup of defeat' just about takes the cake.

 

The simple truth is that as Bewitcher says closer results are always more exciting to watch and not just in speedway but in any sport. Ask anyone about the best meeting they have ever seen and its almost certain to be a last heat decider - in my case, Mildenhall v Scunthorpe, NL play final 2011. In that case, the riders entered the last bend of the last race of the season with the NL championship still not decided. Breathtaking stuff.

 

Happiness is 40-38 signifies two things: your team has won and its been a close result which, in almost every case, had you on the edge of the seat. It doesn't get better than that.

 

I'm for anything that makes speedway more exciting and hence more likely to attract fans and that includes tactical rides. As soon as a rider puts on the black and white helmet, it means more emphasis is placed on that race for both sets of fans. In addition, it means that meetings are likely to be closer and I can't believe that anyone will actually suggest that that doesn't make for better entertainment.

 

Speedway's tactical ride rule is almost unique (which is why some have trouble grasping it and are critical and/or mocking) but reflects the fact that the differences in the playing area (for want of a better term) are similarly unique. I can't think of another team sport where one teams playing area is twice the size of anothers and a completely different shape and the surface is also completely different. A comparison with other sports, therefore, simply cannot be made.

 

So am I HT.

 

Problem is that the Tactical Ride mitigates AGAINST attracting Crowds. You may say I am wrong about this - but - I know I am right from personal experience. It would be interesting to know if anyone actually started going to Speedway because of the Tactical Ride. I personally would doubt it.

 

By the way, you know where I stand at Brough Park - in our Group I can't find anyone who supports the Tactical Ride - so it isn't just me.

 

Your argument about Track shapes IS valid - but - it is the same for BOTH Teams over the Home and Away Meetings.

[BWitcher]

By the way, you know where I stand at Brough Park - in our Group I can't find anyone who supports the Tactical Ride - so it isn't just me.

 

 

I bet none of them had an issue with the tactical sub rule in years gone by.

[SCB]

The TS did a lot more to producing unfair results. Despite that, though, I did prefer it as it was more tactical.

That. I prefer the tac sub. I don't like TRs but TRs are not more unfair than TSs.

[Tsunami]

I honestly don't believe anybody walks away from speedway just because of the TR or tac sub rule.

[Trees]

Me neither, it's usually because they don't enjoy speedway enough any more to justify spending their money on it!!

 

The rest is just excuses!

 

Along with keeping the scores closer, nobody thinks the TR rule has anything to do with riders getting their fair share of rides, particularly the reserves and promoters having to pay their top men for extra starts like they had to with the old tac sub rule?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Trees

[BWitcher]

That. I prefer the tac sub. I don't like TRs but TRs are not more unfair than TSs.

 

Totally agree.

 

Me neither, it's usually because they don't enjoy speedway enough any more to justify spending their money on it!!

 

The rest is just excuses!

 

Along with keeping the scores closer, nobody thinks the TR rule has anything to do with riders getting their fair share of rides, particularly the reserves and promoters having to pay their top men for extra starts like they had to with the old tac sub rule?

 

Spot on Trees, that's why it was introduced.

[Grachan]

Me neither, it's usually because they don't enjoy speedway enough any more to justify spending their money on it!!

 

Sure, people like that are close to walking away from the sport all the time. It just takes one more stupid decision for people to say they've had enough of such nonsense and stop going.

 

I geniunely think the TR was one of the things that broke a lot of straws on a lot of camels' backs.

[moxey63]

Sure, people like that are close to walking away from the sport all the time. It just takes one more stupid decision for people to say they've had enough of such nonsense and stop going.

 

I geniunely think the TR was one of the things that broke a lot of straws on a lot of camels' backs.

 

 

It is wrong to suggest one rule change would make you walk away (or at least bother to attend live matches on the terraces), it is probably a succession of the drip-drip introduction of changes, the shifty treatment fans receive from so-called promoters who are guardians of the sport they love.

 

The time comes... when you can't answer a question about a rule that someone beside you on the terraces asks, you scratch your head and think, despite a fan of 30 years... I haven't a clue. You cannot be bothered any longer keeping up with the petty tinkering of rules that seem to be changed one week after another... or riders and keeping up with what team they actually ride for full time and are not just doubling up.

 

I also liked it best when you didn't need qualifications to work out the current league table, what team scored this there and therefore picked up this... it is too much, trying to improve the sport everywhere with little side-dishes and Best Programme Of The Year Awards. Just let us focus on the actual entertainment, the one out on the track aspect.

 

Let us go back to having a simple sport.

Edited May 20, 2013 by moxey63

[msc1874]

The Tactical Ride is basically flawed and unfair.

 

I have Posted on this subject on a number of occasions. Tactical Ride, Tactical Substitutes or whatever System you employ is GIVING an advantage to one Team over another. In my view, this is neither Sporting or Honest.

