stratton Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Sidney, you're tying yourself in knots and defeating your own arguments. Na what is your problem!debate you haven't a clue you would be a great politician!Give an opinion GR made you look a mug big time, but so sad you really believe you are ahead of the game.Ive said Jensen and Magic are very talented with you ive no idea what your overall feeling is you twist things around to suit yourself. The 2 ive mentioned are they world class ?is that to hard for you to take in tying myself up in knots laughable. Debating with you is so easy because you haven't the confidence and conviction of your own opinions what spin and twisting things around will you come up with next.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Na what is your problem!debate you haven't a clue you would be a great politician!Give an opinion GR made you look a mug big time, but so sad you really believe you are ahead of the game.Ive said Jensen and Magic are very talented with you ive no idea what your overall feeling is you twist things around to suit yourself. The 2 ive mentioned are they world class ?is that to hard for you to take in tying myself up in knots laughable. Debating with you is so easy because you haven't the confidence and conviction of your own opinions what spin and twisting things around will you come up with next.? One moment you are telling us how low quality the EL is. The next you are banging on about World Class riders, who just happen to be third heat leader/2nd strings in this 'low quality EL'. One moment you are telling us to forget averages, winning races etc as a way to judge a rider.. you just judge them on what you see 'live'.. The next you're banging on to forget their performance in the EL (which is what you'll have seen) and look at their cv's, their history etc.. which funnily enough is impressive because of the races they've won.. which funnily enough is how I have been saying good riders are judged all along. GRW didn't make me look like a mug, you are the only person who thinks that. He's made a series of ridiculous statements and thrown his toys out the pram, stamped his feet and run off when they were highlighted. My views have remained consistent throughout the entire debate, however I also acknowledge when I learn things. I wasn't aware that Chris Morton was consistently in the top 10 in the BL averages quite as often as he was, I thought he was in the 10-20 bracket. I didn't throw my toys out my pram and call people fools when that was highlighted to me. I didn't claim that it wasn't a fact, just that persons opinion, I took it on board like an intelligent person would. Regarding MJJ, no I don't class him as World Class yet. On his day he can beat the best, but he is not yet consistent enough to be classed as a World Class rider in my eyes. 6.90 average in Sweden, 6.50 in Poland, 6.54 in the UK show he has a way to go yet to enter the top echelon of riders. I'm sure he will get there. Janowski is fairly similar. 5.70 average in Sweden, 6.69 in Poland, 6.13 in the UK. Edited March 21, 2013 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Maybe you mean "the racing is as good as it ever was".That might be hard to disagree with.But to say "the sport is as good as it ever was" is a bit dodgy i would say.If you watched a good heat in a stadium with 5 or 10,000 others it is hard to say it is the same or even in your opinion worse than if you are among 300 or 1,000 people.I can go to an 80cc meeting in Denmark and see a great heat,but as there are only 100 people at most there it doesn't really have the same impact as watching a great heat at a packed Plough lane for the Internationale or an England v USA test match.I can't see how anyone can deny the sport has gone downhill from those days even if the racing has basically remained the same or similar An excellent posting - and an important distinction. Getting the SPORT back to that level must be everyone's aim. Whether possible to achieve is another matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well done Witcher you gave a straight opinion , well done as for making you look a mug GR did that big time but we won't hold that against you. I am not fans of either of the two mentioned but they are both world class has Jensen already won a GP? no different to Vacuiliev he,s a talent to.Do you believe the 2 mentioned are that bothered about the EL they do they're best but they move on and have bigger eggs to fry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well done Witcher you gave a straight opinion , well done as for making you look a mug GR did that big time but we won't hold that against you. I am not fans of either of the two mentioned but they are both world class has Jensen already won a GP? no different to Vacuiliev he,s a talent to.Do you believe the 2 mentioned are that bothered about the EL they do they're best but they move on and have bigger eggs to fry. I'm glad you think GRW made me look like a mug Sidney, if that makes you feel better and helps you sleep at night, that's good. Trying to get my head around the 'are they bothered about the EL'.. 