Belle Vue Aces Vs Poole Pirates 29/4/2013

[SteveLyric2]

LOL

 

Apologies to Rohan Tungate. A whistle stop trip to Amsterdam yesterday for the footy appears to have lead to me getting him completely mixed up with Ryan Tunnicliffe, who plays for Manchester United and then using a made up name.

 

Sorry Rohan, I am a '....' insert appropriate label of choice...

 

I'm not defending BV and I'm not saying Wolves were wrong to say they didn't want to ride the track on Good Friday 2012. My understanding was that the BV riders were willing to give it a go in front of a bumper crowd and understandably Wolves weren't keen. The track had been over watered late to keep the dust down and it didn't dry as quickly as expected.

 

I'm not saying Poole were wrong to be annoyed that their meeting at BV was cancelled in circumstances they thought were dubious. Especially after they had been fined for a rider missing a flight and them tracking an under strength side.

 

The referee the SCB sent hasn't refereed many, if any Elite League matches at BV and is therefore less familiar with recent local 'local' issues like the drive off the 2nd bend catching riders out. I know him quite well but haven't seen him at BV for a year or so. The track's been relayed since he did his SCB referee training their a few years ago. He's a good bloke and I like him.

 

I think Tony Swales resigned because he was upset by the circumstances of the Good Friday cancellation and it wasn't worth the further upset for him to carry on. He's a very nice bloke. I may have got that wrong, the bit about him resigning, not about him being a nice bloke.

 

Noddy and 'Rohan' Tweeted photos taken from the opposite end of the BV track to to where the stated problem was. That's a fact.

 

Why didn't they just take photos of the 2nd bend from the pits gate and say we've had it worse than that when we've been before?

 

That's a serious question, that deserves consideration. They took photos from a vantage point that didn't show the 2nd bend. It took them 5 minutes to walk there and 5 minutes to walk back. Why bother when the 2nd bend is right next to the pit gate?

 

Given recent complaints about the BV track if the water pipe leak was genuine, which the BV Tweeted pics showed at the time, it's not surprising BV didn't look a gift horse in the mouth if they had other problems. The fact remains the visiting team had previously complained about the track at BV being of a poor standard, so if there was a problem with the track it makes sense to cancel and re-stage the meeting.

 

If Poole hadn't requested an investigation then there wouldn't be a problem.

 

Chinese whispers soon turns a leaking pipe in to a burst water main.

 

As for riders missing flights I don't know. Matej Zagar eventually ended up in a Manchester Airport hotel at about 21:00 according to his Twitter feed.

 

Based on Poole's response I doubt they'd have voluntarily agreed to postpone the meeting under the circumstances. Until BV's points were deducted yesterday they were ahead of Poole having had 3 matches less.

 

The Elite League table will show BV have been deducted 3 points for the entire season. That's not great PR when they're trying to get a new stadium built. The SCB said they didn't want to give other teams an advantage but did exactly that by giving BV a points deduction that is highlighted on the Elite League table with an asterisk to brand the aces for their shame.

 

The SCB is rarely open about it's decision making process and there are lots of strange goings on behind the scenes, as there are with other sports and businesses.

 

I don't think any members of the FA board have an interest in any football clubs though. CVS and Alex Harkess do, as far as I'm aware and they're also on the SCB board, as far as I'm aware.

 

If a problem with the track on the starting gate at Poole caused a meeting to be postponed, posting a picture on Twitter of the back straight saying the track's fine wouldn't be helpful, so why do it?

 

Perhaps because you have your own agenda.

 

It was a sunny day at BV which clouded over a little later but even close up pictures of the second bend wouldn't show how soft the track was if there was a localised problem from a water leak and the top surface layer dried. So, the SCB's decision is based on the testimony of the attending local referee, evidence in the form of any pictures he took and the BV management's statements to the enquiry. Also perhaps statements from any Poole officials if they lodged a complain which they must have done to trigger an SCB enquiry.

 

I've stood on the 2nd bend at BV when it's been bone dry and the 3rd bend has been spongy on the way in because the water table at that end is lower. There are stand pipe connections at BV often used by John Perrin for watering with a hose pipe, as he preferred that to a water bowser. If one of those leaked under pressure it could easily give you a local flood, that affected only a small area of the track, so BV may have been telling the truth.

 

I haven't asked because I'm not involved at BV any more, which is why I felt able to post on the forum for the first time in a long time.

 

Nothing much has changed, apart from BV being on the cusp of a shovel ready new stadium project.

