SCB Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) I'm not talking about the size of their averages I'm talking about the quality of the riders.. You can't seriously believe that the top 20 today in any way matches the top 20 of the mid-70s..?!! Nobody has argued that. What was/is argued is that you cannot use averages to prove your point. I would argue that all the higher average will have skewed people thinking that the riders were better than they were. Unless you could put them on a track together at their peak you cannot compare eras, it's impossible. It's possible that if Chris Harris had been around in the 70s he'd have been a 10 point man and a mullti World champion - after all, all tracks had more dirt and passing was easier! Edited March 17, 2013 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy cookie returns? Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Nobody has argued that. What was/is argued is that you cannot use averages to prove your point. I would argue that all the higher average will have skewed people thinking that the riders were better than they were. Unless you could put them on a track together at their peak you cannot compare eras, it's impossible. It's possible that if Chris Harris had been around in the 70s he'd have been a 10 point man and a mullti World champion - after all, all tracks had more dirt and passing was easier! More dirt on the tracks passing was easier. There you go 8 little words that sums it all up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) I'm not talking about the size of their averages I'm talking about the quality of the riders.. You can't seriously believe that the top 20 today in any way matches the top 20 of the mid-70s..?!! And just exactly what do you judge the 'quality of the riders on'. Ah yes, how many races they win and as a result their averages. The simple fact is that it was easier for the top riders to win most of their races in a meeting back then, than it is now. For starters, there were more teams in the league. The more teams you have, the easier it is to win most of your heats and stand out as a 'star'. This was demonstrated as recently as the mid 90's, when the leagues merged. Suddenly you had run of the mill 2nd strings/3rd heat leaders such as Dukie Ermolenko and Shane Parker who would normally be 6-7 pt riders become No 1's with averages of around 8.5. The top 20 riders in the Polish and Swedish leagues now are on a par with those in the 70's.. however they don't appear so dominant because they are racing against each other and beating each other far more often. Its simple maths. 10 teams in a league.. you have 10 no 1's.. 30 heat leaders etc... 20 teams in a league, you've got double the amount regardless of the standard of rider. Edited March 17, 2013 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 More dirt on the tracks passing was easier. There you go 8 little words that sums it all up. EXACTLY!! - but - when will Promoters realise this. Does the 'Gospel' according to St. Ole actually HAVE to be stuck to so rigidly? :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 EXACTLY!! - but - when will Promoters realise this. Does the 'Gospel' according to St. Ole actually HAVE to be stuck to so rigidly? :sad: Lots of dirt these days = Awful meeting, or abandoned meeting. The bikes are completely different and handle differently, even more so with the new silencers. Folk also have very, very selective memories and only remember the great races. There's a number of myths that go round.. "Racing is more strung out these days".. "Too much of a gap between the top riders and reserves".. are to name just two.. yet at the same time we have people telling us how much more dominant the top riders were in the old days... so that's one argument well and truly busted. I have a perception/belief that the racing was miles better in the late 80's/early 90's than it is now. As a teenager/young adult growing up the great races stick in my head much more than they do now. Yet I have every Wolves home meeting on DVD from 1988 through to 1996.. and when I watch them back.. there's very little difference in the quality of the racing and it's nowhere near as fantastic as I remember it to be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) I'm not talking about the size of their averages I'm talking about the quality of the riders.. You can't seriously believe that the top 20 today in any way matches the top 20 of the mid-70s..?!! You can't seriously believe that the worlds top 20 riders from the 70's in their prime would beat today's top 20? One statement is no more able to be proven than the other. I really don't think you are right and the top riders today are at least as as good as they have ever been. More than that I think the standard of riders in the British leagues is very much higher than they are given credit for. Personally I believe that there are riders who have never really progressed past the NL who could have been 2nd strings in the old division 2. Don't forget I am one of the old gits who remember as far back as the 60's as well! As for more dirt on the tracks, a few years ago I would have been the first in line to agree and for the GP's I think that there is certainly a case for more dirt. However my opinion has changed these days and now I think it is more important that the surface suits the track and more dirt will very often kill any chance of decent racing. Edited March 17, 2013 by Vince 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Why is every one hell bent on shrinking speedway,already we have ditched a full set of B fixtures in the Elite league,ditched the Craven Shield and now finally ditched the Knock out cup,now people are advocating loosing 2 heats in a regular meeting,soon there will be nothing left of the sport. "Soon there will be nothing left of the sport." You said it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Eye Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 I'm not talking about the size of their averages I'm talking about the quality of the riders.. You can't seriously believe that the top 20 today in any way matches the top 20 of the mid-70s..?!! Why not? How many Poles rode in Britain in the '70s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Why not? How many Poles rode in Britain in the '70s? Two definitely - Zenon Plech and Edward Jancarz, possibly Andrzej Wyglenda, not too sure about him though. Any others?.............................................................................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Why not? How many Poles rode in Britain in the '70s? Er, the top two Poles at the moment don't ride in Britain either!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Eye Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Er, the top two Poles at the moment don't ride in Britain either!!!! Not at the moment but they have done relatively recently. Also, were the Swedes not banned for a season in the 70s and I'm sure the entertainment would have been just as good during that season. As a rarity on here, I actually enjoy watching speedway so the more heats there are then the better it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 The only way to explain the warp reality that some of you have is to remind everyone that in the late 60's, 70's and 80's all worlds top riders rode in the British League. that's the equivalent of all the SGP riders, all the SGP qualifier riders, and all the world under 21 riders, riding here every week. It didn't matter where they come from, if they were good enough and wanted to be winners then they rode in the British league. Today we only have a sprinkling of the worlds best, so any comparisons made of today's era, to that pre-mentioned falls well short. It's like comparing the Champions league to the 2nd Division. This is not a criticism of the riders such as Holder, Ward, Iversen , merely an explanation of the differences of the number of quality riders.