24th August 2013 Gp Challenge @ Poole

[Ghostwalker]

Imo countbacks are better then run offs which really isn't need. At least not if it only is between two riders. Like in this case.

They might have the same amount of points but Smolinski had two heat wins and also defeated Harris when they met,

So why should Harris get another chance? He already lost against Smolinski.

 

I think countbacks are a better way to decide positions t he run offs.

[Mark]

Imo countbacks are better then run offs which really isn't need. At least not if it only is between two riders. Like in this case.

They might have the same amount of points but Smolinski had two heat wins and also defeated Harris when they met,

So why should Harris get another chance? He already lost against Smolinski.

 

I think countbacks are a better way to decide positions t he run offs.

 

The only argument against yours is the gate positions when they met. Gate 4 was useless so should one rider have that gate he would be at a disadvantage. Things happen outside the riders control that determine positions. Wasnt Bomber leading a race when someone fell and then came 2nd in the re-run.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I think countbacks are a better way to decide positions t he run offs.

 

What happens in three-way tie where each rider has won a head-to-head over one of the others, and/or where riders have identical countback records?

[Ghostwalker]

What happens in three-way tie where each rider has won a head-to-head over one of the others, and/or where riders have identical countback records?

 

OK i was bit unclear

 

What I mean is that count back should be used as the primary method if it still is the same move down to the riders scores against each other

if it's still not possible to separate them the use a run off to separate the riders. But a run off shouldn't be used as the primary method of separating riders.

 

If we take Smolinski vs Harris scenario it would be like this:

1. Who has the most heat wins, 2nds, 3rd, 0s,Rs, Xs.? - Smolinski has one more heat win then Harris, Smolinski then ranks higher then Harris. If they have the same amount move down to nr2
   
2. Which of the riders finished before the other in the heat that they met? Smolinski did which would rank him higher.
   
3. Run off heat(s) to separate the riders.
   

 

This will work even with many more riders since stage one and two could separate some of them but if it still

is not possible to separate all or some of them then have run off heat(s) to separate.

 

We could do another example with 5 riders; A, B, C, D, E

1. Who has the most heat wins, 2nds, 3rd, 0s,Rs, Xs? A and B have 3 each, C and D have two each E have 1. Then E is eliminated.
   
2. Which of the riders finished before the others in the heat that they met? A vs. B and C vs. D. If E also have two heat wins it would be A vs B and C vs D vs E
   A had won over B and ís ranked highest of these 5, B is ranked second highest. If C, D and E all have one win against the other two then move on to a run off.
   If C have won over both D and E then C will be ranked third with the D and E being separated by whoever was ahead of the other in the heat where they met.
   
3. Run off.
   

 

The only argument against yours is the gate positions when they met. Gate 4 was useless so should one rider have that gate he would be at a disadvantage.

Things happen outside the riders control that determine positions. Wasnt Bomber leading a race when someone fell and then came 2nd in the re-run.

 

These a valid arguments but gate positions matter in the run off as well right?

 

If there is a run off with 4 riders, one rider will get the good gate position and someone will get the worst gate position.

And how do you decide which riders goes to which gate?

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ghostwalker

[Mark]

 

These a valid arguments but gate positions matter in the run off as well right?

 

If there is a run off with 4 riders, one rider will get the good gate position and someone will get the worst gate position.

And how do you decide which riders goes to which gate?

 

In a 2 man run off they go inside and outside. Start where you want. In a 3 man run off nobody would choose Gate 4.

 

In a 4 man run off, and I cant remember any of those before, but then one poor soul has the bogey gate.

[Humphrey Appleby]

In a 4 man run off, and I cant remember any of those before, but then one poor soul has the bogey gate.

 

Let's not even get into 5 and 6 man runoffs...

[Kreso]

Let's not even get into 5 and 6 man runoffs...