 

It might be another example of some clubs being more equal than others in terms of influence with the SCB, then again BV may have been stupid enough to risk 6 years of hard work, a £10 million stadium development and their hard earned reputation with the local council and New East Manchester Ltd (the local area development company) for 3 Elite League points.

 

I guess anything is possible... it is speedway after all.

 

Here's hoping they all live happily ever after.

 

Fingers Crossed.

Skyjack, What about the other , admittedly anecdotal, evidence from the Poole fans who had booked the hotel opposite?! The stadium security guy who 'couldn't understand why it was called off - everything was fine and going ahead until about 3.15 when we got told it was off!'? As for some clubs being 'more equal than others', if the inference is against Poole, why were they and the rider fined against Eastbourne when Magic was missing? ps. I'm sending this from the outskirts of Manchester (not) so could easily argue face to face!! (not)

Edited May 16, 2013 by Skidder1

[Skyjack2]

Skyjack, give it a rest. You are simply heaping further embarassment onto the club.

 

The referee sent there was qualified. Your attempts to slander him are out of place and ill considered. Why not use your journalistic skills to go ask the Belle Vue promoters some hard questions.. such as was there a water pipe leak or not?

 

Do you seriously think a 'tweet' from Zagar is evidence that he was in the country? I can go tweet now that I am relaxing on a beach in Australia, or that I'm on the moon, or sailing around the world.. means absolutely nothing.

 

It's up to you what you think.

 

The Tweets from the Poole riders were enough to raise questions and an SCB enquiry was triggered and a hearing was held, as a result of either tweeted pictures, or an official complaint from Poole.

 

I'll ask again. Why go to the opposite end of the stadium to take photographs of the track? I think someone should perhaps ask Chris and Rohan that question.

 

You keep avoiding that fact!?

 

I haven't slandered the referee sent to inspect the track. I know him and I don't think taking pictures approximately 3 hours later gives an indication of what BV faced at the time they published a picture of surface water on the 2nd bend shortly after 3pm.

 

BV said that there was a water leak at the time they published a picture on Twitter.

 

Are you suggesting Zagar deliberately tweeted that he was in a Manchester hotel room when he wasn't?

 

Now who's getting in to slander territory? Why would he tweet that he was in Manchester if he wasn't?

 

I don't know the truth, I was sharing my thoughts on here, as I've done in the past.

 

I've done 10 years reporting on BV. I've done my bit for Elite League speedway. In the past I've known the facts about stories that would've made disappointing reading if published. So the facts weren't published because that's the way the status quo was maintained.

 

I'm entitled to my informed opinion and I think this one is as fishy as the rule that said Jason Lyons' average was too high for BV to have Ricky Ashworth doubling up in 2006, even though that rule didn't exist and was later added to the rule book.

 

There was also the 2004 episode where Rory Schlein was told by the speedway 'authorities' that he couldn't continue to double up for BV and ride in the world under 21 champs. "You can't have two bites of the cherry son." He could and he did but for a few days he was very upset at the thought of having to choose one or the other.

 

I don't know if BV cheated but I do know that two Poole riders posted pictures on twitter taken 200 metres away from the point on the 2nd bend, that BV had tweeted a picture of, showing surface water and claiming there was a water leak.

 

One of those pictures from a Poole rider triggered a story in the Manchester local media. I believe those tweeted pictures brought the sport into disrepute.

 

As to which one, it's hard to know. Who's going to tell the truth about why they took their twitter pics?

 

Either, BV faked a water leak on a sunny day to get a meeting called off and the Poole riders took a picture of a different part of the track at the other end of the stadium in error.

 

Or, BV had a genuine water leak on a sunny day and the Poole riders took a picture of a different part of the track at the other end of the stadium in error.

 

Or, BV faked a water leak on a sunny day to get a meeting called off and the Poole riders took a picture of a different part of the track at the other end of the stadium to get the circumstances investigated.

 

Or, BV had a genuine water leak on a sunny day and the Poole riders took a picture of a different part of the track at the other end of the stadium to get the circumstances investigated.

 

I think that covers it...

 

 

If you don't agree that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

 

I suggest we agree to disagree, or this could get boring.

[Pirate Nick]

You ask why Zagar would tweet that he's in Manchester, when he allegedly wasn't?

 

Well, I can think of 5000 reasons

[BluPanther]

It's up to you what you think.

 

The Tweets from the Poole riders were enough to raise questions and an SCB enquiry was triggered and a hearing was held, as a result of either tweeted pictures, or an official complaint from Poole.

 

I'll ask again. Why go to the opposite end of the stadium to take photographs of the track? I think someone should perhaps ask Chris and Rohan that question.

