How Many Heats In A League Meeting ?

[E I Addio]

.Ok an (ex) Mauger averaged 11.74 ok you want to take 2 points off his average does that change my perception of him no it's there all in the history books and my personal experience of seeing him

 

 

This is the point Bwitcher is trying to get across. Your judgement and percption is clouded simply because of the impression riders made on you at a certain point in your life.

 

Take Jack Young, for example. The record books tell us he came from the second division to win the World Championship,then in his second season in the first division he scored 19 maximums in 38 league matches and went on to become the first rider to win back-to-back world titles in an era which we are told consisted of some truly great riders. Can you say that he was a better or worse rider than Mauger ? No because you didn't see him and therefore can add nothing to what the history books say. When I was first going to speedway there were plenty of old timers telling me that the riders of the 70's were not a patch on those of the early 1950'2 Like Aub Lawson, Split Waterman and Bill, Kitchen. Who am I to argue with them if they saw them and I didn't ?

 

The point is that Mauger and his contemporaries were products of their generation. It is futile to compare them with those who went before or came afterwards.

[stratton]

Correct Addio i agree,and where Young rates with his fellow Aussie stars god knows he would be up there.But my main point is about the general quality then and numbers now no more.Of course we will all differ in opinions about riders that will never change off the subject my friend who is a Man U Season ticket holder and a supporter since 1961.He said in the pubs there is always debate about who was better Best or Ronaldo he says all age group opinions differ that's what i mean about having a opinion it isn't clouded or fact just your own.

Edited March 18, 2013 by sidney

[BWitcher]

Correct Addio i agree,and where Young rates with his fellow Aussie stars god knows he would be up there.But my main point is about the general quality then and numbers now no more.Of course we will all differ in opinions about riders that will never change off the subject my friend who is a Man U Season ticket holder and a supporter since 1961.He said in the pubs there is always debate about who was better Best or Ronaldo he says all age group opinions differ that's what i mean about having a opinion it isn't clouded or fact just your own.

 

Sidney.

 

Chris Morton and Chris Harris. Was/Is either a world class rider? If so, which one and why?

Edited March 18, 2013 by BWitcher

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Sidney.

 

Chris Morton and Chris Harris. Was/Is either a world class rider? If so, which one and why?

 

You are fairly insufferable... But to humour you, neither were ever going to be World Champions if that's what you mean... I'd actually put them around 'level' in terms of overall significance within their respective periods..

That okay with you..?!

[waiheke1]

OK, can we justr agree:

 

1. Elite League now is a much lower standards than the old British League, relative to World Speedway standards

2. It is impossible (though fun to try) to compare riders of different eras in absolute terms. This is because our perception of riders is largely determined by how well they performed against other riders of their own era. So, if we are to say who was best PEter Collins or Tomasz Gollob, we are likely to look at their records to differentiate. This problem is exarcebated if you are to compare second strings, becuase we would likely have seen tehm ride less often (i.e. not in majpor individual meetings against other riders of a similr calibre, they would arguably be more likely to pperofrm well/poorly on particular tracks, less footage avialble of them etc).

3. Averages are useful in comparing riders against their peers. However, they are pretty much useless in comparing riders against riders of different eras, becuase of different race formats and inability (per above) to quanitfy in absolute terms the calibre of riders they were racing against. If you doubt how much race formats can influence riders averages, look at how ALL the top riders averages decreased in 1988 when the designated riders race was intriudced compared to 1987 (same pool of top riders, every single one of them decreased in average).

 

4. IT is a myth that all BL teams in the 70s/80s had three top notch heat leaders. Some teams did have as many as four world class heat leaders (e.g. BV team of the easly 70s, Cradley team of the 80s) - however some teams had only one (or even no) true world class riders.

 

Sidney.

 

Chris Morton and Chris Harris. Was/Is either a world class rider? If so, which one and why?

 

World Class - I would take as meaning one of the top 10 or s riders in the world at one time - Morton I believe from 80-84 was in that category, Harris I can't think of any year he would fall into that categorym, though he was capable of world class performances.

