Bruiser McHuge Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 i cannot see how going back to 13 heat matches would be the saviour of speedway...i used to like them but always remember wanting more when the match actually finished...it was just the format of the time, that's all..it wouldn't hold any relevance to newer fans today, As for second halves...well i certainly don't think the riders would be up for them with the extra use of engines, tyres etc ...they were quite good for seeing the first glimpse of youngsters , some of whom eventually made the actual team but again i think prople look back therough rose tinted glasses...more meaninful competitive races is surely the answer. AS for rider quality..i happen to think that worldwide there is much more strength in depth today than in the 70's...i think that the quality of rider would more than hold up against that era....you certainly cannot do a comparison on averages..back in the 70's there was the different race format, no nominated riders race, no shared gate positions,,it was a regular occurrence to see a heat leader have the same gate position in every race which is a hell of an advantage when compared to today....i think worldwide there is more quality than back then, more European strength......i think that too many of today's riders are too easily dismissed when compared to older riders and some of the old world finals were not the greatest standard of fields if you ever look back on them ... that is not to say the actual sport is better at league level now...it isn't ...the advantage the 70's had were far more teams so more variety..all the top riders of the day rode here so there was the anticipation of seeing certain riders visiting....that has definitely been lost over the years 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Perfect post Bruiser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Take MJJ for instance, brilliant on the World stage, but only managed 6.5 in the weak Elite League. A rider of his class in the 70's would be averaging 9.5 easily. We could get into a totally new discussion here talking about certain polish riders.. MJJ is a class riders, and yes he could perform well on the worlds stage, the fact he average only 6.5 last year had nothing to do with the league competition, purely on his attitude of racing over here. A truer reflection on his ability would easily push him near the 9 mark. Same could be said about Magic Janowski. A truly incredible rider, who would either, be out of this world taking the like of Lindgren and Holder from the back or would be useless riding around with no intent at all. The fact they are both on ridiculously low average has nothing to do with the standard of the present league as you put it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Hunter Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Take MJJ for instance, brilliant on the World stage, but only managed 6.5 in the weak Elite League. A rider of his class in the 70's would be averaging 9.5 easily. Remember Jerzy Rembas? We could get into a totally new discussion here talking about certain polish riders.. MJJ is a class riders, and yes he could perform well on the worlds stage, the fact he average only 6.5 last year had nothing to do with the league competition, purely on his attitude of racing over here. A truer reflection on his ability would easily push him near the 9 mark. Same could be said about Magic Janowski. A truly incredible rider, who would either, be out of this world taking the like of Lindgren and Holder from the back or would be useless riding around with no intent at all. The fact they are both on ridiculously low average has nothing to do with the standard of the present league as you put it. How true. Using the above named as an example, Rembas was promoted as 'the next big name' in Polish speedway. The next Edward Jancarz or Zenon Plech. Len Silver even wanted him as a direct replacement for the unavailable Plech in '77, but he wasn't allowed over either. He was allowed over in '78 however, and allocated to Leicester. He struggled like hell. Uncompetitive, couldn't gate, couldn't pass either, and was hanging on to his team place week after week, but just as the axe was about to fall, he dropped to reserve and scored a few points to make him worth persevering with. Then he qualified for the Wembley World Final. He looked a completely different rider, getting to a run-off with Scott Autrey and Dave Jessup for third place, making Leicester team mates John Titman and Ila Teromaa (who were both averaging 8.5/9 points a match in the British League) look decidedly second rate. His average including bonus points for that year? 4.84! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 He was allowed over in '78 however, and allocated to Leicester. He struggled like hell. Uncompetitive, couldn't gate, couldn't pass either, and was hanging on to his team place week after week, but just as the axe was about to fall, he dropped to reserve and scored a few points to make him worth persevering with. Then he qualified for the Wembley World Final. He looked a completely different rider, getting to a run-off with Scott Autrey and Dave Jessup for third place, making Leicester team mates John Titman and Ila Teromaa (who were both averaging 8.5/9 points a match in the British League) look decidedly second rate. His average including bonus points for that year? 4.84! I thought that was the idea with team racing, keeping your average low to get a place the following season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) Totally right Hunter about Rembas i often think some of the European and Polish riders sometimes rode on inferior equipment.Can remember the pole Jankowski tearing around the abbey once ( paid max i think.?)also he performed like a world class performer in the world team cup.Then once at Hackney i see him riding on a pile of crap couldn't believe it was the same rider he was very uncompetetive. Edited March 17, 2013 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Hunter Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) I thought that was the idea with team racing, keeping your average low to get a place the following season Not then, no. The total average allowed for a team at that time was 52. You had to have