 

You keep avoiding that fact!?

 

I haven't slandered the referee sent to inspect the track. I know him and I don't think taking pictures approximately 3 hours later gives an indication of what BV faced at the time they published a picture of surface water on the 2nd bend shortly after 3pm.

 

BV said that there was a water leak at the time they published a picture on Twitter.

 

Are you suggesting Zagar deliberately tweeted that he was in a Manchester hotel room when he wasn't?

 

Now who's getting in to slander territory? Why would he tweet that he was in Manchester if he wasn't?

 

I don't know the truth, I was sharing my thoughts on here, as I've done in the past.

 

I've done 10 years reporting on BV. I've done my bit for Elite League speedway. In the past I've known the facts about stories that would've made disappointing reading if published. So the facts weren't published because that's the way the status quo was maintained.

 

I'm entitled to my informed opinion and I think this one is as fishy as the rule that said Jason Lyons' average was too high for BV to have Ricky Ashworth doubling up in 2006, even though that rule didn't exist and was later added to the rule book.

 

There was also the 2004 episode where Rory Schlein was told by the speedway 'authorities' that he couldn't continue to double up for BV and ride in the world under 21 champs. "You can't have two bites of the cherry son." He could and he did but for a few days he was very upset at the thought of having to choose one or the other.

 

I don't know if BV cheated but I do know that two Poole riders posted pictures on twitter taken 200 metres away from the point on the 2nd bend, that BV had tweeted a picture of, showing surface water and claiming there was a water leak.

 

One of those pictures from a Poole rider triggered a story in the Manchester local media. I believe those tweeted pictures brought the sport into disrepute.

 

As to which one, it's hard to know. Who's going to tell the truth about why they took their twitter pics?

 

Either, BV faked a water leak on a sunny day to get a meeting called off and the Poole riders took a picture of a different part of the track at the other end of the stadium in error.

 

Or, BV had a genuine water leak on a sunny day and the Poole riders took a picture of a different part of the track at the other end of the stadium in error.

 

Or, BV faked a water leak on a sunny day to get a meeting called off and the Poole riders took a picture of a different part of the track at the other end of the stadium to get the circumstances investigated.

 

Or, BV had a genuine water leak on a sunny day and the Poole riders took a picture of a different part of the track at the other end of the stadium to get the circumstances investigated.

 

I think that covers it...

 

 

If you don't agree that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

 

I suggest we agree to disagree, or this could get boring.

COULD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think you mean IS.

[speedwaysliders]

Cant beleive the press releases dont make 100% clear exactly what happened,its not asking too much to get clear facts of the situation.ie

 

1-Which person of the belle vue management team was at the track and made the call.

2-Were the GRA owners of the stadium informed of the water leak asap,to get an engineer or the water board there as i think it was 3pm when the meeting was called off,BUT WHEN was the water leak found?

3- Reports say Zagar was at the Radison but they have hotels all over the world so exactly where was he and Zorro,its not rocket science to find out where they were.

4-If the match went ahead what team did Belle Vue declare to race on track that evening?

5-Who was the referee who never arrived,but would have taken control of the meeting?Surely he has a story to tell what the BV management told him so he was clear the meeting was off.Surely he just cant say"ok pal fair enough" and not even bother of looking in to getting the meeting on.

ALL THESE FACTS ARE STILL TO BE 100% CONFIRMED-Why cant someone just give us a straight answer?

[hyderd]

B Vue have been found guilty of calling off a meeting that could and should of been ran. To impose a fine is the right thing to do as is done in other sports, but to deduct 3 pts and say that NO OTHER CLUB SHOULD BENEFIT is hypocritical as all other clubs will clearly benefit.

 

So be warned as the next time a team ride with a rider who shouldn't of been in the side, not only will his points be taken off and the score readjusted, but 3 pts will also be deducted so as not to benefit other teams.

 

Only in speedway.

[BWitcher]

Cant beleive the press releases dont make 100% clear exactly what happened,its not asking too much to get clear facts of the situation.ie

 

1-Which person of the belle vue management team was at the track and made the call.

2-Were the GRA owners of the stadium informed of the water leak asap,to get an engineer or the water board there as i think it was 3pm when the meeting was called off,BUT WHEN was the water leak found?

3- Reports say Zagar was at the Radison but they have hotels all over the world so exactly where was he and Zorro,its not rocket science to find out where they were.

4-If the match went ahead what team did Belle Vue declare to race on track that evening?