'world class'.. and they 'do their best'... forgive me.. but if a 'world class' rider was 'doing their best' in the EL they'd be better than a 6pt rider. I guess you have a lower definition of World Class. I would class World class as someone at the top of the sport, near the top in the leagues they ride in and succesful at individual level. Greg Hancock, Chris Holder, Darcy Ward, Nicki Pedersen.. Jason Crump before he retired. Those are riders I would class as World Class. MJJ and Magic have the potential to be as good but are someway below them just now. They are not consistent enough to be labelled as 'World Class' at this point in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Ward at the moment is not at the level of the guys you have mentioned he has not proved it no more so than Jensen.He will do i am convinced of it hope so ability wise the best i have seen since Mike Lee and yes he will prove it why would you name Ward in front of a 1 time champ Gollob? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Ward at the moment is not at the level of the guys you have mentioned he has not proved it no more so than Jensen.He will do i am convinced of it hope so ability wise the best i have seen since Mike Lee and yes he will prove it why would you name Ward in front of a 1 time champ Gollob? Simply examples of riders who are above, well above, where Janowski and MJJ are at the moment Sidney. There are others too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 ... but they move on and have bigger eggs to fry. Bigger EGGS to fry..?! Sounds a bit fishy!! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Bigger EGGS to fry..?! Sounds a bit fishy!! LOL! If they ever get the chance Parsloes?the days of Lee having a chance to be champ in his teens are those days gone forever? Edited March 21, 2013 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 If they ever get the chance Parsloes?the days of Lee having a chance to be champ in his teens are those days gone forever? They did get the chance. MJJ scored 0 0 0 0 0 in the final qualifying round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 If they ever get the chance Parsloes?the days of Lee having a chance to be champ in his teens are those days gone forever? how old was emil when he finished on the podium? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 are Jensen and Janowski world class? my view: world class talents yes, able to produce world class performances yes, but world class - not yet in my view. I'd say they are some way behind Ward, Emil, Hancock, Gollob, Hampel, Holder , Pedersen (cearly world class), and also a (smaller)drop back from the likes of Lindback, Vaculik, NKI, who are probably "borderine" world class. But obviously it depends what cut off you use for world class, whethe it means being capable of beating the world's best, or if it means being capable of doing so consistently Give an opinion GR made you look a mug big time tbh, I thought GR has made only one person look a mug, but it apppears he has actually managed to make two peole look like one... as an example, just to highlight a couple of FACTUAL inaccuracies the 13-heat format, this format was about for 40 odd years. It was recognised the world over. Actually, the “classic” 13 heat format that most know was in effect in the BL for 20 years (1969-87), and was by no means a world standard. A 13 heat format was used prior to that time, but with quite a different racing order. Now, because the quality has diminished, we have to have nominated heats solely to get the few top riders left, racing each other, more often. But the nominated heat was actually introduced in 1988, and era when all the top riders still raced in Britain, and all sides had what I am sure you would consider “proper heat leaders.” Ward at the moment is not at the level of the guys you have mentioned he has not proved it no more so than Jensen.He will do i am convinced of it hope so ability wise the best i have seen since Mike Lee and yes he will prove it why would you name Ward in front of a 1 time champ Gollob? The bookmakers seem to disagree Sid, given that they have made him second favourite. Let's be honest, he is some way ahead of MJJ and Jaowski - 4 points better in the EL, quite a chu nk better in the other leagues also. You'd have t think he will finish top 6 -likely better- in the GP this year, I'd say MJJ would have done well to make top 10 , and Janowski I don't believe would out perform any of the riders in the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 Bwitcher a simple question, are Jensen and Janowski world class?the question GR asked they certainly ARE. Both are good anough to be full-time GP riders and there chance will come those two are a example of stats misleading you to a certain extent. They both certainly have the potential but neither of them are world class, or anywhere near it yet. When you compete against and regularly beat the very best riders in the GPs, the Polish League and the Swedish League then yo can be considered world