 

GP Challenge in Gorican is an example what can happen when 5 riders have same amount of points after 20 heats.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Kreso

[iris123]

Seems the German Federation are absolutely furious that they were not contacted about Dilger or Kroner taking their rightful place in the line up ahead of Harris.They have accused Castagna of being out of his depth in the job....

 

http://www.speedweek...hwerde-ein.html

Edited August 29, 2013 by iris123

[f-s-p]

Seems the German Federation are absolutely furious that they were not contacted about Dilger or Kroner taking their rightful place in the line up ahead of Harris.They have accused Castagna of being out of his depth in the job....

 

http://www.speedweek...hwerde-ein.html

I'm 100% positive that this will come back and bite me in the ärse, but... The FIM people should watch more CSI: You always get caught!

[JT]

Seems the German Federation are absolutely furious that they were not contacted about Dilger or Kroner taking their rightful place in the line up ahead of Harris.They have accused Castagna of being out of his depth in the job....

 

http://www.speedweek...hwerde-ein.html

 

The plot thickens...

 

I wonder how many riders were actually contacted before Harris was given the nod? Interesting wording in Harris' press release as well;

 

“I’m pleased I got fifth when I wasn’t even in the meeting a week beforehand."

 

I'm almost certianly reading too much into the wording, and strictly speaking it's true Harris wasn't in the meeting a week beforehand, but we were told Zagar pulled out the day before, not a 'week beforehand'. I'm sure Pavlic would have made the journey if he'd known a week in advance. When was Harris told?

 

JT.

[Humphrey Appleby]

GP Challenge in Gorican is an example what can happen when 5 riders have same amount of points after 20 heats.

 

Sure. They use a variant of the old GP knockout format, but under that you could get not just one, but two dodgy gates.

[SPEEDY69]

Seems the German Federation are absolutely furious that they were not contacted about Dilger or Kroner taking their rightful place in the line up ahead of Harris.They have accused Castagna of being out of his depth in the job....

 

http://www.speedweek...hwerde-ein.html

 

I did like the job Google translate did on this page describing "random englishman Chris Harris" - not a dig, just funny. I expect the Speedway Star will cover the subject in more depth (Philip Rising did say he would ask the SCB/BSPA at least)

Edited August 29, 2013 by SPEEDY69

[iris123]

Oh yes,i am sure Phil will get to the bottom of this and all will be revealed in the in depth item on the subject with a few statements from those in the know as usual

[spook]

DON'T think he has much if any chance of a wild card pick and, paradoxically, if he ends up as first reserve that won't help either

 

I am certain that you are more likely to have your finger on the pulse more than 99% of us Philip ........... but in the last few days you have suggested that both Bomber & Tomasz are unlikely to be receiving wild cards........... this seems to fly in the face of both logic in the case of Gollob..... and history in the case of WC's given to Brits

 

Gollob may have decided he is a part timer this year but he is still most certainly box office............. unless the Polish venue promoters for 2014 can assure IMG that Janowski, Dudek etc are as big a draw for selling tickets I just cannot see him being left out.................... more interesting for me is WHY he has decided he is a part timer this year.... what changed behind the scenes to make him half hearted? ...His machinery certainly doesnt seem to have the 'guts' that he is used to... or indeed that those young Aussies & Brit have

 

Bomber is Bomber and the question is not if he deserves it but if IMG want to take no chances with Cardiff attendance........... if not Bomber then which Brit?.... which unless IMG are about to suprise us all by being blind to nationality & quota takes us right back to Bomber vs Swede

[Ghostwalker]

Seems the German Federation are absolutely furious that they were not contacted about Dilger or Kroner taking their rightful place in the line up ahead of Harris.They have accused Castagna of being out of his depth in the job....

 

http://www.speedweek...hwerde-ein.html

 

It seems Harris was nominated on Thursday already and not Friday. If asked on Thursday many of the other riders ahead of Harris on the

reserve list would have had enough time to get themselves and their equipment to Poole in time for the meeting.