5-Who was the referee who never arrived,but would have taken control of the meeting?Surely he has a story to tell what the BV management told him so he was clear the meeting was off.Surely he just cant say"ok pal fair enough" and not even bother of looking in to getting the meeting on.

ALL THESE FACTS ARE STILL TO BE 100% CONFIRMED-Why cant someone just give us a straight answer?

 

Why do they need confirming?

 

There has been a hearing, the SCB has reviewed all the evidence available and Belle vue have been found guilty and punished accordingly.

 

B Vue have been found guilty of calling off a meeting that could and should of been ran. To impose a fine is the right thing to do as is done in other sports, but to deduct 3 pts and say that NO OTHER CLUB SHOULD BENEFIT is hypocritical as all other clubs will clearly benefit.

 

So be warned as the next time a team ride with a rider who shouldn't of been in the side, not only will his points be taken off and the score readjusted, but 3 pts will also be deducted so as not to benefit other teams.

 

Only in speedway.

 

Yes, only in speedway.

 

In any other sport the punishment would have been far harsher.

[david2905]

Maybe they want to appeal against the sentence rather than the verdict.

 

If they don't like the harsh setence, then don't do it again, had they got something pathetic it would of opened the floodgates for other clubs taking the piss with dodgy reasons for postponements.

[Skyjack2]

Skyjack, What about the other , admittedly anecdotal, evidence from the Poole fans who had booked the hotel opposite?! The stadium security guy who 'couldn't understand why it was called off - everything was fine and going ahead until about 3.15 when we got told it was off!'? As for some clubs being 'more equal than others', if the inference is against Poole, why were they and the rider fined against Eastbourne when Magic was missing? ps. I'm sending this from the outskirts of Manchester (not) so could easily argue face to face!! (not)

 

The stadium security work for the stadium in the public areas of the stadium. They don't go on the dog track, never mind the speedway track.

 

You're absolutely right about Magic. I think that is exactly why Poole complained to the SCB and why pictures of the BV track were posted on Twitter to back up that complaint.

 

I think pictures of parts of the track that were apparently fine raised understandable questions about a report of a cancellation due to a water logged track.

 

I think BV were fined based on a protest from Poole and the SCB finding was that the meeting could have gone ahead. BV had to make a damage limitation call at shortly after 3:15pm and do what they thought was best. You can't know for sure how fast the track will dry out as we saw on Good Friday 2012.

 

Whether the real reason for the cancellation was that riders were stuck/delayed in Poland, rather than a genuine concern over the track, well I guess only a select few will know for sure and won't be able to acknowledge that publicly either way.

[Nellie]

Snip

Why are you persisting in muddying the waters? What relevance does what the Poole riders were tweeting have to anything? Why the SCB sent someone to inspect, is of no consequence unless it was frivolous and there was no case to answer (it wasn't though, was it). The SCB asked a referee to attend and, what he discovered and presumably documented, resulted in Belle Vue being fined and docked points. Only those present at the SCB meeting will know any other facts such as riders whereabouts and whether anyone turned up to fix the burst main.

 

but to deduct 3 pts and say that NO OTHER CLUB SHOULD BENEFIT is hypocritical as all other clubs will clearly benefit.

I had assumed this referred to Poole being awarded four points from the meeting, which they decided was unfair on the other clubs in the league. Of course the other clubs are supposed to benefit equally or it wouldn't be a punishment, would it.

[bigcatdiary]

Because this is the BSPA & SCB, they don't do straight answers.

 

They just tell you what they want you to know and they certainly don't want this horrible little PR disaster made fully public.

 

I rather liked Graham Reeve,s explanation in the Star today why they (the SCB) had gone down a certain route when declining to award the match 75-0 to Poole.

 

"If we did that, it could be financially worthwhile for an away promoter to get the home promoter to rain off a meeting off fictitiously in the future, knowing that the away promoter could give a backhander to pay any fees"

 

Doesn't say much for Reeve,s opinion of members of the BSPA does it, not that I am saying he is wrong to believe that.

[Skyjack2]

Why are you persisting in muddying the waters? What relevance does what the Poole riders were tweeting have to anything? Why the SCB sent someone to inspect, is of no consequence unless it was frivolous and there was no case to answer (it wasn't though, was it). The SCB asked a referee to attend and, what he discovered and presumably documented, resulted in Belle Vue being fined and docked points. Only those present at the SCB meeting will know any other facts such as riders whereabouts and whether anyone turned up to fix the burst main.

 

 

I had assumed this referred to Poole being awarded four points from the meeting, which they decided was unfair on the other clubs in the league. Of course the other clubs are supposed to benefit equally or it wouldn't be a punishment, would it.