 

In my humble opinion, if there were NO advantages given Speedway would be much better off. You MIGHT get the odd 75-15 Result - but either of these Systems would be of use in that situation. I would settle for watching Teams win by a big margin, that is the Sport, that is the nature of Sport. If my Team takes a hiding, it means they are not good enough, so be it. THAT IS SPORT. Speedway has a credibility problem - Double Points does not help with this.

 

In League Speedway SPORT is about Competition between TEAMS, it is NOT about GIFTING advantages to one Team or the other. People wonder why Supporters are leaving the Sport. ONE of the reasons, I KNOW, is the use of the Tactical Ride giving unfair advantage to the opposition.

 

I know too that those who support the System say that it results in closer Meetings, this is true - BUT CRUCIALLY - it is a CONTRIVED closeness. Actually, it is basically dishonest - it means that in some cases the WORST Team on the day wins.

 

I would suggest that THAT is a big CREDIBILITY problem.

 

Thank goodness somebody on here understands my point.

 

Getting called a "sad sack" or being told "complain about lay down engines" or complain when your team loses etc sums up the mentality of some on here. Are we all meant to nod and agree? To personally attack people for having a differing opinion to your own is pathetic.

 

I go to speedway to watch racing. Love it if mg team win, but if they don't enjoy visiting new tracks and see good racing. Every team benefits and loses from the rule at some point but for me I still don't like or agree with it.

 

The tactical sub rule was not without it's flaws either, but for me 4 riders starting from the same point and ones points count double. Fundamentally it is crazy. I get the notion that it is designed to keep matches closer but, best team on the day should win. I don't nor will I ever buy into tribalism within speedway. I can see beyond my own team, I find it very insulting some on here accuse me of this why because I raise a point.

 

This is a forum for debate but those who name call, are you actually adults capable of accepting somebody else's differing viewpoint. Honestly..

 

Realistically the rule changes will never drive me away from the sport.

 

However, new people who attend and I have introduced friends to it turn around and will say that's a bit strange. I just do not accept a system that is engineered to keep scores close. 4 guys line up at the gate all should have the chance to score the same points. One who can score double is ludicrous.

 

Will it drive people away? I am not sure i buy into that argument yet, but I guess it could. Conversely new people to the sport if they have known nothing else will maybe just accept it as they have not known the rules to be any different in their experience of the sport.

 

But for me for what it's worth, u will never accept that this rule. Is good, just or fair.

[Halifaxtiger]

 

I bet none of them had an issue with the tactical sub rule in years gone by.

 

Quite.

 

That. I prefer the tac sub. I don't like TRs but TRs are not more unfair than TSs.

 

I don't have leanings either way. The one thing that TR's have in their favour is that as far as I am aware riders do not get paid extra for undertaking them. TS's would mean that they did.

 

To put it into perspective, all riders earn £40 per point except the top two who earn £60. Double tactical in heat 8 5-1 for instead of 5-1 against. One costs £360, the other £40.

 

That's a cost to a promoter of £320 for one race..........

 

I honestly don't believe anybody walks away from speedway just because of the TR or tac sub rule.

 

Neither do I. But I have heard tales that that is the case (from those who are against it that is).

 

 

 

It is wrong to suggest one rule change would make you walk away (or at least bother to attend live matches on the terraces), it is probably a succession of the drip-drip introduction of changes, the shifty treatment fans receive from so-called promoters who are guardians of the sport they love.

 

The time comes... when you can't answer a question about a rule that someone beside you on the terraces asks, you scratch your head and think, despite a fan of 30 years... I haven't a clue. You cannot be bothered any longer keeping up with the petty tinkering of rules that seem to be changed one week after another... or riders and keeping up with what team they actually ride for full time and are not just doubling up.

 

I also liked it best when you didn't need qualifications to work out the current league table, what team scored this there and therefore picked up this... it is too much, trying to improve the sport everywhere with little side-dishes and Best Programme Of The Year Awards. Just let us focus on the actual entertainment, the one out on the track aspect.

 

Let us go back to having a simple sport.

 

On your first point, I would definitely agree. I was only hearing a tale on Thursday about a truly passionate fan who was subject to unnecessary abuse by a promoter. (he's contributed on this thread).

 

When the points system came in, I thought it was daft. Now I actually think it was a very good move indeed.

 

 

 

So am I HT.

 

Problem is that the Tactical Ride mitigates AGAINST attracting Crowds. You may say I am wrong about this - but - I know I am right from personal experience. It would be interesting to know if anyone actually started going to Speedway because of the Tactical Ride. I personally would doubt it.

 

By the way, you know where I stand at Brough Park - in our Group I can't find anyone who supports the Tactical Ride - so it isn't just me.

 

Your argument about Track shapes IS valid - but - it is the same for BOTH Teams over the Home and Away Meetings.

