Belle Vues National Speedway Stadium

[Tsunami]

 

 

Someone with a little inside knowledge but no axe to grind or journalist who has been speaking to vested interest promoter who has bit of more than he can chew?

 

...or a rubbish stirrer. You decide.

[oldace]

 

...or a rubbish stirrer. You decide.

 

DAC has been quite vociferous in his support of the Aces promotion in the past, usually jumping to their defence in debates like this so what possible grounds would he have to want to "sh!t stir".

[SCB]

 

...or a rubbish stirrer. You decide.

I dont think I've ever read DAC being anything but positive and supportive of BV speedway in the past.

[Alan_Jones]

Expect a press release tomorrow. Whenever this thread gets dragged out a press release always miraculously apears.

 

Don't be silly, you're exaggerating.

 

Oh, hang on a minute...

 

http://www.speedwaygb.co/news.php?extend.23889

[Dave Jones]

Expect a press release tomorrow. Whenever this thread gets dragged out a press release always miraculously apears.

Tell us the truth now You had inside info

[pugwash]

 

Don't be silly, you're exaggerating.

 

Oh, hang on a minute...

 

http://www.speedwaygb.co/news.php?extend.23889

Expect a return of 'The Bobs' at the new stadium?

[ABS]

Would love to know Mort's definition of "just ahead of". It implies a degree of immediacy, but the history of this project would suggest otherwise.

[Tsunami]

 

DAC has been quite vociferous in his support of the Aces promotion in the past, usually jumping to their defence in debates like this so what possible grounds would he have to want to "sh!t stir".

 

 

I dont think I've ever read DAC being anything but positive and supportive of BV speedway in the past.

 

Where did I say that the 'rubbish stirrer' comment referred to DAC.

[oldace]

 

 

 

Where did I say that the 'rubbish stirrer' comment referred to DAC.

 

You quoted a post that related to either DAC or Phillip Rising. Are we to assume it is Phil Rising who is the sh!t stirrer or can we assume you are backtracking knowing DACs previous history of unflinching support.

 

Either that or you are now quoting random posts with no link to your point

[Tsunami]

Nail head hit?

 

I had a chance meeting with someone involved on the other side of this a couple of years ago and all was going slowly but very smoothly. I've kept in touch and from what I have been told in the last week or so the hold up is on the developers side not the planners side.

 

I don't know what the hold up is but the cost of the project will be considerably more now than it was five years ago.

 

 

 

 

Someone with a little inside knowledge but no axe to grind or journalist who has been speaking to vested interest promoter who has bit of more than he can chew?

 

 

 

...or a rubbish stirrer. You decide.

 

 

 

 

 

Where did I say that the 'rubbish stirrer' comment referred to DAC.

 

 

 

You quoted a post that related to either DAC or Phillip Rising. Are we to assume it is Phil Rising who is the sh!t stirrer or can we assume you are backtracking knowing DACs previous history of unflinching support.

 

Either that or you are now quoting random posts with no link to your point

 

Where, all in your own little mind.

 

Do try to keep up before you misfire again. My comment was to introduce the possibility of a possible 'rubbish stirrer' as opposed to the two possibilities suggested by SCB. No mention made or meant to DAC, just more missinterpretation from you and SCB.

You must be desperate trying to get another fight again. Sad.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Tsunami

[pandorum]

The engraving of the bricks must be expensive as your average brick retails at about 35/40 pence if bought in baulk. The Belle Vue bricks retail at £49

Yes but these are not just 'bricks' these are Marks & Spencer bricks!

[Phil The Ace]

I don't think basketball not getting anymore lottery grants ain't helped.

 

It was always going to take time. Especially with there being so many sports etc being involved.

 

For me another problem as been David Gordon being to eager. He always jumps the gun. So if Gordon says 6 months. In reality it's 1 year.

 

Don't forget this is new to David Gordon etc so possibly wouldn't know how big and long project this would be.