 

Maybe the Poole riders tweeting pictures of the wrong part of the track muddied the waters and forced the SCB to take action?

[Nellie]

Maybe the Poole riders tweeting pictures of the wrong part of the track muddied the waters and forced the SCB to take action?

You're making an issue out of something beside the point. The crux is BV were found guilty and punished, presumably for just cause. Why the SCB sent the referee to document the evidence is just you muddying the waters.

[Steve0]

 

 

Maybe the Poole riders tweeting pictures of the wrong part of the track muddied the waters and forced the SCB to take action?

 

There are none so blind as those that will not see...

[oldace]

Slander??

 

Skyjack hasn't slandered anybody.

 

What is much closer to slander is implying someone has lied about his location when that location is relevant, or a much better example would be accusing someone of fabricating a story to protect his business interests and also accusing him of overcharging and implying price fixing.

 

I know both are ridiculous examples, no intelligent person would even think something as moronic never mind actually posting it, but I hope it helps you understand the gist what slander actually means.

 

You never know, it might stop you from making such a gormless mistake yourself lol!

 

Well no you have confused me, I always thought slander was spoken and libel written. Thank god I didnt go into a full explanation when I didn't understand myself. It would have been a gormless mistake wouldn't it. To be fair though you do gormless very well

Edited May 16, 2013 by Oldace

[Rob Lee]

Re Skyjack's post 625:

 

"Graham may run the SCB on a day to day basis .....To cheat at this stage would be utter

madness!........etc etc....."

 

Skyjack seems to be saying that BV are innocent of the charges. I think the clue to the truth is in the SCB statement:

 

The findings of this enquiry and subsequently (sic) admission by the Belle Vue Promotion led to a Disciplinary Hearing being held yesterday at the offices of the Auto Cycle Union in Rugby.

 

I think it says that BV admitted what they'd done. Any need to waste any more pages of the forum arguing their innocence or otherwise??

[Kester]

Ha ha ha ha ha

 

Do keep up old boy, things have moved on a bit.

 

Just incase you hadn't noticed this is the Internet, a newfangled thing that oldies or silver surfers are getting to grips with, some better than others.

 

Here is an link to help you.......

 

http://www.contactla...e-internet.html

 

If you are lucky you may be able to what is called click on the link. If you're not lucky you will have to do something called cut and paste.

 

If you need any help don't hesitate to ask.

 

What your answer has to do with Oldace's post is beyond me. I take it you ran out of poor arguments.

 

Actually, now I see, I was being thick.

 

However, what I don't see is why you're prattling on.

 

Your club have been found out for cheating. The evidence must have been damning as usually the SCB are useless. Aces51 showed how you maybe should have posted a few pages back.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Kester

[Skyjack2]

You're making an issue out of something beside the point. The crux is BV were found guilty and punished, presumably for just cause. Why the SCB sent the referee to document the evidence is just you muddying the waters.

 

Why was the referee sent? Because members of the SCB saw pictures pictures that suggested the track was fine. Why not take accurate pictures of the part of the track that's causing the problem and ask the SCB to send someone.

 

The pictures posted on twitter by Poole riders were a deliberate misrepresentation of the state of the BV track. They deliberately didn't show the problematic part of the track that lead to the cancellation and these pictures also lead to an inaccurate article in the local press, in turn bringing the sport in to disrepute.

 

So if BV are fined £5k, for what we don't know exactly but they've been found guilty and Poole were fined £1k for no Magic, then surely posting inflammatory pictures is equally sanction-able!?

[Kester]

Why was the referee sent? Because members of the SCB saw pictures pictures that suggested the track was fine. Why not take accurate pictures of the part of the track that's causing the problem and ask the SCB to send someone.

 

The pictures posted on twitter by Poole riders were a deliberate misrepresentation of the state of the BV track. They deliberately didn't show the problematic part of the track that lead to the cancellation and these pictures also lead to an inaccurate article in the local press, in turn bringing the sport in to disrepute.

 

So if BV are fined £5k, for what we don't know exactly but they've been found guilty and Poole were fined £1k for no Magic, then surely posting inflammatory pictures is equally sanction-able!?

 

But clearly all the evidence presented to the SCB has demonstrated that Belle Vue pulled a fast one and have been caught. How the suspicion came about is irrelevant, why you keep going on about tweets is beyond me. The only disrepute being heaped on the sport has resulted from Belle Vue's misguided actions.

[Steve0]

Why is this still being debated? - they pleaded guilty for god sake! They got off lightly IMHO - time to move on now...