 

 

It seems that I was right after all claiming that FIM skipped the list to some extent and nominated Harris instead.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ghostwalker

[PHILIPRISING]

STILL waiting for some answers from a couple of FIM officials ...

 

However, I do know that some riders were loathed to attend the Challenge simply as meeting reserves while Harris was happy to do so. It wasn't until Zagar withdraw that he was actually included in the 16 starters.

 

IMG/BSI have been content to have just one Brit in the SGP for a while so personally see no real reason why they would want to add another to Woffinden. Bumping up the Swedish and Polish representation might be higher on their agenda.The crowd at Cardiff is not so nationalistic as those in Denmark, Sweden or especially Poland. British fans have always been prepared to support a wider selection of riders no matter what nationality and especially those who race for their club.

 

Gollob's age cannot be discounted, he isn't quite the Peter Pan that Hancock is and if Poland can leave him out of the World Cup I'm sure BSI and the FIM will think along similar lines.

[Ghostwalker]

Phiip yes we all know that Harris wasn't include until Zagar pulled out. However according to the German federation

Harris was included in the 16 rider lineup already in Thursday afternoon which means that Zagars decision had to have

been received at least by Thursday afternoon. Possibly even earlier then that.

 

This means that the official story that Zagar had pulled out on Friday doesn't hold up but rather they lied about it

because otherwise Harris wouldn't have been included in the lineup by Thursday afternoon.

 

Although I'd prefer Harris in the GPs rather then Max Dilger and Tobi Kroner but they had the right to be asked and themselves

decide if they wanted to participate or not when those ahead of them pulled out.

[spook]

STILL waiting for some answers from a couple of FIM officials ...

 

However, I do know that some riders were loathed to attend the Challenge simply as meeting reserves while Harris was happy to do so. It wasn't until Zagar withdraw that he was actually included in the 16 starters.

 

IMG/BSI have been content to have just one Brit in the SGP for a while so personally see no real reason why they would want to add another to Woffinden. Bumping up the Swedish and Polish representation might be higher on their agenda.The crowd at Cardiff is not so nationalistic as those in Denmark, Sweden or especially Poland. British fans have always been prepared to support a wider selection of riders no matter what nationality and especially those who race for their club.

 

Gollob's age cannot be discounted, he isn't quite the Peter Pan that Hancock is and if Poland can leave him out of the World Cup I'm sure BSI and the FIM will think along similar lines.

 

in the years where IMG have had one GB representative they havent had a choice Philip. They have only had Woffy & Bomber to select in recent years and have been hamstrung by poor seasons by them both making it virtually impossible to repick them the next season....... this has created almost a turn taking process............... Woffy making the top 8 as of right breaks that & for the first time in years gives them a chance to have both.

 

I am sure that if Tomasz wants to ride then his age is as much a number as it was when he last won the championship. It would be a bold and final move to leave him out........ I would have thought it would be a decision heavily influenced by those in Poland.

 

I'm not sure if IMG are as financially involved with the 2 Swedish GP's in 2014 as they are with Cardiff........ If they are then I guess their statistics could end up choosing the WC................. re: GB's Speedway rainbow nation i'd suggest those sweeping crowd shots of wall to wall union jacks that they love showing with their tv coverage might suggest otherwise.

[PHILIPRISING]

BOTH Swedish GPs run by BSI ... still unconvinced that either Gollob or Harris will get the nod but nothing more than one person's opinion. Of course, if Gollob were to win in Torun (certainly not out of the question) that might change but quite a few people within the paddock feel that his GP race is over. And what a race it was.

[JT]

Out of Britain (where he is a mid-rainking heat leader this year), I'd be interested to know how Harris is considered abroad. Here we have a rider who no Polish Ekstraliga club wants, is 21st in the Swedish Elite and was 38th in the GP qualifiers before the above chance opportunity. Yet somehow, he is being considered by some, a worthy candidate for a Grand Prix Wild Card.

 

JT.