 

They say no news is good news. But it's only good news when no news as been weeks/months. Not years

[oldace]

Looks like Kirky Lane,s days are numbered

 

http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/archive/15505-belle-vue-greyhound-stadium-sold.html

[maneacat]

Looks like Kirky Lane,s days are numbered

 

http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/archive/15505-belle-vue-greyhound-stadium-sold.html

 

Sad that they only mention greyhounds and stock cars but NOT speedway - suppose no one should be surprised really with all the problems in our sport these days.

[SCB]

Can just see it, they build a new National Speedway Stadium. Then build executive flats on the old stadium. The new residents of the executive flats complain about the noise.....

[manchesterpaul]

Can just see it, they build a new National Speedway Stadium. Then build executive flats on the old stadium. The new residents of the executive flats complain about the noise.....

 

Lol but ouch many a true word spoken in jest!

Edited March 26, 2014 by manchesterpaul

[arthur cross]

Looks like Kirky Lane,s days are numbered

 

http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/archive/15505-belle-vue-greyhound-stadium-sold.html

Actually, this is almost certainly a really good twist for the Aces rather than the gloomy one you're portraying, especially while the new speedway stadium remains so bogged down in its planning stage.

 

That's because unless the new owners have their own financial headaches, this deal should remove any threat of a sudden closure of Kirky Lane that could have happened if the Greyhound Racing Association had remained linked to owning it as well as operating it.

 

In case you haven't been following the Wimbledon & Oxford Stadium threads on this forum, the future of Kirky Lane has been in the background of an increasingly desperate need of the GRA's current owners to repay multi-million-pound loans they received around a decade ago from Irish banks so that they could purchase the GRA from the property-owning leftovers of the old Wembley Stadium.

 

Officially, Risk Capital bought the GRA from Wembley plc for £50-million ... but it soon became clear Galliard Homes were on board with Risk Capital and then it emerged Risk/Galliard were having to keep sweet the Irish government's debt-collecting agency Nama who've been chasing the long-overdue repayments of those loans from the Irish banks.

 

For several months now, the Racing Post has always referred to Nama as owning the GRA as a reflection of just how much Risk/Galliard are in Nama's grip.

 

Wimbledon's future (as it's by far the most lucrative GRA site for housing development) remains the main focus of Risk/Galliard keeping Nama on-side but all the GRA tracks, including Belle Vue, have been caught up in the mess that while they appear profitable on a day-to-day basis, those profits are probably only covering the interest on those Irish loans rather than making any worthwhile dent in repaying them ... hence, Risk/Galliard are stuck in a permanent state of just keeping Nama at bay rather than finally shrugging them off.

 

That's created a risk of Nama having a last resort of getting some of the Irish-millions back by closing all of Wimbledon, Belle Vue and Hall Green (in south-east Birmingham) for a quick sale of all the assets with all the uncertainties that would cause (although the Birmingham Brummies' home track Perry Barr would be a different matter as the GRA's use of it is tied up in a special deal with Birmingham City Council rather than it counting towards the overall Risk/Galliard asset list).

 

In the Aces' case, such a scenario of closure for an emergency sale could've been diabolical as it's also my understanding that Manchester City Council would have huge doubts about granting a very-long-term stadium-building loan to any sporting club that was temporarily homeless or defunct ... even if the Aces have been losing any money lately staying at Kirky Lane, at least it may well have kept them ticking-over as far as qualifying for that new stadium-building loan is concerned.

 

Last October, Nama invited individual bids for either Belle Vue or Hall Green in what was clearly an attempt to drum up some lump-sums to speed-up repaying the Irish banks and although nothing seemed to emerge in the 2-week timescale Nama wanted for that bidding, this week's deal for Belle Vue may well have begun around that time.

 

Look closely at the Place North West report of this week's deal at Belle Vue and you'll see it refers to "sale and leaseback" in the top paragraph ... what that means is the new owners have bought the freehold rights to the stadium (the "sale") while accepting that its current activities continue (the "leaseback") ... it would've cost them much more to buy out the existing lease to give them a chance of doing whatever they want with the site (and, even then, they could still need to overcome any historical covenants over the designated-use of the site along with any local council objections to the existing facilities being demolished).

 

Although it's not on the greyhound section of their website, the Racing Post newspaper reported this deal yesterday although it named the new buyer as Crown Oil Pension Fund (rather than SCP Investments according to the Place North West report) while agreeing with the £2,600,000 price tag.