a stunning team or an outrageous home track advantage to get anywhere near that total. Totally right Hunter about Rembas i often think some of the European and Polish riders sometimes rode on inferior equipment.Can remember the pole Jankowski tearing around the abbey once ( paid max i think.?)also he performed like a world class performer in the world team cup.Then once at Hackney i see him riding on a pile of crap couldn't believe it was the same rider he was very uncompetetive. Yep, I remember Roman Jankowski, Sidney. A rider who would do sod all until a vital last heat decider and then go out and get the necessary points to win a match! Especially away from home! You were right about his score, Sidney, it was a paid max. Edited March 17, 2013 by Leicester Hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Frankly, 15 heats represents poor value for money nowadays, and would be even more so if if meetings were run at proper pace. It should be possible to run 12 heats per hour, so they'd be finished inside an hour-and-a-quarter if they weren't artificially dragged out. Meetings should be 20 heats or so, and it's even more important given current admission prices and competition from other entertainment, The problem of course is how to make the extra heats meaningful, and how to pay for them. I've watched all sorts of meeting formats over the years, and I certainly didn't grow up with 'traditional second halves'. However, I do think there's still something in running a second-half individual competition with some juniors mixed in to gain experience, but the key would be to link the second-halves up into some sort of meaningful season-long national competition. Something like a 14-heat main match + 6-heat individual competition might provide a reasonable balance, but I suppose the challenge would how it be financed given the marginal nature of most promotions these days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Oh no, not again. The riders may have been better (subjective), but please don't use averages to back this up as it's been shown to be a nonsense before. Sidney should remember as we had about 30 pages of people demonstrating why he was wrong before. Kester forget about figures averages think about riders ability as others have pointed out it's about the Quality and quantity if you believe the present day is stronger so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Kester forget about figures averages think about riders ability as others have pointed out it's about the Quality and quantity if you believe the present day is stronger so be it. Sidney, you have absolutely no idea about the ability of riders in the 70's compared to the riders of today and there is no way for you to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Sidney, you have absolutely no idea about the ability of riders in the 70's compared to the riders of today and there is no way for you to do so. A strange comment... People who have seen the riders from that decade and now (as I for one have done..) can indeed make a judgement on the respective quality surely.. The point I made earlier was that look at a 'top twenty' in the BL Div 1 from the '70s and you'll see some of the all-time greatest names in the sport; I don't in all honesty think history will return similar judgement on, say, last years 'top 20' of the EL. Here's an example: in 1975 riding in the BL there were these riders: Ole Olsen; Peter Collins; Ivan Mauger; Barry Briggs; Anders Michanek; Michael Lee; John Louis; Malcolm Simmons; Phil Crump; Tommy Jansson; Chris Morton; Scott Autrey; Zenon Plech; Billy Sanders; Terry Betts; Dave Jessup; Ray Wilson; Gordon Kennett; Bengt Jansson; Martin Ashby. Can anyone in all honesty name a top 20 from 2012 to go anywhere near matching this list..?! And let's not go there with a matching list of just the BRITISH riders!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) A strange comment... People who have seen the riders from that decade and now (as I for one have done..) can indeed make a judgement on the respective quality surely.. The point I made earlier was that look at a 'top twenty' in the BL Div 1 from the '70s and you'll see some of the all-time greatest names in the sport; I don't in all honesty think history will return similar judgement on, say, last years 'top 20' of the EL. Here's an example: in 1975 riding in the BL there were these riders: Ole Olsen; Peter Collins; Ivan Mauger; Barry Briggs; Anders Michanek; Michael Lee; John Louis; Malcolm Simmons; Phil Crump; Tommy Jansson; Chris Morton; Scott Autrey; Zenon Plech; Billy Sanders; Terry Betts; Dave Jessup; Ray Wilson; Gordon Kennett; Bengt Jansson; Martin Ashby. Can anyone in all honesty name a top 20 from 2012 to go anywhere near matching this list..?! And let's not go there with a matching list of just the BRITISH riders!!!! Its not a strange comment Parlsloes. Its a factual comment. You cannot accurately compare riders 'ability' from different eras. It matters not one jot whether you have 'seen them' or not. It's a different era, different bikes, different tracks, different opposition, almost a different sport to some extent! As has been said many times also, if you wish to compare the top 20 riders in a league, then you have to look at the equivalent strongest leagues around now, which is either Poland or Sweden. Both of whom the top 20 easily matches that top 20. Indeed Tomasz Gollob was no 25 in the Polish league last season. Edited March 18, 2013 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Sidney, you have absolutely no idea about the ability of riders in the 70's compared to the riders of today and there is no way for you to do so. I agree, what a strange comment to make, no it is not possible for riders of different era's to race against each other, but SIDNEY,s opinion is a valid as yours, after all, they are only individual perceptions and not actual facts. What would be interesting is for the posters to vote on an all-time TOP TWENTY riders of all time and see what percentage of people thought who were actually the best and see what era the majority of top riders came from...... For starters , in MY opinion, Ivan Mauger was the greatest rider of all time, he wasn't someone I warm too, but sheer class personified.