C Morton was consistently in the top 10 averages in a league containing the worlds best rides, harris has never ahcieved that. At their best both could win against world class fields (see his BLRC and inter continental titles) as could Harris (GP title victory), though neither was ikely to be world champion due to their inability to gate. Mort however would have arguably been close to a rosturm place in 83/84 under a GP system, Harris never has been. Personally, I would class Harris as a "poor mans" Morton, with no disrespect intetnded to either rider. Having seen Morton race weekly at Hyde Rd, I also believe he was capable of moves on a speedwa bike which Harris is not capable of.

Note, while I believe Mort was wold class, Harris "borderline", that does not mean that in absolute terms, Morton was better than Harris (though my opinion is that he was).

 

Back to the topic, 13 heats vs 15 heats. TO me, the 13 heat format is the classic, its what I grew up with. However, it would be ludicrous (IMHO) to do away with the designated riders heat which is part of the 15 heat format. The key to me is that heats need to be got through quickly, a meeting should last no more than an hour and a half (something to be learnt from cricket here, in that T20 fits the requirements of a mdoern audience for something which is crammed into a shorter time frame to maximise viewing audicneces - the good thing for speedway is that it doesn't need to bastardise itself to do so, it just needs to get rid of the meaningless delays.

For something different - perhaps 7 match races (7v7 , 6vs etc) to start the meteeting, each worth a point each, followed by either 14 (classic 13 heat, plus one nominated riders race) or 15 heats (current format) of team racing,I imagine this should still be able to be crammed into 90 minutes. Alternatively, a meaningful second half (points counted toward ELRS qualification?) - the issue I see with this is that come the second half of the year, only a certain number of riders would still have anything worth racing for.

Edited March 19, 2013 by waihekeaces1

[stratton]

 

 

Sidney.

 

Chris Morton and Chris Harris. Was/Is either a world class rider? If so, which one and why?

Very similar in style both out and out racers, Morton was one of the most exciting riders i ever saw.Morton 1979 til 1984 his best years certainly was world class Hyde Rd at times he was awesome!

[BWitcher]

Very similar in style both out and out racers, Morton was one of the most exciting riders i ever saw.Morton 1979 til 1984 his best years certainly was world class Hyde Rd at times he was awesome!

 

Looking at their respective international records, not a lot of difference. Best Morton managed was World no 9, in 1980, and again in 1986. Pretty similar to what Harris has managed.

 

Yet Morton will be remembered as being a far better rider than Harris I have no doubt, primarily because the format he rode in at the time allowed him to clock up a 9-10pt average consistently.

 

For the record I believe Morton was better than Harris, but not by that bigger margin.

[SCB]

Looking at their respective international records, not a lot of difference. Best Morton managed was World no 9, in 1980, and again in 1986. Pretty similar to what Harris has managed.

 

Yet Morton will be remembered as being a far better rider than Harris I have no doubt, primarily because the format he rode in at the time allowed him to clock up a 9-10pt average consistently.

 

For the record I believe Morton was better than Harris, but not by that bigger margin.

Actually, Bomber was World number 5/6 (joint 5th but dropped to 6th because Greg had won a GP) in 2010 and finished on the podium 4 times in 11 GP's that season. So arguably, his best season was better than Mortons.

 

Ah, the joy of numbers

[BWitcher]

Actually, Bomber was World number 5/6 (joint 5th but dropped to 6th because Greg had won a GP) in 2010 and finished on the podium 4 times in 11 GP's that season. So arguably, his best season was better than Mortons.

 

Ah, the joy of numbers

 

Indeed.

 

Its just one of example of how there were a raft of riders consistently averaging 8.5-10 in the old format that were perceived to be world class, when the reality is they were about the level of 7-8 pt riders now and in terms of Polish/Swedish league perhaps even 6-7 pt riders.

 

It's why the vast majority of them never consistently achieved anything on the World stage, compared to the big hitters of the day.. as it has been in every era of the sport.

[g13webb]

Of course he does TWK, nobody disputes that. It's when he confuses opinions with facts that things get muddled.

 

I don't wish to be synical, but some of the stuff you have said here is one sided and gives a wrong perception of the facts.