 

The total amount Risk/Galliard still owes the Irish banks has never been confirmed but it's generally regarded within greyhound racing that at least £10-million is still outstanding and maybe double that ... hence the Belle Vue deal probably cuts just a good slice off the overall problem rather than solving it and that would add up with a similar deal at Hall Green also being hinted at in yesterday's Racing Post.

 

The other discrepancy between the two reports is that the Racing Post have always reckoned there's a 15-year-lease for greyhound racing at Belle Vue that began last summer whereas the Place North West report reckons its 10-years ... either way, that lease is clearly long enough to give confidence that the stadium will remain open for sporting business so that the Aces can negotiate however many more seasons they need to lease its speedway track.

 

And now that Belle Vue's freehold owner and sporting leaseholder are two totally different businesses, that's a far safer scenario for the speedway or stock-car tenants than the previous situation ... until this week, Risk/Galliard as the freeholder could tread all over the GRA as the leaseholder because they're all wrapped up together in their battle to keep Nama happy.

 

Now, in return for the £2,600,000 lump sum that almost certainly lands on Nama's doorstep as soon as possible to keep them sweet for a bit longer, Risk/Galliard can't alter the GRA's Belle Vue lease because they no longer own that lease ... what's more, this week's deal probably includes the new owners inserting penalty clauses against Risk/Galliard as the GRA's owners if the GRA try to bale out early from their Belle Vue lease.

 

I can appreciate all the above stuff may be a bit complicated, especially if you haven't looked much in recent months at the Wimbledon & Oxford threads.

 

But I hope you can still understand why I reckon the change of ownership of Belle Vue is good news for the Aces rather than gloomy news because it means Risk/Galliard have far less influence over what goes on at Kirky Lane when their overwhelming priority remains sorting out their Irish debts rather than caring for any sports fans.

Edited March 27, 2014 by arthur cross

[oldace]

Actually, this is almost certainly a really good twist for the Aces rather than the gloomy one you're portraying, especially while the new speedway stadium remains so bogged down in its planning stage.

 

That's because unless the new owners have their own financial headaches, this deal should remove any threat of a sudden closure of Kirky Lane that could have happened if the Greyhound Racing Association had remained linked to owning it as well as operating it.

 

In case you haven't been following the Wimbledon & Oxford Stadium threads on this forum, the future of Kirky Lane has been in the background of an increasingly desperate need of the GRA's current owners to repay multi-million-pound loans they received around a decade ago from Irish banks so that they could purchase the GRA from the property-owning leftovers of the old Wembley Stadium.

 

Officially, Risk Capital bought the GRA from Wembley plc for £50-million ... but it soon became clear Galliard Homes were on board with Risk Capital and then it emerged Risk/Galliard were having to keep sweet the Irish government's debt-collecting agency Nama who've been chasing the long-overdue repayments of those loans from the Irish banks.

 

For several months now, the Racing Post has always referred to Nama as owning the GRA as a reflection of just how much Risk/Galliard are in Nama's grip.

 

Wimbledon's future (as it's by far the most lucrative GRA site for housing development) remains the main focus of Risk/Galliard keeping Nama on-side but all the GRA tracks, including Belle Vue, have been caught up in the mess that while they appear profitable on a day-to-day basis, those profits are probably only covering the interest on those Irish loans rather than making any worthwhile dent in repaying them ... hence, Risk/Galliard are stuck in a permanent state of just keeping Nama at bay rather than finally shrugging them off.

 

That's created a risk of Nama having a last resort of getting some of the Irish-millions back by closing all of Wimbledon, Belle Vue and Hall Green (in south-east Birmingham) for a quick sale of all the assets with all the uncertainties that would cause (although the Birmingham Brummies' home track Perry Barr would be a different matter as the GRA's use of it is tied up in a special deal with Birmingham City Council rather than it counting towards the overall Risk/Galliard asset list).