class. You are confusing potential with actual ability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 It makes me laugh eaces1 because most people on here would of never said Iversen was borderline world class.Now people like you are jumping on the bandwagon and saying he is after 1 great season.He is the prime ex) of what i mean of world class ive always known that he was has just needed the consistency the same with Lindback in that respect he has progressed.Jensen and Janowski can compete at world level we have seen that are they as consistent maybe not but how many seasons has Lindgren had to stay at the level he is at.That is my point if a top 30 riders were announced, those 2 at the moment are in it so they can compete.As for someone else,s reminder of MJJ 00000 insane engine troubles in the qualifier that shows what a joke the qualifier is.He showed over the season at world level WTC U21s how good he was forget the EL as it was odvious he found that more of a hindrance than anything else.Also remember Iversen nearly got scanked in the qualifier ( why he was in it god knows)that was after being awesome all year in all leagues he certainly was in the top 6 riders in the world.Ok i will rephrase that word World class would they be out of place at world level no would certainly be able to mix it.You are not telling me those 2 are worse than Woffinden(who will surprise many and to me is another ex of someone who can compete at world level not consistent anough but that might come.As for GR he has took abuse beyond anything in my eyes very poor and believe what you want he has come out of it very well.Have a opinion by all means that's what it is all about! but please don't act superior and be so SURE( that's dangerous in life)of yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 .As for someone else,s reminder of MJJ 00000 insane engine troubles in the qualifier that shows what a joke the qualifier is. Sidney you, and others, have banged on for years about how there should be this open to all qualifying that you dreamed once existed despite many people pointing out the flaws in it. You now appear to have totally changed your opinion and realise that qualifying can be a joke process. Fortunately the SGP recognises your point and builds in a facility for such eventualities and allows the likes of Ward, clearly good enough but failed to qualify, to take a place in the series. Or is it just qualifiers for the SGP that are a joke, if it had happened in an old Inter Continental Final it would be fine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 (edited) Sidney, Nobody has abused GRW. Pointing out that someone is making incorrect statements, is not abusing anyone, its educating. It's sad to say that the only abuse and childish behaviour on this thread has come from yourself and GRW, the very two people stamping their feet and complaining about it. You've gone round in circles so many times on the thread its unbelievable. Edited March 22, 2013 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 .As for GR he has took abuse beyond anything in my eyes very poor and believe what you want he has come out of it very well. Go on then, point out some of this abuse. I can find posts from GRW and yourself which have been abusive but none containing abuse aimed at yourselves from anyone. People disagreed with him, he had a little paddy and stormed off, you think thats coming out of it very well!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 They both certainly have the potential but neither of them are world class, or anywhere near it yet. When you compete against and regularly beat the very best riders in the GPs, the Polish League and the Swedish League then yo can be considered world class. You are confusing potential with actual ability The highlighted part is really the nub of this particular part of the discussion. Talent is one thing, mental strength is something quite different. A rider might have the natural flair to perform well on certain occasions when things go well but converting that into winning a world title with all its various difficulties along the way is something that few can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 Sidney you, and others, have banged on for years about how there should be this open to all qualifying that you dreamed once existed despite many people pointing out the flaws in it. You now appear to have totally changed your opinion and realise that qualifying can be a joke process. Fortunately the SGP recognises your point and builds in a facility for such eventualities and allows the likes of Ward, clearly good enough but failed to qualify, to take a place in the series. Or is it just qualifiers for the SGP that are a joke, if it had happened in an old Inter Continental Final it would be fine It certainly is these days Oldace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 It certainly is these days Oldace. So MJJ's 0 0 0 0 0 would have got him to a World Final would it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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