Nobody disputes that the 70's was a great era for speedway, or that the top riders of the 70's weren't the equals of the top riders of today, or other eras (compared against their peers). What has no substance is claiming that Simmons was a better rider than Nicholls for example because 'you've seen them both race'. All you can compare is their records and achievements. They were riding different bikes, different tracks, so vastly removed from the sport now you can't compare. Correct ,you can't say who was best just because you see them both ride, that would be shallow. But you can can offer an opinion base on achievement and standard they both acquired. In this case Simmo was far more successful then Nicholls on the world stage, having won both the pairs and team world cups. So yes although they rode in differrent eras, rode different machinery, it would be safe to say Simmo was the better rider.

 

Throughout these debates its actually been Sidney who has been dismissing others opinions with his claim that 'we didn't seem them race'. Some of us have tried to point out that has no real relevance.

 

I will try and explain the 'averages' comment I made... Firstly, lets consider what makes us judge how good a rider is. I would suggest the most important thing is winning races? The more races a rider wins the better we will think he is.. seems a fairly common denominator as a rule of thumb. Averages are simply an extension of that. The higher the average, the more they win and the better you perceive the rider to be. I don't think anyone can disagree with that surely? Yes I will, !! In your logical mind a rider has to win to achieve a high average to show he's any good. In my mind he has to perform. whether that be coming from the back, or showing his ability in a strong line-up, it varies, there are many ways to show you iare a decent rider without neccesary winning. Opinions are based on many things. Of cause the averages show one side ,but they are not the be all of every riders ability.

 

The point where some understanding goes out the window is when you throw in the formats operated. The format in the 70's, with a large league, fixed gate positions, no heat 13 and 15 meant that the top riders met much less often than now. It also meant many always had the favourable gate position, unlike now. A larger league meant the best 2 riders in the league might clash twice over the course of a season, compared to a possible 12 times over a course of a season now. What it adds up to is a far greater number of riders who you are seeing consistently winning races, achieving a high average and therefore establishing themselves in your mind as being a legit top line rider. That would be the case regardless of who the contesting riders were. You are in a total mis-conception here about the reality of the 13 heat format. You mention the leagues top two riders would only met each other twice but that now in a smaller league they would meet a dozen times. You say that as if it is that important. ( irregardlessof the fact the two top riders dont race against each other as there in the same team). Years ago the format was different, each team had 3 heat leaders, (riders 1, 3, & 5) ans these could be placed in any order as per the team manager wanted. A home No 1 rider would ride against the away team No 1 once, No3 and No.5 twice. so it wasn't that easy option you say it was. With the TR the top riders could easily face each 3 times per meeting. Back then they rode in 38 matches, and each had their own top riders. a lot more then they do today. I think you will find the reason the format was changed to 15 heats was because the sport was running short of these class riders and having the nominated heats would create more interest. I am not saying it doesn't effect the averages, no doubt it does, but it annoys me how you go rubbishing what was once a far better organised sport then we have now.

 

Some take this to be 'belittling' riders from that era, it isn't at all, its just putting a mathematical slant on things is all.

 

Let's put it this way.. imagine you had the top 70 riders in the 70's riding in a 10 team league, as per the current format. You never saw them in any other format but that, by Sidneys reckoning he'd still identify 60 heat leaders.. I say he wouldn't.. he'd think 40 of the riders he thought were superstars were pretty average. Pure fabrication to illustrate your ideas. Of cause their average would go down, in the same way that if you put the bottom 70 riders into a 10 team format, their average would go up. They 're both mathematical facts and bear no relevance to Quality. Quality shows through whatever the average.

 

By the same token, take 140 riders from now, put them into the format of the 70's, if you never saw them in any other format, you'd think there were 60 damn good riders. We haven't got 140 riders now, that is the reason why we only have 10 teams....Had we had kept that about of riders then we would still be having the 13 heat format.

 

There's no question that the BL was stronger then in terms of its world standing than the EL is now, thats obvious, but even then you still can't prove the standard was better (head to head). I don't understand that line, the first part contradicts the second.

 

That's all the debate is about, its not an attack of older riders which for some reason some take it to be... its simply explaining perception plays a major, major role in our judgement

 

Like I said, I don't wish to be synical, and i hope i haven't affended anyone. but i feel you are trying to push your views across to others using bias examples and calling them facts. Opinions will always differ, that what democracy is all about. But some people need to have more strength in their own convictions rather then be led by others....

[E I Addio]

Actually, Bomber was World number 5/6 (joint 5th but dropped to 6th because Greg had won a GP) in 2010 and finished on the podium 4 times in 11 GP's that season. So arguably, his best season was better than Mortons.