 

In the Aces' case, such a scenario of closure for an emergency sale could've been diabolical as it's also my understanding that Manchester City Council would have huge doubts about granting a very-long-term stadium-building loan to any sporting club that was temporarily homeless or defunct ... even if the Aces have been losing any money lately staying at Kirky Lane, at least it may well have kept them ticking-over as far as qualifying for that new stadium-building loan is concerned.

 

Last October, Nama invited individual bids for either Belle Vue or Hall Green in what was clearly an attempt to drum up some lump-sums to speed-up repaying the Irish banks and although nothing seemed to emerge in the 2-week timescale Nama wanted for that bidding, this week's deal for Belle Vue may well have begun around that time.

 

Look closely at the Place North West report of this week's deal at Belle Vue and you'll see it refers to "sale and leaseback" in the top paragraph ... what that means is the new owners have bought the freehold rights to the stadium (the "sale") while accepting that its current activities continue (the "leaseback") ... it would've cost them much more to buy out the existing lease to give them a chance of doing whatever they want with the site (and, even then, they could still need to overcome any historical covenants over the designated-use of the site along with any local council objections to the existing facilities being demolished).

 

Although it's not on the greyhound section of their website, the Racing Post newspaper reported this deal yesterday although it named the new buyer as Crown Oil Pension Fund (rather than SCP Investments according to the Place North West report) while agreeing with the £2,600,000 price tag.

 

The total amount Risk/Galliard still owes the Irish banks has never been confirmed but it's generally regarded within greyhound racing that at least £10-million is still outstanding and maybe double that ... hence the Belle Vue deal probably cuts just a good slice off the overall problem rather than solving it and that would add up with a similar deal at Hall Green also being hinted at in yesterday's Racing Post.

 

The other discrepancy between the two reports is that the Racing Post have always reckoned there's a 15-year-lease for greyhound racing at Belle Vue that began last summer whereas the Place North West report reckons its 10-years ... either way, that lease is clearly long enough to give confidence that the stadium will remain open for sporting business so that the Aces can negotiate however many more seasons they need to lease its speedway track.

 

And now that Belle Vue's freehold owner and sporting leaseholder are two totally different businesses, that's a far safer scenario for the speedway or stock-car tenants than the previous situation ... until this week, Risk/Galliard as the freeholder could tread all over the GRA as the leaseholder because they're all wrapped up together in their battle to keep Nama happy.

 

Now, in return for the £2,600,000 lump sum that almost certainly lands on Nama's doorstep as soon as possible to keep them sweet for a bit longer, Risk/Galliard can't alter the GRA's Belle Vue lease because they no longer own that lease ... what's more, this week's deal probably includes the new owners inserting penalty clauses against Risk/Galliard as the GRA's owners if the GRA try to bale out early from their Belle Vue lease.

 

I can appreciate all the above stuff may be a bit complicated, especially if you haven't looked much in recent months at the Wimbledon & Oxford threads.

 

But I hope you can still understand why I reckon the change of ownership of Belle Vue is good news for the Aces rather than gloomy news because it means Risk/Galliard have far less influence over what goes on at Kirky Lane when their overwhelming priority remains sorting out their Irish debts rather than caring for any sports fans.

 

 

Indeed Arthur, I didn't suggest for a minute that it would be immediate closure, I said its day are numbered, which is clearly the case.

 

Bottom line is though that the site hasn't been purchased with a view to it remaining as a stadium long term.

 

To be honest though I can't see what they would build there at this moment, a few years ago I would have thought it ripe for a supermarket but with a new Tesco over the road, Asda only a few hundred yards away and an Aldi within spitting distance can't see that now.

 

Gorton struggles to sell the houses it currently has and really cant see a need for more and certainly not high end type property, it isn't the right area.

 

The "close proximity to the city centre" line does lead you to believe the site will eventually be housing but perhaps it has a few years left as a stadium although for certain investment will be zero and the place will be allowed to crumble

[arthur cross]

Indeed Arthur, I didn't suggest for a minute that it would be immediate closure, I said its day are numbered, which is clearly the case.

 

Bottom line is though that the site hasn't been purchased with a view to it remaining as a stadium long term.

 

To be honest though I can't see what they would build there at this moment, a few years ago I would have thought it ripe for a supermarket but with a new Tesco over the road, Asda only a few hundred yards away and an Aldi within spitting distance can't see that now.