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 To simplify it completely lets go to extremes. Lets have a league of 4 teams with only 1 rider in each team. For arguments sake those riders are Chris Holder, Nicki Pedersen, Greg Hancock and Tomasz Gollob. Now come the end of the season what sort of average would those riders have. In Sidneys world they would easily all have 10 point averages, they are world class riders easily capable of 10 point averages are they not. They couldn't all tend around the six point mark could they, leading the dumber among us to believe they are not as good as a mere second string in the 20 team British League of the 70s 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Sidney, don't start this again. You were made to look a fool the last time. Why get defensive ? only a opinion are you seriously telling me the quality strength in depth numbers are there as in the 60s and 70s.? Riders today are very good some are superstars but the numbers quality wise are not there certainly not in Britain.Anyone with ambition in yesteryear HAD to ride in Britain ask Penhall.Now Britain is a poor relation i admire the riders now and still love watching speedway but you can DRESS figures up as much as you like but quality in numbers no comparisson 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Why get defensive ? only a opinion are you seriously telling me the quality strength in depth numbers are there as in the 60s and 70s.? Riders today are very good some are superstars but the numbers quality wise are not there certainly not in Britain.Anyone with ambition in yesteryear HAD to ride in Britain ask Penhall.Now Britain is a poor relation i admire the riders now and still love watching speedway but you can DRESS figures up as much as you like but quality in numbers no comparisson Of course the Elite League is weaker, it has been purposely weakened to reduce costs. However, teams in Poland and Sweden are at least of as high standard and likely higher. The only way to explain the warp reality that some of you have is to remind everyone that in the late 60's, 70's and 80's all worlds top riders rode in the British League. that's the equivalent of all the SGP riders, all the SGP qualifier riders, and all the world under 21 riders, riding here every week. It didn't matter where they come from, if they were good enough and wanted to be winners then they rode in the British league. Today we only have a sprinkling of the worlds best, so any comparisons made of today's era, to that pre-mentioned falls well short. It's like comparing the Champions league to the 2nd Division. This is not a criticism of the riders such as Holder, Ward, Iversen , merely an explanation of the differences of the number of quality riders.... Nobody is disputing that. However, there were a mulititude of riders averaging around 9 that you likely class as world class riders that would be averaging around 6 in a smaller league and different heat format. Then you'd barely remember them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Oldace in Sidney,s world most teams had 3 in and out heat leaders and forget the figures they were all good week in week out riders.Do you remember Mauger,Sjosten,Collins,Wilkinson,Pusey in same team at one time or another (as a small example)were they all decent or were they're averages rigged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 So Sidney, if 'most teams' had 3 out and out heat leaders as you are saying, that are winning most of their races every week, must mean the bottom end of the teams was pants... So were they that good, or just racing against dross? You see, you are saying to 'dismiss averages' but then use them to back up your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 So Sidney, if 'most teams' had 3 out and out heat leaders as you are saying, that are winning most of their races every week, must mean the bottom end of the teams was pants... So were they that good, or just racing against dross? You see, you are saying to 'dismiss averages' but then use them to back up your argument. You stick to your figures? the racing wasn't dross I've seen decent 57-21 matches all i am saying is quality,quantity,in Britain then was higher.And off the subject on your statement about Sweden and Poland what top riders had to ride there then? they did it on the occasional Sunday maybe a long track meeting because then Britain was the place to be unlike now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Nobody is disputing that. However, there were a mulititude of riders averaging around 9 that you likely class as world class riders that would be averaging around 6 in a smaller league and different heat format. Then you'd barely remember them. Having worked with figures all my life I am well aware of the problems when trying to compare different charts and tables. More often the not the criteria was different and therefore any comparison would be incorrect. All the charts and tables can tell you is how the riders performed in comparison to other in that specific year. When I referred to 'Class' riders, my ideas would reflect their quality rather then the average they achieved. My idea of a class rider would be someone who performed well on the world stage, contested the world final, or represented their country, not simply but scoring a certain average..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) You stick to your figures? the racing wasn't dross I've seen decent 57-21 matches all i am saying is quality,quantity,in Britain then was higher.And off the subject on your statement about Sweden and Poland what top riders had to ride there then? they did it on the occasional Sunday maybe a long track meeting because then Britain was the place to be unlike now! You brought figures in. Facts are facts Sidney. If the top 3 are winning all the races.. the bottom end aren't doing a lot. A larger league over a continual period of time will create a perception of there being a lot more world class riders. However, as we saw on the world stage, there was a difference as it was in the main the same top 'few' who dominated. Just as they do now. You're confusing the argument again. Nobody is questioning that Britain was the 'place to be' then. Poland and Sweden are the place 'to be now'. The standard of those leagues is as high as the British League in the 70's.. but there aren't as many high averaging riders? Why? Smaller League. Its that simple. My idea of a class rider would be someone who performed well on the world stage, contested the world final, or represented their country, not simply but scoring a certain average..... Which would be the same as it is now... Take MJJ for instance, brilliant on the World stage, but only managed 6.5 in the weak Elite League. A rider of his class in the 70's would be averaging 9.5 easily. Edited March 17, 2013 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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