 

Ah, the joy of numbers

 

We can take that a stage further. Bomber was good enough to beat the worlds best in a single meeting, which Morton never was, so if the 2007 British GP had been an old style World Final (which at Cardiff it might well have been) Bomber would have a World Title to his name. It was by any standards a great win and he was best on the night. So if that had happened would we now be comparing Bomber with single winners like Michanek, Collins, Lee, and Ermolenko or would we be comparing him to likes of Szczakiel and Muller, who on paper at least were good enough to win a World title but are regarded as lesser men than the others. Was Bomber better than Kenny Carter ?

Can you trust the record books ?

[stratton]

 

 

We can take that a stage further. Bomber was good enough to beat the worlds best in a single meeting, which Morton never was, so if the 2007 British GP had been an old style World Final (which at Cardiff it might well have been) Bomber would have a World Title to his name. It was by any standards a great win and he was best on the night. So if that had happened would we now be comparing Bomber with single winners like Michanek, Collins, Lee, and Ermolenko or would we be comparing him to likes of Szczakiel and Muller, who on paper at least were good enough to win a World title but are regarded as lesser men than the others. Was Bomber better than Kenny Carter ?

Can you trust the record books ?

Harris i admire as a rider, but you are underating Morton big time,to reach a one off final was harder for starters.Also the GP Series is nearly a closed shop harder to get out of than in!Did Mort win the intercontinental final and a top class BLRC beating a peak Nielsen? Bearing in mind then one mistake and you are out of the running, none of this scrounging through to a semi on 7 pts and then winning the Final.I think you need to do your research on Morton,s career.

[BWitcher]

Like I said, I don't wish to be synical, and i hope i haven't affended anyone. but i feel you are trying to push your views across to others using bias examples and calling them facts. Opinions will always differ, that what democracy is all about. But some people need to have more strength in their own convictions rather then be led by others....

 

You haven't offended anyone, but you've given us a damn good laugh. So much wrong with your post, including an attempt to rewrite speedway history. It has illustrated that there is absolutely no point trying to have a rational conversation/debate with you.

 

If only we had more riders, all those teams who have closed would still be running..

 

I'm off to scour all the lists of the sports best riders and see how many I can find that weren't regular race winners with high averages.. after all, thats not what's important.. its the 'quality'.. Got to be a few career 4pt riders who were 'quality' amongst the sports greats.

Edited March 19, 2013 by BWitcher

[oldace]

Harris i admire as a rider, but you are underating Morton big time,to reach a one off final was harder for starters.Also the GP Series is nearly a closed shop harder to get out of than in!Did Mort win the intercontinental final and a top class BLRC beating a peak Nielsen? Bearing in mind then one mistake and you are out of the running, none of this scrounging through to a semi on 7 pts and then winning the Final.I think you need to do your research on Morton,s career.

 

Your'e a legend Sidney, did you type all that with a straight face

[The White Knight]

Your'e a legend Sidney, did you type all that with a straight face

 

Well I actually agree with sidney on the bit you highlighted.

[oldace]

Well I actually agree with sidney on the bit you highlighted.

 

I know you do Ian, we have been here before have we not?

[The White Knight]

I know you do Ian, we have been here before have we not?

 

Yes my friend - we have. :)

 

I just like to be part of the action - that's all oldace.

[SCB]

I'm off to scour all the lists of the sports best riders and see how many I can find that weren't regular race winners with high averages.. after all, thats not what's important.. its the 'quality'.. Got to be a few career 4pt riders who were 'quality' amongst the sports greats.

Mark Burrows.

 

I bet you feel foolish now!

 

Chris Mortons World Final record. 6,8,6,7,8,9,6. Looks very much like a Chris Harris GP scores record to me. Making them very much the same.

Edited March 19, 2013 by SCB

[stratton]

 

 

Your'e a legend Sidney, did you type all that with a straight face

What do you mean how dare you ! Na only joking won't be going there again!

 

Bewitcher the only laugh i have had is off of you, you got yourself going around in circles.All you had to say was i don't like comparing different era,s simples people respect that. But you ended up telling us what most people had already said the EL is not at the greatest standard now you got there in the end!!

[Deano]

Anyone else feel "pregnant" after reading all that?