 

Gorton struggles to sell the houses it currently has and really cant see a need for more and certainly not high end type property, it isn't the right area.

 

The "close proximity to the city centre" line does lead you to believe the site will eventually be housing but perhaps it has a few years left as a stadium although for certain investment will be zero and the place will be allowed to crumble

Yesterday's Racing Post also reckoned there is a covenant in place at Kirky Lane which would make full redevelopment for housing awkward (as far as I know, there's something similar at Newcastle dating back to Brough Park being named in honour of Lord Brough when that venue was built in the 1920's).

 

I can understand your medium and longer-term fears for this particular stadium's future but that won't matter to the Aces if they're already in their new home before those fears become reality.

 

But while Risk/Galliard still owned Kirky Lane there was also much more of an immediate shadow hanging over Kirky Lane's future whatever your combination of Aces, stock car or dogs enthusiasm.

 

Best case scenario for the Aces might be that this week's deal gives them enough time to build and become established in their new home before Kirky Lane undergoes a revamp similar to the one I've mentioned several times elsewhere on this forum that occurred at Dublin's top greyhound venue Shelbourne Park about a decade ago.

 

Shelbourne sold off enough land round the first and second bends for new apartments to fund the overhaul of the dog track and hugely revamp its spectator facilities ... something similar to that might bend Kirky Lane's covenant rather than break it but the residential aspect would be a killer to the Aces if they still needed their track to be included in such a revamp.

 

Mind you, I'm still realistically sceptical (while hoping to be proved wrong) about the Aces' new stadium on two counts ... firstly, I've big doubts about the current Aces management (or anyone they appoint) successfully running it once it's built ... but more importantly in terms of even getting it built, I get the impression (while living well away from Manchester) that the city council are now putting much more effort into how they can link-up with the community-based aspects of Man City's amazingly detailed expansion plans only a mile or so north of Kirky Lane rather than doing anything to hurry up creating a new speedway track near the current one.

[oldace]

Yesterday's Racing Post also reckoned there is a covenant in place at Kirky Lane which would make full redevelopment for housing awkward (as far as I know, there's something similar at Newcastle dating back to Brough Park being named in honour of Lord Brough when that venue was built in the 1920's).

 

I can understand your medium and longer-term fears for this particular stadium's future but that won't matter to the Aces if they're already in their new home before those fears become reality.

 

But while Risk/Galliard still owned Kirky Lane there was also much more of an immediate shadow hanging over Kirky Lane's future whatever your combination of Aces, stock car or dogs enthusiasm.

 

Best case scenario for the Aces might be that this week's deal gives them enough time to build and become established in their new home before Kirky Lane undergoes a revamp similar to the one I've mentioned several times elsewhere on this forum that occurred at Dublin's top greyhound venue Shelbourne Park about a decade ago.

 

Shelbourne sold off enough land round the first and second bends for new apartments to fund the overhaul of the dog track and hugely revamp its spectator facilities ... something similar to that might bend Kirky Lane's covenant rather than break it but the residential aspect would be a killer to the Aces if they still needed their track to be included in such a revamp.

 

Mind you, I'm still realistically sceptical (while hoping to be proved wrong) about the Aces' new stadium on two counts ... firstly, I've big doubts about the current Aces management (or anyone they appoint) successfully running it once it's built ... but more importantly in terms of even getting it built, I get the impression (while living well away from Manchester) that the city council are now putting much more effort into how they can link-up with the community-based aspects of Man City's amazingly detailed expansion plans only a mile or so north of Kirky Lane rather than doing anything to hurry up creating a new speedway track near the current one.

 

 

There is indeed a covenant but these can be overturned. Should the place fall into disrepair and the area become largely idle with no one wanting to run a sports stadium there then this can be used to change the covenant

 

• The continued existence of the restrictions would impede the reasonable use of the land for public or private purposes without any benefit to other people.

 

Like you I seriously doubt a new stadium will ever be built and the ACES seem reasonably secure for a few years at the dog track but I fully expect that within 5 to 7 years that the stadium will be gone