 

I am fully aware that a lot of people don't like it but I just have trouble working out why. At least you are one of those who are against all forms of tactical changes - which, in my experience, is unusual - because those who rail against it but support tactical substitutes on the basis that they are fairer simply don't know what they are talking about, as SCB has shown.

 

I doubt if anyone has come in - or left - the sport because of tactical rides. In both cases, they'd be daft if you ask me.

 

But people will come to the sport if it is more exciting and tactical rides do two things to make that more likely. First, there's the additional emphasis on the race. Second, they keep scores closer.

 

I doubt if there is a single person here that hasn't seen a dead meeting brought back to life by a tactical change. Do we want dead meetings or live ones ?

Edited May 20, 2013 by Halifaxtiger

[Blazeaway]

I honestly don't believe anybody walks away from speedway just because of the TR or tac sub rule.

 

This must be true because we agree!

[BWitcher]

Thank goodness somebody on here understands my point.

 

Getting called a "sad sack" or being told "complain about lay down engines" or complain when your team loses etc sums up the mentality of some on here. Are we all meant to nod and agree? To personally attack people for having a differing opinion to your own is pathetic.

 

This is a forum for debate but those who name call, are you actually adults capable of accepting somebody else's differing viewpoint. Honestly..

 

 

The only person who hasn't understood throughout this entire thread is yourself. Nobody has argued against your right to an opinion. What was pointed out was your opening post was wrong. You claimed the old Tac Sub system was fairer. That is wrong.

 

 

I doubt if there is a single person here that hasn't seen a dead meeting brought back to life by a tactical change. Do we want dead meetings or live ones ?

 

Absolutely spot on.

 

A winning tac ride can inspire the rest of the team and make them think they have a chance of gaining something from the meeting. There will have been many, many exciting meetings that were kept alive by the Tac rides that would otherwise have seen one team roll over and meekly accept defeat.. hardly good from an 'entertainment' point of view. I'm not referring to the score here either, teams will naturally put more effort in if they believe there is something to race for.

[Trees]

I go to speedway to watch racing

Me too and the quality of this (too many processions) is the one thing that drives people away from speedway, the authorities need to concentrate on how to produce better racing, that's all imo ..............

[BWitcher]

Me too and the quality of this (too many processions) is the one thing that drives people away from speedway, the authorities need to concentrate on how to produce better racing, that's all imo ..............

 

This has always been the case however...

 

In addition,do tracks that are renowned for 'exciting racing' get bigger crowds than those that aren't? Not from what I have seen...

 

Of course we all want to see exciting racing, but it doesn't appear that is what pulls the crowds in. Look at F1.. you can have a 90 min borefest in terms of exciting racing, doesn't effect it though.

Edited May 20, 2013 by BWitcher

[msc1874]

 

 

The only person who hasn't understood throughout this entire thread is yourself. Nobody has argued against your right to an opinion. What was pointed out was your opening post was wrong. You claimed the old Tac Sub system was fairer. That is wrong.

 

 

 

Absolutely spot on.

 

A winning tac ride can inspire the rest of the team and make them think they have a chance of gaining something from the meeting. There will have been many, many exciting meetings that were kept alive by the Tac rides that would otherwise have seen one team roll over and meekly accept defeat.. hardly good from an 'entertainment' point of view. I'm not referring to the score here either, teams will naturally put more effort in if they believe there is something to race for.

 

Bzzzzzz you are getting boring now.

[BWitcher]

Bzzzzzz you are getting boring now.

 

Intelligent adults accept when they get something wrong and they are corrected. It's becoming apparent you don't fall into that camp.

[Trees]

This has always been the case however...

 

In addition,do tracks that are renowned for 'exciting racing' get bigger crowds than those that aren't? Not from what I have seen...

 

Of course we all want to see exciting racing, but it doesn't appear that is what pulls the crowds in. Look at F1.. you can have a 90 min borefest in terms of exciting racing, doesn't effect it though.

If you read what Shovlar says yeah!! I'm pretty sure that if we got 10 out of 15 exciting, passing galore between 4 rider races the crowds would go up cos people would be waxing lyrical over their night out to everyone!!

[moxey63]

Having thought about it, perhaps my belief that the Tac Sub rule was a lot better than the current Golden Double is only because it's what I was introduced, educated and had got so damn used to. I don't like the Golden Double rule but, to a newcomer, I suppose both seem strange. It's like a cover song of a famous classic is never the same, just can't get used to it. Band Aid's first Christmas tune in 1984 will never be bettered, in my view, though a few occasions there have been attempts. Possibly being too set in my ways, I can't get used to the Golden Double and will always prefer TS... neither have I ever forgiven the so-called promoters... ditching the 13 heat format all those years ago.

As one post states, perhaps best thing is to have no tactical changes. Then again, if the racing's boring, the scores are wider than a cheshire cat's grin... what else is there?

Edited May 20, 2013 by moxey63