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I agree, what a strange comment to make, no it is not possible for riders of different era's to race against each other, but SIDNEY,s opinion is a valid as yours, after all, they are only individual perceptions and not actual facts. What would be interesting is for the posters to vote on an all-time TOP TWENTY riders of all time and see what percentage of people thought who were actually the best and see what era the majority of top riders came from...... For starters , in MY opinion, Ivan Mauger was the greatest rider of all time, he wasn't someone I warm too, but sheer class personified.... As above, its not a strange comment. Its a fact. Simple as daylight. You can only compare a riders achievements in his era against that of another and even then that is flawed on many occasions as people look at certain riders who consistently averaged 9-10 pts in the old BL, but did relatively little on the World Stage. In a league of half the size, they'd be your average journeyman 2nd heat leader and viewed very differently, rather like a Chris Harris or a Rory Schlein now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 So what your actually saying is Peter Collins weren't that good; Ole Olsen was a flash in the pan, Eric Gundersen was just another rider, Hans Neilsen weren't that special and if those riders rode today they would be also-rans.......... GET REAL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) So what your actually saying is Peter Collins weren't that good; Ole Olsen was a flash in the pan, Eric Gundersen was just another rider, Hans Neilsen weren't that special and if those riders rode today they would be also-rans.......... GET REAL No, I'm not saying that at all as they were the upper echelon of the time, as riders such as Chris Holder, Darcy Ward, Greg Hancock etc are the upper echelon now. Its the next bracket down, riders 10-20 as an example. If they were competing in a 10 team league during the 1970's, under the heat format of today you would not remember them as being as good as quite simply, you wouldn't have been watching them rack up 9-10 pt averages. Do try and read a post, rather than make something up GRW. Edited March 18, 2013 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Thing is to my mind,the promoters want the meeting to in general go on as long as possible.There often seems to be unneccesary delays.Quite possibly i ask is this down to wanting punters to spend more at the track?Wonder if the delays happen more at tracks where the promoter gets the money from bar/restaurant?I do think especially at the beginning or end of the season when the weather is more often if not bad,blooming cold then a short sharp shock 13 heats is the best option.Like someone pointed out,back in the 70s/80s the stadiums used to empty out pretty quickly after the main meeting was finished.Often on a fairly long trip if there are one or two delays i am just looking at the watch and wanting to head off home.Once or twice in recent times i have even done something i would never have done in previous times and left before the meeting has finished 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 So what your actually saying is Peter Collins weren't that good; Ole Olsen was a flash in the pan, Eric Gundersen was just another rider, Hans Neilsen weren't that special and if those riders rode today they would be also-rans.......... GET REAL That's not what he is saying at all, if you read what his posts actually say instead of interpreting them to suit your argument. Bruiser McHugh's post was spot on. Bwitcher is simply putting forward a logical argument based primarily on figures and facts rather than memory. Putting "get real" in capitals and adding a smiley face does not make your mis-quote of his argument correct. Every good rider is a product of his generation, you cannot analyse it any further than that. The riders we see when we are young are always the best. Tomasz Gollob may have been hopeless if he was born in the generation of leg-trailers on a long -stroke J.A.P.'s just as Jack Parker may well have struggled with the technicalities of modern machinery. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 name='E I Addio' timestamp='1363595931' post='2254271'] Bwitcher is simply putting forward a logical argument based primarily on figures and facts rather than memory. I thought we had established you cant look at figures in accessing a riders ability, and any comparison is based on actual achievements, whatever the era. But Bwitcher insists on putting riders down because we only have 10 teams now compared with 20 in the past. What he fails to realise is when we had 20 teams in the league we had twice as many class riders. 20 No.1's etc, and 60 heat leaders. so whatever points they score was well earned. Sure there were also 40 reserve riders in a pool of say 150 riders, that's twice as many as today. To me its irrelevant what their averages were, because they mean nothing when comparing different eras. I know that once we were able to see the best riders in the world, but now we are privilege to see only a few.. and that speaks volumes when talking about quality.....[/b] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I thought we had established you cant look at figures in accessing a riders ability, and any comparison is based on actual achievements, whatever the era. But Bwitcher insists on putting riders down because we only have 10 teams now compared with 20 in the past. What he fails to realise is when we had 20 teams in the league we had twice as many class riders. 20 No.1's etc, and 60 heat leaders. so whatever points they score was well earned. Sure there were also 40 reserve riders in a pool of say 150 riders, that's twice as many as today. To me its irrelevant what their averages were, because they mean nothing when comparing different eras. I know that once we were able to see the best riders in the world, but now we are privilege to see only a few.. and that speaks volumes when talking about quality.....[/b] He doesn't fail to realise it, it is the basis of his argument, an argument that is 100% correct. You are either not reading the posts or have no grasp of simple maths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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